What Gun?

[Lee Bell]

I've been shooting for fun and self defense practice for a long time. I started with wheel guns, most of which I still have, and moved to autoloaders 20 or so years ago. I've purchased several guns in the last year and am not entirely happy with most of them for the kind of shooting I do. I have a Glock 23 for defense purposes and a modified Colt 1911 for bullseye shooting. No problem with those. I'm not a praticularly accurate pistol shooter, but I'm working on it.

I bought a H&K USP Compact for target and combat shooting that isn't working out as planned. I have a friend interested in it for personal defense and will try to work somthing out that works for both of us. I bought a brand new Colt Gold Cup .45 that, so far, has been very unsatisfactory. The front sight was broken when it left the factory and the slide was sloppy as hell. It went back to Colt and a month and a half later, it came back with a new front sight that was so loose you can wiggle it with your finger. The slide appears to have been tightened some, but is still not as tight as the one in my 20 year old Delta Elite. Having shot a gun with a good trigger job since buying the Gold Cup, I also realized that its trigger has a rough spot in it just before it breaks. The gun's not going back to Colt again. It's in the hands of a respected local gunsmith for another front sight replacement and to touch up the slight, but noticable rought spot. I expect to like the gun when I get it back, but I'll probably never get over the problems it had out of the box, the time it took Colt to get around to addressing them or their failure to fix them before returning the gun to me.

I have an older Colt Delta Elite that, with the trigger job I rencently had done, is probably my favorite gun for action shooting sports. Unfortunately, it's a 10mm. I spend almost as much time worrying about where my brass is landing as I do shooting. I'm one of only two people in my club shooting 10mm for any purpose and I'm having to buy new 10mm brass to replace losses rather than picking up what non reloaders leave behind.

I have both a Beretta 92-F (wife's gun) and a recent production 92 FS Vertec (my gun), both dead stock, for home defense. I like them for home defense, particularly because, should she ever have to use a gun for personal defense, she doesn't have to worry about which one she picks up. They work the same.

My recent experiences have shown me that I like 1911 style guns as well or better than anything else I've fired and that I don't like Glock triggers. I dont' have a problem with my G 23 for carry purposes, but the trigger mounted safety and the trigger it's mounted in, wear a hole in my finger if I shoot as little as 50 rounds in a single session. I often shoot a couple hundred a day, more than once a week. I'm inclinded to say that Glock is out as a competitive gun for me, but I'll listen to those that think I sould reconsider.

OK, that's about as much background as I can think of on this subject. I currently shoot a fun PPC course at my club. Shots at 7, 15, 25 and 50 yards are included. Neither optical sights nor any kind of compenstation are allowed. There does not seem to be a power factor, trigger pull limit or much of any other limits applied except for sights and compensation, but there probably are such rules that should be applied and probably will be if I shoot similar events with other clubs, something I'm likely to do in the near future. Maximum rounds in a magazine is limited to 6. Several segments require one or more reloads. I hand load my own ammunition in 9mm, .357, .44 magnum, .45 (target, hardbal and defensive), .40 and 10mm. I'm not even a little reluctant to add one or more calibers to my reloading list.

That's what I'm doing now. In the future, I plan to participate in other action shooting sports, possibly with more than one organization. My expectation at the moment is that I'll stick with some kind of iron sights in an uncompensated, stock appearing 1911 style weapon. Beyond that, I'm open to suggestion. Assuming that price is not a significant barrier, here's what I'd like informed opinions on:

1. What caliber should I be looking at and why. What's most popular, versitile, reliable, etc.

2. What make should I be looking at, either out of the box or for planned modifications.

3. If there's nothing out of the box that will be right, what modifications should I consider and who should I contact to have them done?

4. When It's all said and done, what competitive classes will the gun be suitable for?

I know this is a rather comprehensive question that may be difficult to respond to without some decision, on my part, as to the kind of competition I'll actually participate in, but it's the best I can do for now. I'm just really tired of making expensive mistakes and would, for once, like to improve my chances of making a choice I won't regret immediately after buying a new gun.

Lee

PS: I handled a $2,000+ 1911 .45 by Smith and Wesson's Performance Center. There's an article on this gun at http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/peak_011805/. I'm no expert, but it felt as good as it looked, had the best trigger, out of the box, that I've ever touched, and was tight as a drum everywhere. If anyone here has experience with this particular gun, fell free to include it in the thread.

[HSMITH]

I would look long and hard at an STI built in an Eagle configuration, but I would have it built by a custom gunsmith. I would have it built in 40, and keep it IDPA legal. The gun would be fine for PPC, IDPA in ESP, USPSA in Limited and Limited 10, 3-gun, and probably some others I am not familiar with. I would talk to Benny Hill at Triangle Shooting Sports about building it. His guns are accurate, reliable and his trigger work is world class.

