Passing Through

[omnia1911]

2008 rule book:

9.1.5 Impenetrable – The scoring area of all USPSA scoring targets and no-shoots is deemed to be impenetrable.

If a:

9.1.5.1 Bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to strike the scoring area of another paper target, the hit on the subsequent paper target will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

9.1.5.2 Bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range equipment failure. The competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored.

9.1.5.3 Bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a paper or metal target, and continues on to strike the scoring area of another paper target, the hit on the subsequent paper target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

9.1.5.4 Bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a paper or metal target, and continues on to strike down or hit the scoring area of another metal target, the subsequent metal target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

9.5.8 Hits upon scoring or penalty paper targets, must completely pass through the target to be considered a valid hit and count for score or penalty.

A hit must pass through a target to score (9.5.8), but 9.1.5 says a target is impenetrable if the hit passes through and hits another targets. How can a target be impenetrable and have also been passed through to score, satifying 9.5.8?

Edited January 8, 2007 by omnia1911

[Vlad]

There are two different things. The issue with targets being impenetrable is there because we don't want people using funny angles to get multiple hits. Clearly cardboard does not stop bullets. Often neither do people. However to avoid a scoring nightmare, in our game targets are CONSIDERED impenetrable.

On the other hand, you can't have a dent in the paper and claim you hit it. Without a hole you can not established what hit the paper. It could have been a rock bouncing and denting the paper, it could have been an ejected case, or thumb.

I'm not exactly sure why you think these two issues are related.

[HI5-O]

The words....wholly......partially.... have a lot to do with the non--scoring or scoring.

barry

[omnia1911]

I fully understand the intent of both 9.1.5 and 9.5.8.

My point is that a target can't be both impenetrable and also require a round to pass through it to score.

Targets do not need to be "deemed impenetrable" in order to make 9.1.5 work. The rule needs to have its verbiage massaged. Impenetrable is the wrong word to use.

Edited January 8, 2007 by omnia1911

[AlamoShooter]

I have hit a steel target and had part of the bullet stick into the no shoot,= I did not get the penalty. ?Is that what you are looking for?

[chuckw]

why duplicate discussions here when all the other 2008 rules are being debated at the USPSA forum??

[mactiger]

This is a non-issue. Paper targets are in actuality "penetrable", of course. However, for scoring purposes we don't allow "pass through" bullets to score on other targets, or incur penalty points. Therefore, the paper targets are deemed "impenetrable" for the purpose of scoring other targets, not for any hits on those specific targets. The rule says that the bullet has to go completely through the paper target to be counted as a scoreable hit, which seems to fix a non-existent problem, but on very rare occasions a squib has propelled a bullet into a close target yet the projectile didn't penetrate completely, causing untold number of scoring issues, arguments, etc. All the new rule says is that the bullet must punch a hole completely through the target to score. Consider that the bullet then ceases to exist, unless it was only a partial hit.

There must be better things to worry about than this particular rule.

Troy

[omnia1911]

Words matter.

9.1.5 A bullet cannot pass through the scoring area of a USPSA scoring target or no-shoot then hit another target for score or penalty.

If a:

.....yadda, yadda ,yadda....

Seems pretty simple.

Edited January 9, 2007 by omnia1911

[shred]

This is a non-issue. Paper targets are in actuality "penetrable", of course. However, for scoring purposes we don't allow "pass through" bullets to score on other targets, or incur penalty points. Therefore, the paper targets are deemed "impenetrable" for the purpose of scoring other targets, not for any hits on those specific targets. The rule says that the bullet has to go completely through the paper target to be counted as a scoreable hit, which seems to fix a non-existent problem, but on very rare occasions a squib has propelled a bullet into a close target yet the projectile didn't penetrate completely, causing untold number of scoring issues, arguments, etc. All the new rule says is that the bullet must punch a hole completely through the target to score. Consider that the bullet then ceases to exist, unless it was only a partial hit.

There must be better things to worry about than this particular rule.

Troy

Actually Troy, you once gave me a hit on a target years ago.. I was shooting an angled target from a different angle and all the bullet did was make a nice crease across the C/D zone and off the target. Probably got about 1/2 way through the paper before it went off. I'm guessing that would no longer count? Those aren't all that uncommon on turning targets.

[mactiger]

According to the rule as I read it, that long crease would not count any longer, unless the cardboard was torn through at some point.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

How can a target be impenetrable and have also been passed through to score, satifying 9.5.8?

It's freakin' magic.

[Vlad]

My point is that a target can't be both impenetrable and also require a round to pass through it to score.

Let me try explaining it this way .. The target is impenetrable as far as scoring OTHER targets is concerned, but it must be penetraded to for scoring the target itself. Does that help?

[racerba]

Seems pretty simple.

Apparently not...

[omnia1911]

My point is that a target can't be both impenetrable and also require a round to pass through it to score.

Let me try explaining it this way .. The target is impenetrable as far as scoring OTHER targets is concerned, but it must be penetraded to for scoring the target itself. Does that help?

A virtual hole, or non-hole; much like the mysteries of the perfect double.

Words matter.

Take the word freestyle. When it was adopted the Laws of Unintended Consequences took over. A slow retreat from a pure freestyle concept has been underway since, with many passionate arguments being made in its defense from the membership. The rule book still states the USPSA is freestyle, not semi-freestyle, sort of freestyle, or freestylish. Any changes that the BOD attempts to make to the rule book that "challenges" the freestyle rule will end up butting heads with the membership.

Words matter in the rules, and words matter in the stage procedures we write.

Words are one of the tools that a gamer uses. Choose them wisely.

Edited January 9, 2007 by omnia1911

[Vlad]

I'm still not sure what you are so upset about. I recommend you bring this issue up on the USPSA forums.

I would like to point out that if you are upset about the words used then your propsosed wording ("9.1.5 A bullet cannot pass through the scoring area of a USPSA scoring target or no-shoot then hit another target for score or penalty.") also has some problems. A bullet cleary CAN pass through the scoring are and hit another target. Words matter. Note that the existing rules "deemed impenetrable", the rule book doesn't actually claim they are, they are just considered as such for the purposes of scoring other targets.

[Flexmoney]

Those magic bullets don't know the words.

("Impenetrable", isn't the argument to make. "Wholly" and "completely" are the possible areas of conflict. But, go talk about that on the USPSA Forum, where it may do some good.)

[omnia1911]

Partially or wholly impenetrable makes no difference to me.

The problematic word is "impenetrable". Targets are clearly being penetrated and the target that the bullet then hits is scored (9.1.5.3, 9.1.5.4).

Edited January 9, 2007 by omnia1911

[richardschennberg]

According to the Galactic Encyclopedia, entry 1374b:

"After passing through a paper target, bullets jump into an alternate universe where they are recycled as lead and copper for self-replicating robots."

[LPatterson]

The trolls are attacking.

MODS please close this.