Little poppers...

[Ron Ankeny]

I really dislike the idea of having small poppers directly behind large poppers with no other targets in the array to engage while you wait for the big popper to fall. It seems to introduce an element of luck to a game of skill. If the hinge binds, your popper is set heavy from movement, etc., you either need to shoot it multiple times in the upper portion or just wait.

Am I all washed up? What do you think? Good or poor design?

[Flexmoney]

Any time you have to wait on props it is a bad thing in my book.

Perhaps we should hammer them down as part of the balance of Accuracy, POWER, & Speed

I'd rather see the stage designers give us something to shoot at while we wait for props to do their thing.

[ErikW]

The problem with stuff behind poppers is people start hosing them down trying to get them to go down faster. The first one or two turn it into a bullet ramp and the remaining rounds skip up and over the backstop.

[Nolan]

Anyone actually time a falling popper to see if multiple hits really reduce the hang time?  Personally I think you're better off hitting the big popper once, then using the hang time to acquire a good sight picture and shooting the hidden popper JUST over the top of the falling big popper.

[Steve Anderson]

As long as all shooters face the same challenge...I don't care.

Now, I would like to hear more about the multiple shots good or bad experiment.

SA

[jhgtyre]

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Quote: from Steve Anderson on 4:50 am on Sep. 18, 2002

As long as all shooters face the same challenge...I don't care.

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Ditto

[BSeevers]

On that stage, as described, I would double or triple tap the big popper, depending on distance. I could list spilts but if you think it out it makes sense. I would also shoot the top portion of the little popper as soon as I see it. I do and have seen super squad many times "speed" up a stage by doubling a popper. I did it at the AL state this year, on the second array, on kind of a "mirror" field course. I was up first of day(Hadn't shot for 7 months so time judging skills were rusty) on the stage so really couldnt watch anyone run and when I got to the second position I shot the activator popper twice, 2 targets, then the mover. If you are waiting to shoot ,99% of the time you are wasting precious time. Now that depends on your skill level.

(Edited by BSeevers at 9:53 am on Sep. 18, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

"As long as all shooters face the same challenge...I don't care. "

Man, I kinda hate that one.  I think it comes from the old guard at the ranges we shoot at.  Kinda Like, "if your shooting all A's then you are shooting too slow"...hmmmm, not always.  Those statements sound logical when we hear them, but as I search for more truth, I tend to dismiss most of the "range logic".

Let pretend for a second...

Here is your shooting array...a line of poppers, one right behind the other.  The shooter is restricted in such a way that they cannot get to the side to see, and shoot, any popper except for the firts in the line...you gotta wait for the front popper to fall to engage the next one.

Now, lets take shooters at different skill levels...say Brian Enos, myself, and any C shooter that has learned to call their shoot.  We are all at very different levels in the game...so we should have vastly different times on this array.  What I think you will find is that the difference in our times will be msotly limited to our first shot (for instance, the draw).  This, in my opinion, ends up as prop stage.  The Grand Master Champion waits the same amount of time for the popper to fall as the A-class shooter...as the C-class shooter.  And...the array could be four poppers or it could be 15 poppers.

Good stage design gives the upper-level shooters something to do while they wait for the stage props.  It rewards them for all the time and practice that they have put in.  Good stage design seperates the classes.

[Flexmoney]

On hammering the popper down...I am with BillS.  It does depend on your level.  It might be a good idea for some to hit the activator, then get set up for the next target.  Others can get away with hammering and then transitioning to the next target more quickly.  (The Burner talks about this on his tapes.)  Hammering does make the steel go down faster though.  

[Ron Ankeny]

"As long as all shooters face the same challenge...I don't care. "

Depending on how the big popper is set, it might go right down, or it might hang up. There is no way to calibrate a popper to gurantee that it will fall the same, with comparable hits, for all shooters. A slow popper can cost you .75 seconds on the fall and another .25 (or more) in attention adjusting to the glitch. A second or more lost on props on a short course sucks.

Flexmoney:

We have guys designing stages who strive to slow the fast shooters down and to level the playing field. That is the purpose behind lining steel up, placing only an activator and a penalty mover in an array, etc. I am tired of arguing with them. I suppose the slower shooters feel better about themselves if they can compete with better shooters through course design instead of practice.