You could also do the same gun in a single stack configuration and substitute Single Stack for Limited if the wide body grip doesn't suit you.

[ihatepickles]

Lee,

You're obviously a researcher. Figure out what sport you want to shoot and go crazy. If you're looking for a 1911 singlestack or widebody then I'd look at what STI has to offer and buy it from a gunsmith with an STI connection like Brazos or Dawson. They're go over the gun before they send it out and can tweak it however you'd like it.

I wouldn't buy anything without knowing what you're going to use it for. I would definately read the USPSA rules as well as the IDPA rules. Here's a rundown of the USPSA divisions:

USPSA

• Limited - Look for a high capacity .40 caliber pistol like an STI Edge. If you live in a state that allows high cap mags this is a great division to learn the sport. Most people shooting this division run 20 or 21 rounds in the magazine.
  
• Limited 10 - Same as Limited with a magazine restriction, you can only have 10 rounds in the magazine. Lim-10 can be hard on a newer shooter because of all the magazine changes, you need to learn mag changes regardless but I try and get new shooters into Limited instead. Some people shoot Lim-10 with a widebody like an STI Edge or a singlestack tradition 1911 with 10 rorund magazines.
  
• Singlestack - must be a singlestack 1911 gun with a bushing barrel (no bull or coned barrels). 8 rounds in the magazine for major power factor shooters. This has the same drawbacks as Lim-10, low mag capacity means you really have to learn to love mag changes at a point in the game when you're struggling to take in a lot of other info. This division's rules are still being formed, anything you buy specifically for this division could be made obsolete with rule changes in 1 year. A good pistol for this division would be an STI Trojan or Spartan. Lots of folks shoot Colts, Springfields, and Kimbers in this division too - I'd prefer the STI though.
  

I'm not going to say Lim-10 and Singlestack aren't fun, they're lots of fun with the caveat that you'll be focusing a bit more on the reloads.

Knowing what division you're interested in will narrow this advice down a ton. Go to local matches with guns you already own. Learn about scoring and safety, etc... and that will help form some better questions which will help you buy a nice gun without making buyer's mistakes.

[jasmap]

+1 on the STI Eagle in .40S&W. It will be a versatile gun for you.

[outerlimits]

MK 15 Phalanx Close-In Weapons System (CIWS)

[Brian Payne]

I do not shoot IDPA, for everything else. No question.

Benny Hill, Triangle Shooting Sports (www.triangleshootingsports.com). 6" Fat Free .40 S&W.

Makes Glock Perfection seem not so perfect .

[BSeevers]

I was going to say Dilion Aero but the phalanx would be fun.

Kind of hard because on one hand you want "the best gun with no limits" then you state price is a possible barrier. They don't go together. We also need to know what sports you want to shoot in. PPC is different from IPSC you could use the same guns but most don't. A basically stock Glock( or at least one that probably had $900 in it or less) was used to win the 06 Limited USPSA Nationals against guys shooting "no limit" $2900 STI's and the like.

Since you want a 1911 that does narrow it down. A STI built by a good smith is light years ahead of one bought from STI. Same goes for about any gun you can name although I would spend my 2K with a custom 1911 long before Smith's. HSMITH gives very sage advice above too.

Now what happens if you get the Open bug? Decide Bullseye is your thing. Want to be a champion ICORE gunner.

For the time being play around and shoot what you got til you know what you want to do.

I will say if you want to be good, pick one and stick with it and practice.

Edited December 27, 2006 by BSeevers

[Lee Bell]

I was going to say Dilion Aero but the phalanx would be fun.

Interesting choices, but not practical. I'm too old to carry enough ammunition to make it interesting.

Kind of hard because on one hand you want "the best gun with no limits" then you state price is a possible barrier.

I believe what I said is that "assuming price is not a significant barrier." Of course, cost and benefit are always considerations, but I've already spent several thousand dollars on guns that proved unsatisfactory. Getting something that's just right may cost that much or more, but if it's right, it's still a better deal. I don't mind paying a higher price for better results, but I'm not anxious to see how much I can spend on poor results either.

We also need to know what sports you want to shoot in. PPC is different from IPSC you could use the same guns but most don't. A basically stock Glock( or at least one that probably had $900 in it or less) was used to win the 06 Limited USPSA Nationals against guys shooting "no limit" $2900 STI's and the like.

Other than the fact that I like 1911 style guns and action shooting in general, I don't know what kind of competition I'll shoot in. That was part of the question. I assume that all the action shooting organizations offer something for 1911 style weapons with minimum obvious modifications.

Since you want a 1911 that does narrow it down. A STI built by a good smith is light years ahead of one bought from STI. Same goes for about any gun you can name although I would spend my 2K with a custom 1911 long before Smith's. HSMITH gives very sage advice above too.

The idea of going to a custom smith is looking better all the time. It was a bit of a shock to realize that I could get a gun built specifically for me at a price comparable to what I might pay for something like the S&W Performance Center guns. Assuming a good smith, something I don't know enough to be sure of, I suspect that I'd be well ahead by doing so. Do you have someone in mind?

I'll look above as soon as I can. I can't while responding to your message.

Now what happens if you get the Open bug? Decide Bullseye is your thing. Want to be a champion ICORE gunner.

Included in the original question is that I have a suitable bullseye gun. Actually, I have a couple. One, a Browning Buckmark .22 is probably going to be replaced. It's accurate enough, but I'm not accurate enough with it. I'll keep it for plinking and experiment with other options until I find one I like. The other, a Jim Rose built 1911 .45 suits me well. If it were not for the fact that I understand Jim is no longer building custom guns, I might be talking to him about this instead of the forum.

As for open, I'm probably beyond being that competitive. I may be wrong, but I figure being competitive at the higher levels is for those a bit younger than me. I'm coming up on my 59th birthday. I don't move or see as well as I once did. That doesn't mean I don't want to play.

For the time being play around and shoot what you got til you know what you want to do. I will say if you want to be good, pick one and stick with it and practice.

Picking one is what I'm looking for help on. I've been through several that simply are not right for me. The most disappointing of the bunch was the new Gold Cup I purchased a couple of months ago. It went back to Colt, they botched the repairs and it's now in a local gunshop for repair of the Colt repairs. Other guns that failed to meet my needs, did so because I chose poorly. They're not poor guns, they're just not right for me. A Glock is one of them. I don't know what it is about my hands, but the trigger on a Glock wears on the bottom of my trigger finger, getting very uncomfortable very quickly. Pain does not enhance my concentration.

I'm going to expand my shooting activities, but I've got quite a ways to go before I am what I would consider good, let alone what I'd consider competitive with those that are really good. It's always more fun, and usually more efficient, to practice with what you'll shoot, which is why I asked in the first place.

Lee

I must admit that I'm a bit surprised by the responses to this question. So far, .40 caliber seems to be the caliber of choice. Frankly, I expected recommendations for .38 super, a caliber I know little or nothing about, but have heard of repeatedly in forums like this.

What do you guys know that I'm missing?

Lee

[hitman]

+1 on the Dillon Aero.

Go with a 40 and a stock STI Eagle.

You can upgrade or have it tuned when you decide where you want to go with it.

[Merlin Orr]

Here is a good place to look and see what others are using in USPSA Limited and Limited 10 divisions.

[BSeevers]

Lee

You are a very thoughtful and analytical person but still we don't know what "Action" you want. I think Bianchi is boring and its called Action Pistol. IDPA and IPSC are different versions of the same animal. Bowling Pins floats a lot of peoples boats. Steel Challenge is action. So are bootleg tactical matches. Seriously come on out and play and I'll bet what you would buy today is much different than what you would buy after 6 months in IPSC or what not.

We have classes so you are competitive in Open or IDPA Sharpshooter. You are shooting against people in your class. Don't worry about speed demons. Guess what they are in IDPA/Limited and Bowling Pins.

38 Super is for Open IPSC or a IDPA specialized ESP gun only.

While there are quite a few bad smiths there are a great number of good ones. They could even take your Gold Cup and make it a $2500 gun at a greatly reduced price. I can name names but just ask around or do a search on this forum. Ask the person who is the best shooter in the area. Probably their smith is one reason they are.

[HSMITH]

Lee, a Jim Rose bullseye gun is about as good as it gets!!

Most of the posters are leaning to 40 for two reasons, it is legal per the rules for major power factor in USPSA, and it is the caliber that will afford the most magazine capacity. Smaller calibers are not eligible for major power factor scoring outside of Open division. Side benefits are that reloading costs are generally decent, brass costs are low, it can easily and safely be loaded to major PF, and it can easily and safely be loaded well under major PF if you want.

There are probably a dozen or so really well regarded gunsmiths for action pistols that gather most of the business. There are a dozen at least 'regional' guys that build fantastic guns too. There is a solid couple days reading on gunsmiths here in these forums if you use the search function. I know this to be true, that is how I selected the man to build the last full custom gun I bought.

Then there are 'semi' custom guns from Brazos, Dawson and probably others that have a very strong following.