[BSeevers]

Ron,

I am not sure what the MD means with setting up to even the playing field. Usually if the best shooter can draw and shoot 3 targets at 5 yards in 2.0 sec, etc. and win he or she will also win the draw and fire on 3 partial targets at 35 yards stages? Its not as "exciting" to watch an accuracy biased stage but still should be more challenging to a C vs a M. I guess there are people who have speed as their only skill. They might win a couple locals, if no-one good is shooting, but will get "ate up" around most larger matches or even most clubs with decent shooters. This game requires speed and accuracy, eventually, to win. I hate matches biased either way.

[Ron Ankeny]

Oh my, what have I started?

I should have put this in the hate thread and just said I hate crappy course design and the introduction of luck into an otherwise game of skill.

[BSeevers]

I am with you. I am just trying to give reasons for MD to NOT design bad courses.

I agree about the "luck" thing. This year at some matches, including at Nationals there was a FAST spinning targets appearing at windows for a split second. Since you could not see its pre-motion you held your gun in a spot at fired when you saw it. It was luck shot and probably not a good idea as most people squeezed off a few extra since they had no way of calling their shot. Kind of like the lottery

[Steve Anderson]

Flex,

Your example is a good one, but it assumes that all three shooters will shoot at precisely their skill level...no better or worse.

Brian Enos aint gonna miss, we know that. But he might or might not hammer the first steel multiple times.

You know you shouldn't miss, but you might (after watching Brian's run) decide that you should make up some time on the draw, blow your first shot, then struggle for a sight picture.

Your c-class shooter might have just learned to call his shots and not miss anything.

A stage like this tests our pre-conceived notions of easy or hard shots.

Also, if they are in a row, why couldn't our GM blast all the front ones, then go back and blast all the back ones?

(BTW, I just realized that any time I categorize a shot as easy or hard, I don't shoot my best. They're just shots.)

SA

[Flexmoney]

Sorry...I should re-word.

No front row and back row....maybe think of the poppers as all lined up in a single column, one directly behind the next.  And, for sake of comparison...assume everybody shoots at 100% of their level.

I have more examples...maybe I'll bore you with them on the way to Pittsburgh.

They main idea is to give the upper level shooters something to shoot...don't make them wait on the stage props.

[Duane Thomas]

"This year at some matches, including at Nationals there was a FAST spinning targets appearing at windows for a split second. Since you could not see its pre-motion you held your gun in a spot at fired when you saw it. It was luck shot and probably not a good idea as most people squeezed off a few extra since they had no way of calling their shot."

If you're talking about the Factory Nats, I know the stage you're talking about, Stage 17. But I don't think that was a luck shot, and the only people firing extra shots just weren't up to the challenge of KNOWING they'd hit. I was lucky enough to be watching the Super Squad on that stage, and every one of them fired two shots, two hits. That doesn't sound like luck to me. Their technique, on a target that fast (and this blew my mind) was to NOT try hammering two fast shots at the swinger, but to shoot it once, then just wait for it to come back to shoot it again. It sounds like a lot of wasted time, but if you watched them, it just showed amazing control, and an impressive knowledge of what they could and couldn't do.

[BSeevers]

I remember I did take individual shots at that also. I took 3 with 2 hits. Bad example. I still think it was not a good target. You did not shoot the club matches I am referring to so I can't refer to them. I think stages should be designed so the average C shooter be able to do it, maybe slow or extra shots. I love challenges and am not asking for easier stages for me. I just think this should be the basic philosphy of MDing.

If we want we could design droppers, movers and stages that only Jerry and Rob could do. That was the context I made the previous statement in about I don't like luck stages.  

[Flexmoney]

I know the local swinger target that Bill is referring to.  It will likely be use at THE Ohio match, though I am lobbying to see if we can get it moving slower (and make sure it runs fine).  It is fast and has only been presented in a narrow window as far as I know.

I don't think it is a bad target...it is different than the norm, for sure.

[BSeevers]

I thought about that mover at Rayners after the match and probably should have taken 2 shots and went on. I think I took 4 or 5 shots. This could have been higher HF if I had done it with 2.  This is assuming I get 1 hit, 2 is better. Now a lower hit factor stage, read farther targets, would require getting your hits.