I have had a few full custom guns, and a few in the 'semi' class. Of all of them the one Benny Hill built for me is the finest in terms of fitting, accuracy and reliability. If it is reasonably clean and fed reasonably good ammo it is very accurate and as reliable as the atomic clock. I have shot and looked at some from other custom builders that are very very nice also. The search function will turn up a relatively short list, and a conversation or two on the phone with each of them should give you all the information you need to make a good decision.

[George]

Any world class smith you feel good using will turn you out the gun of your dreams and probably even be willing to make all the suggestions for you if you just give him a nice price tag to work with ;-)

Seriously, it is likely that a custom 2011 type gun of some type and probably .40 but maybe not will be where you wind up. I say pick a smith (near you is better, but not required) and just start talkin'.

[Lee Bell]

Lee, a Jim Rose bullseye gun is about as good as it gets!!

Thanks. One of the guys I shoot with bought it from a championship quality bullseye shooter in my club and, because he had more than one bullseye .45, sold it to me on a trade/cash deal. He kept the one that looked better. I'm pretty sure I got the one that shoots better. I know that the shooter's skills are more important than the gun he shoots, but that Jim Rose gun definitely improved my results. It also taught me what a good trigger is supposed to feel like, something I'd not experienced previously.

Most of the posters are leaning to 40 for two reasons, it is legal per the rules for major power factor in USPSA, and it is the caliber that will afford the most magazine capacity. Smaller calibers are not eligible for major power factor scoring outside of Open division. Side benefits are that reloading costs are generally decent, brass costs are low, it can easily and safely be loaded to major PF, and it can easily and safely be loaded well under major PF if you want.

That's good information, thanks. Until I asked, I didn't see a lot about .40 for competition. I'm glad I asked. I currently enjoy shooting a Colt Delta Elite 10mm in club PPC matches. I handload Zero 180 grain JHPs over 5.8 grains of Bullseye for an average MV of 1041 and a PF of 187. That's more than it takes for major, but I didn't build the load for competition. I built it for defense. I'll build something still hotter for the gun's original purpose, a backup to permanently discourage angry hogs in the Everglades. I can see why people like the .40 caliber when loaded to just over major PF. The problem with the 10mm versus the .40 is, of course, the cost of brass. As you note, .40 brass is easy to get. In fact, I have a couple of law enforcement sources that will provide me with as much as I can ever use. I have about 4,000 once fired cases right now. Alas, I'm out of .40/10mm bullets. More are on order. My carry gun is a Glock 23. I load the same 180 grain JHPs over 5 grains of Bullseye for an average MV of 949 and a PF of 170. I assume that's about right for competition. Am I right?

There are probably a dozen or so really well regarded gunsmiths for action pistols that gather most of the business. There are a dozen at least 'regional' guys that build fantastic guns too. There is a solid couple days reading on gunsmiths here in these forums if you use the search function. I know this to be true, that is how I selected the man to build the last full custom gun I bought.

Thanks. I'll do the search. Part of my problem is my location. I live in South Florida. If there's a "well regarded" gunsmith here, I'm not aware of it. I've only just found one or two that I trust for relatively ordinary work, repairing Colt's mistakes for example. I'm gaining knowledge about what the right gun will be like, both by shooting, research and in discussions like this, but I'm not there yet. I need trustworthy advice if I'm to stand a chance to get it right the next time I part with my hard earned money. I would be so much easier if the builder and I could spend some time coming up with just the right combination.

Benny's name has turned up more than once. I'm not familiar with his work, but it's obvious some experienced shooters are. I'll put his name on my short list of smiths to consider.

Thanks for responding.

Lee

[Lee Bell]

Here is a good place to look and see what others are using in USPSA Limited and Limited 10 divisions.

Thanks. I've looked there before, but learn more each time. This time I managed to notice the extended magazines. I presume these are to allow 10 rounds in a gun originally manufactured for less.

Lee

[ihatepickles]

The caliber you choose is largely dependent on the division or sport you choose to shoot. If you get involved in USPSA then you'll usually see near solidarity within each division as far as the caliber they shoot.

In Limited division, to make major the bullet must be .40/10mm or larger. Since more .40 cal fits in the magazine vs. .45 it's the usual choice.

In Limited-10 .40 is still really common for the same reasons mentioned in Limited but you see some .45 due to readily available 10 round 1911 magazines.

In Singlestack, the provisional rules say the pistol can only have 8 rounds for major power factor and 10 rounds for minor. In Singlestack .40 and .45 are commonly found.

The reason (I'm guessing) .38 super crossed your mind is lots of Open division shooters use this caliber. In Open division a shooter can make major with a smaller bullet, .355 (.38 super, supercomp, 9mm Major, etc...). The Open shooters use the .355 bullets vs. .40 so that they can hold more rounds in the magazine.

Edited December 28, 2006 by ihatepickles

[Lee Bell]

You are a very thoughtful and analytical person . . .

Yes, but in this case, my analysis is more a result of having made a series of mistakes than my natural analytical nature.

. . . but still we don't know what "Action" you want. I think Bianchi is boring and its called Action Pistol. IDPA and IPSC are different versions of the same animal. Bowling Pins floats a lot of peoples boats. Steel Challenge is action. So are bootleg tactical matches. Seriously come on out and play and I'll bet what you would buy today is much different than what you would buy after 6 months in IPSC or what not.

Simply put, I enjoy shooting and I enjoy competition. I'm a fair shot with a rifle, better than average with a shotgun, but not much of a pistol shooter, at least by bullseye standards. I do much better at relatively short distances in somewhat less precision environments. I briefly tried IPSC somewhere around 20 years ago, back when the rules strongly favored 8 round .45 shooters. I've been known to knock bowling pins off tables for fun as well. Everything is very changed since those days and, frankly, the details of current action offerings are often much less than clear. Too many people assume too much knowledge of the terms and buzzwords. That's fine for those that are already involved, not so good for those who are trying to decide what to get involved in. 2008 rule changes for USPSA, including new production gun rules, don't make things any easier, particularly when they appear to be available only on a members only site. There's a fair chance that some of the very minor modifications I've made to guns I currently shoot will violate some of those rules. Most uncool.

We have classes so you are competitive in Open or IDPA Sharpshooter. You are shooting against people in your class. Don't worry about speed demons. Guess what they are in IDPA/Limited and Bowling Pins.

I'll look for some in my area. The biggest problem with that is that it will force me to use one of the public ranges. That's an issue on two levels, cost and operation. I abandoned those same ranges because they are just too restrictive and formal for my needs. Given the range of experience of their customers, I guess they have to be, but I greatly prefer the must less formal and flexible environment of my club range, particularly when testing new hand loads. It proved almost impossible to chrono a variety of rounds on a range that calls the line cold on a fixed schedule. The fact that shooting at my club only costs me $100 a year plus whatever time I can spare to help with maintenance is a significant benefit for someone that shoots two or three times a week.

Lee

[ihatepickles]

...Everything is very changed since those days and, frankly, the details of current action offerings are often much less than clear. Too many people assume too much knowledge of the terms and buzzwords. That's fine for those that are already involved, not so good for those who are trying to decide what to get involved in.

I agree Lee. People are asking you about your interests so that they can tailor their advice to you. If folks posted a large volume of information in an area you're not interested in, then that's a lot of wasted typing. For instance you mentioned you wanted to stick with 1911's, so folks aren't posting a lot of Production division advice because 1911's and all single action only pistols aren't allowed in Production division.

2008 rule changes for USPSA, including new production gun rules, don't make things any easier, particularly when they appear to be available only on a members only site. There's a fair chance that some of the very minor modifications I've made to guns I currently shoot will violate some of those rules. Most uncool.

The rules discussion is restricted to USPSA members. If you're already a member then you have the necessary to participate in the forum. If you're not a member and would just like to read the rules, that's no restricted. USPSA Rules includes the newly posted draft rules from 2008.

I didn't understand what you meant about being required to go to public ranges to get involved. I don't go to public ranges anymore and I don't miss out on anything. Do you know how to locate local USPSA or IDPA clubs in your area? Both websites have local club locater tools. If you let us know where you live, we'll even do that bit of research for you and get you in touch with your local shooters.

[38superman]

Lee,

You have to start somewhere.

Since you seem to gravitate toward the 1911 platform I will suggest this.

Start your action pistol career with a good 1911 Single Stack in .40 or .45

Your 10mm would work but has a lot of recoil and ammo is cost prohibitive.

I would suggest a high end single stack 1911 such as an STI Trojan or comparable Springfield-Armory model. You could pick up a new STI Spartan for as little as $650

Either would be fine for competition out of the box without investing a small fortune.

A good smith can make enhancements to them as far as your wallet will take you if you are so inclined.

This route would permit you to shoot IDPA or IPSC.

If you choose IPSC, you can shoot in the Single Stack Division or get some 10 round mags and shoot in Limited 10.

This is where many IPSC shooters started, myself included.

Once you have been competing for a while you will figure out if you want to stay in the division where you started or move into one of the high cap divisions.

That would be the time to start thinking about the ultimate gun.

When you get to that point you won't need anyone else to tell you what it is.

You will know.

Tony

[Lee Bell]

For instance you mentioned you wanted to stick with 1911's, so folks aren't posting a lot of Production division advice because 1911's and all single action only pistols aren't allowed in Production division.