Don't worry I won't do that at THE OH sectional. Big matches require different stragedy. It will be a harder, read lower HF stage, anyway

I think its a bad target that should be punished

[Steve Anderson]

Bill,

If you want to punish it, you'll likely get your chance.

(what other sport lets you blow away things you don't like?)

Flex,

I get your drift, but I still think a stage like that tests patience and relaxation. (remember the donut?) It might look like luck, but really is a matter of calming down and getting hits. Since most of us tend to get more uptight at repeated misses (ego ouch) the more we miss the more we'll miss.

We're really being tasked with firing 5 or 8 accurate, fairly slow shots without missing. Realistically we can all do that.

And I don't think 3 guys of developing skill levels will ever all shoot their real skill level at the same time. The mental game prevents it. Even the top GMs have mental issues that can impede performance.

(that's one of the reasons our classifier scores vary so much as we develop)

Maybe I like them because I don't worry about having to find the ultimate strategery to do well. After all, it's only one stage. A whole match like that...I'm right there with ya.

SA

PS, a better shooter could also speed up by smacking the tops right as they come into view. This will be dramatically quicker than the guy who doesn't call his shots and has to wait for falling confirmation.

[Ron Ankeny]

Steve:

Flex's example is a good one. We have 4 years worth of data from a local steel shoot to support what he is saying.

One of our courses is indeed a row of little poppers hiding behind big poppers, in a straight line, with no other targets to engage.

I have seen C class shooters record decent times in the morning with virtually no wind. In the afternoon, A and Master class shooters have lost to C class (morning shooters) because of a stiff wind that slows the action of the poppers, or requires multiple hits.

For those of us who shoot a lot, practice religiously, and have a bit of the warrior instinct, a level playing field means course design that is not dependent on "luck" or other variables. I think that concept is just lost on the course designer.

(Edited by Ron Ankeny at 1:31 pm on Sep. 19, 2002)

[jhgtyre]

Yuck!  What a horrible sounding stage.  When I ditto'd the idea of everyone having to shoot the same challenge being okay I certainly didn't have an awful stage like that in mind!  

[Flexmoney]

D-oh...I meant to mention the wind thing too.  Good point Ron.

Ok...gotta use some imagination on the shooting at 100% stuff.  It's ok, for comparison, to assume that different level shooters will perform to their best ability.  When studying any complex problem, with many variables, you have to assume that all the other variables remain constant so that you can study the effect of the variable in question.

If it helps...think of 100 (or even 1000, if we had that many) Grand Master shooters (95% or better), think of an equally large number of A-class shooters (75-85%), and an eqaully large number of C-class shooters (>60%).  Assume everybody has mastered the technique of calling the shot.

Some stage designs will be such that the seperation of the classes isn't as great as the shooter's skill levels would dictate...due to stage design holding up the highier level shooter.

Another example...

Imagine a race...you vs. Carl Lewis.  The course is a series of walls, spaced every 50 yards.  The race starts with you and Carl activating the start signal...which starts the first wall dropping.  The wall takes 15 seconds to drop. Once it drops it allows you to race to the next wall.

Now, Carl Lewis will likely be able to out run just about any person in the world to the wall...say he can get there in 5 seconds.  It may take you 8-12 seconds to get to the wall.  But, it doesn matter..because neither runner can proceed until the 15 seconds has passed and the wall has dropped.

In that example...the fastest person doesn't get the opportunity to use his speed...even though it is a race.

[Flexmoney]

One of the non-sanctioned matches that I shoot often has a donut  with six or so poppers lined up that have to be shot throught the hole.  This match only allows the shooter to load eight in the gun.  So, you can't risk even a couple of hammers...you might need the extra rounds in case of a miss (and you don't want to have to do a standing reload).  The best you can do on this target array is to clean it.  It doesn't take a GM to do so.

As a matter of fact, their whole match has similar limitations.  I can't recall any shooting on the move there, for example.  There are skill sets that never get tested at this match.  I can't hardly stand to shoot the match...I get bored.

[BSeevers]

Kyle

Perfect example about what we are saying.

PS

What club is that? Yuck. Sounds almost socialistic Well don't take this cocky statement too cocky. I might shoot it and hammer and re-load. depends on distance Probably don't allow raceguns do they?