Except as specifically mentioned, everything below is based on the proposed 2008 rule book. I come back to the current rules at the end.

I found a route to the USPSA rules and divisions. I actually came back here to ask if my understanding of production was correct, that it did not allow single action only pistols such as my 1911 variants. As I understand Production division, it's for double/single action, double action only and safe action (Glocks and the like) with a single power factor designation. No major PF. In other words, my stock Beretta 92 F, 92 FS (9mm) and Glock 23 (.40) would all be acceptable in this division. I presume, in stock form, trigger pull on each would comply. Trigger work, such as polishing, is OK as long as the double action pull is no less than 3 lbs. There's no limit on single action (after the first shot with the Berettas) trigger pull except, of course, that it be safe. Right?

I don't fully understand the sight restriction. It is more specific than in other classes, stating "knotch and post only." Does that rule out light gathering fiber optic sights that are part of the front post, ramps with or without colored inserts, or what? This is a significant issue for those of us with older eyes.

I'm not sure this is the division I would like best, but it looks like one I can shoot in with equipment I already own. I'm unlikely to buy a gun specifically for this division, but it looks like I already own three I could shoot in it.

Limited 10 looks like what I'd like best. I presume that 10 round magazines for .45 are available that comply with the length limit on single stacks. Right? It looks like the magazine measurement does not include bumpers added to protect the base of the magazine. Right? Allowable modifications include replacement barrels, but stipulate that it must be the same contour as factory standard. I presume that eliminates bull, cone and similar barrels. Right?

Limited looks OK as well. It looks like the only difference between Limited and Limited 10 is the maximum rounds that may be loaded, Right? This means I could shoot a 10 round single stack in either division if I'm willing to put up with the reload disadvantage in Limited, Right?

I notice some interesting changes from current rules, at least as I read them. Changes in the divisions are pretty obvious. It looks like the guns I might shoot in 2008 Production are also acceptable for the current Production division.

A couple of things confuse me. First, it looks like, under the current rules, my preferred guns best fit the Standard Division. Since the division does not seem to limit the number of rounds in this division, it looks like I'd be at a significant disadvantage with my single stack gun preference. I've seen comments about a Single Stack Division, but I didn't see anything in the current rule book about it. Did I miss it or am I mixing organizations?

I didn't understand what you meant about being required to go to public ranges to get involved. I don't go to public ranges anymore and I don't miss out on anything. Do you know how to locate local USPSA or IDPA clubs in your area? Both websites have local club locater tools. If you let us know where you live, we'll even do that bit of research for you and get you in touch with your local shooters.

As near as I've been able to tell, the nearest USPSA club in my area is in Miami Dade County (Florida). There may be IDPA or other types of club. I've not yet researched that possiblity. Listings on the USPSA site don't consistently include the range they use, but it's a pretty good bet that they use one of the public ones. Some of those clubs are likely to be primarily Hispanic, not necessarily the best option for someone that does not speak Spanish. I live in Broward County, where the only place I know of that includes action shooting of any kind, and I don't know what kind it is, Marcum Park, run by the county. My club does not, and is not likely to, conduct USPSA or most other action shooting sports. Neither our facility, nor our membership's preferences favor that kind of shooting. It's primarily a bullseye club. I like the facility and my fellow members, but I originally joined for a place to chrono my reloads, not because my preferences match theirs. I compete in fun bullseye tournaments, where I consistently finish near last. The good shooters have to have someone to beat. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a bad shot. I'm just not in the same class as these guys. I'm lucky they have an informal PPC I can participate in. I'm unlucky that, out of 150 rounds fired, 48 are fired from the 50 yard line. Old eyes, iron sights and long distances are not a good combination. The USPSA site does not list any clubs in Broward County.

Lee

[ihatepickles]

For instance you mentioned you wanted to stick with 1911's, so folks aren't posting a lot of Production division advice because 1911's and all single action only pistols aren't allowed in Production division.

Except as specifically mentioned, everything below is based on the proposed 2008 rule book. I come back to the current rules at the end.

I found a route to the USPSA rules and divisions. I actually came back here to ask if my understanding of production was correct, that it did not allow single action only pistols such as my 1911 variants. As I understand Production division, it's for double/single action, double action only and safe action (Glocks and the like) with a single power factor designation. No major PF. In other words, my stock Beretta 92 F, 92 FS (9mm) and Glock 23 (.40) would all be acceptable in this division.

You've got it, the Berettas and the G22 are both legal in Production in their stock form. Since the G22 is chambered in .40 it would kick a lot harder with factory ammo than a 9mm shooting factory ammo.

I presume, in stock form, trigger pull on each would comply. Trigger work, such as polishing, is OK as long as the double action pull is no less than 3 lbs. There's no limit on single action (after the first shot with the Berettas) trigger pull except, of course, that it be safe. Right?

As you said, you're basing this off of the proposed 2008 rules. I'm hoping the 3 lbs trigger restriction doesn't make it into the final draft of these rules. But to address your question, yes the 3 lbs limit only applies to the double action first shot of a DA/SA pistol. The Beretta and Glock both have triggers heavier than 3 lbs from the factory.

I don't fully understand the sight restriction. It is more specific than in other classes, stating "knotch and post only." Does that rule out light gathering fiber optic sights that are part of the front post, ramps with or without colored inserts, or what? This is a significant issue for those of us with older eyes.

Fiber optic, plain target, tritium, 3-dot, etc... sights are fine for Production division. The rear sight needs to be a square notch and the front sight needs to be a post. Any coloring or highlighting that fiber optics or whatever lines or dots you prefer are legal. The stock Beretta or Glock sights are examples of notch and post.

I'm not sure this is the division I would like best, but it looks like one I can shoot in with equipment I already own. I'm unlikely to buy a gun specifically for this division, but it looks like I already own three I could shoot in it.

Yes. Since holster and mag pouches are generally gun specific, don't spend too much if you're not sure you like that division. CR Speed Versa pouches fit several different brands of magazines with the use of shims.

Limited 10 looks like what I'd like best. I presume that 10 round magazines for .45 are available that comply with the length limit on single stacks. Right? It looks like the magazine measurement does not include bumpers added to protect the base of the magazine. Right?

10 round magazines from Wilson and Tripp fit the 140mm restriction so they're fine. Those brands are generally what everyone uses as well.

Allowable modifications include replacement barrels, but stipulate that it must be the same contour as factory standard. I presume that eliminates bull, cone and similar barrels. Right?

You're looking at the proposed 2008 rules for that info and these rules aren't finalized. To be honest I just noticed the changes to Limited and Limited 10 barrels in the new rules. I don't know what the impact of of that rule is. This is somewhat confusing, as bull barrels have always been permitted in Limited before.

Limited looks OK as well. It looks like the only difference between Limited and Limited 10 is the maximum rounds that may be loaded, Right? This means I could shoot a 10 round single stack in either division if I'm willing to put up with the reload disadvantage in Limited, Right?

You can shoot Limited division with 10 rounds in the magazine, but you'll be running against pistols with 20 rounds in their magazine. Obviously, you're better off competitively to stay in Limited 10 if you only have 10 round magazines.

I notice some interesting changes from current rules, at least as I read them. Changes in the divisions are pretty obvious. It looks like the guns I might shoot in 2008 Production are also acceptable for the current Production division.

Yes, what you own already sounds like they'd be fine for the new rules.

A couple of things confuse me. First, it looks like, under the current rules, my preferred guns best fit the Standard Division. Since the division does not seem to limit the number of rounds in this division, it looks like I'd be at a significant disadvantage with my single stack gun preference.

When you mentioned Standard division, it made me think you were looking at the IPSC gun specifications. As a new shooter, you may not be aware of the the distinction of USPSA vs IPSC. Here in the state, 99% of all matches are USPSA matches. Once you leave the USA 100% of the matches are IPSC. USPSA and IPSC have different rules and should be thought of as separate clubs with a common history.

If you use a singlestack 1911 in a division with no round restrictions (these divisions are only limited by the length of the magazines, either 140mm or 170mm depending on division) then you will be at a disadvantage. If you want to shoot a singlestack 1911 then look into Limited 10 or Singlestack.

I've seen comments about a Single Stack Division, but I didn't see anything in the current rule book about it. Did I miss it or am I mixing organizations?

Singlestack division is just starting out and currently it's considered a provisional division. If you check the rules link from earlier, the Singlestack provisional rules can be downloaded.

I didn't understand what you meant about being required to go to public ranges to get involved. I don't go to public ranges anymore and I don't miss out on anything. Do you know how to locate local USPSA or IDPA clubs in your area? Both websites have local club locater tools. If you let us know where you live, we'll even do that bit of research for you and get you in touch with your local shooters.

As near as I've been able to tell, the nearest USPSA club in my area is in Miami Dade County (Florida).

There's lots of Florida shooters here, I'll defer to their local knowledge.

Edit: moderators, I'm not sure why my quote blocks are broken, they look fine to me. If you can fix this it would make things a lot clearer.

[BSeevers]

South FL smiths. I hope I don't miss anybody. If Dave at Gun Doc is still in business and you want a lot of face to face I would recommend him. He has dropped out of competition but made great reliable guns. A little ways up the road is Derek at Millennium Custom. For out of state (not really a big deal)the mentioned Benny Hill, George Smith and Dan Bedel are very good. Never had a gun made by these guys but know they are excellent smiths and more important good fair businessmen.

For USPSA club info look for your Sectional Coordinator and send them an email and I think Ray Lambert or Shannon Smith is yours. Club finder on USPSA.org

Edited December 28, 2006 by BSeevers

[BR]

Lee-

Go to the USPSA website at http://www.uspsa.com. On the right-hand side of the page, you can enter your city or zip code and the receive information for the USPSA clubs in your area. Set up an appointment for a USPSA safety class. That will be the first step to enjoying our sport.

Here in Colorado, almost all matches are shot on non-public ranges. Good luck.

-br

[markwilliston]

Lee,

It sure is nice when the problem is "What gun do I want??"

I'm on the early front side of the shooting learning curve, bought an STI trojan in .45 and have started shooting IPSC this year.

The .45 isn't perfect for IPSC, but I have always wanted one, and this one is a keeper. I'm sure I will buy other guns, I just wanted to start with a .45 and everyone should have a good one

Shooting like alot of other sports has it's "levels" they look at production as the beginer level because it costs less, then you move up to Standard, and when you get really really good and wanna go all out, OPEN is the top.

To me that is backwards. Production is about the toughest category to shoot, double action first shot, no mods etc...

Standard is great, you can do a lot with the gun, I'm having a great time with it.

Open is where I wish I could have started. Compensated barrel and optical sights, it doesn't get any better. Particularily for the older crowd (that's not me) that are having a little harder time seeing that front sight, optical is pretty nice. The couple matches I have been to have had a few little old ladies working through the stages with their open guns having a great time.

If you haven't tried an open gun, see if you can borrow one. Just a consideration, cause it really is fun. I'm gonna get one at some point :-)

Good luck with the search

[Lee Bell]

Thanks to everyone that has replied. I know a lot more now than I did when all of this started. Most of it, as it turns out, is about the rules, etc. I'm that much closer to looking up a time and place to play and joining in the excitement.

As for the recommendation that I check the USPSA website for clubs in my area, I did that. I found nothing in my country. The fact is, I'm reasonably sure at least one local range runs some kind of action shooting events. I just have to find them.

As for the gun, I seem to have several options. Perhaps the most important single fact I now have is that .40 caliber is probably what I want. The fact that it fits the major PF rules, it allows for higher capacity magazines and once fired cases are readily available at little or no cost, is a hard combination to beat. Exactly what .40, or more likely, what components are in what .40, is still very much up in the air. As it happens, I seem to have time to decide.

As already mentioned, I have a couple of 9mm Berettas that are Production Division legal now. I may or may not decide to start with them. I also have two .40 pistols, a Glock that will work in several divisions and a Delta Elite 10mm that will work for Single Stack, Limited 10 and, although somewhat less competitive, in Limited. I don't enjoy shooting the Glock, but it will work. I have only 10 round magazines for it, but larger ones are available. I'm more likely to use my Delta Elite 10mm until I decide on exactly what I want over the longer term. Not only is it the single stack design I like most, it's had a trigger job, is still above the 3 lb limit, and was tight and accurate straight from the factory, unlike the Gold Cup I purchased a couple of months ago. It probably needs different sights, but it too, will work until I get, or turn it into something better. I'll almost certainly want to reduce the loads I shoot in it a bit, though. I'm substantial over the minimum PF required for major and I'm not good enough to give recoil advantage to people that have been competing for a while. Since I reload both .40 and 10mm, that's not a significant issue.

What is a significant issue, at least for the 10mm, is the cost of brass. You just dont' pick 10mm up everywhere you go. I'm having to buy new to replace lost, and that's both expensive and annoying. I'll have to work on that a bit.

Does anyone know if I can, without a lot of hassel, get a .40 caliber barrel for my Delta Elite that will let me to switch calibers at will? I would assume that, since the bullets are the same diameter, it would require little more than a different chamber, perhaps different magazines and a bushing as well, and some money to fit the new barrel to the existing frame and slide. I would only consider this if I was able to retain the ability to convert back to 10mm. If I can't, then two guns is better for me than one.

At any rate, thanks to everyone that has provided advice. I'm still thinking and still looking at options for the new gun. I've received a few recommendations for top quality gunsmiths, including a couple recommended by more than one person. With all respect to the smiths and those that recommended them, and no offense intended to anyone, I'm going to proceed slowly on that aspect of my search. I've suffered from following recommendations I thought were good before and, having been burned twice, I'm going to move more slowly this time. Rest assured, I saw the recommendations and will include them in my continued search for the best gun, and gunsmith, for me.

*

Lee