Chemical Energy Of Primer Vs Powder

[Gumby]

Anyone know what the relative amount of chemical energy stored in a primer is compared to powder of an average round, like 9mm?

Also, do all center-fire rounds use the same size primers (9mm and .45 for example)?

And how much damage can a primer blast do?

[Liota]

Gumby,

If you want actual hard numbers regarding chemical energy, someone else will have to answer. I'm military, but they don't let me play with the neat stuff.

As to size of primers, 9mm & .40 generally use small primers, either rifle or pistol. .45 uses large primers.

As for the damage a primer can do when it goes bang inappropriately? Anecdotal evidence, and some first-hand on here, says that if the primer is in the press's primer tube, the whole tube will go up. One friend of mine embedded his primer tube in the ceiling of his house. In a chamber, when there is no flash hole, it ruins the case and may get parts of the brass in tight quarters.

You might want to do a search on the forum for other information.

v/r,

Liota

[R/T Performance]

There is large and small pistol plus magnum in both varitys.

Then Rifle that tend to have a "harder shell"

[Lee Bell]

Anyone know what the relative amount of chemical energy stored in a primer is compared to powder of an average round, like 9mm?

A primer only will get the bullet out of the case and chamber, but not out of the barrel. A squib load, which is what we call a round with a primer but no powder, is a danger to shooters that fail to notice it. Firing a second round while there's a bullet in the barrel often means buying a new gun and sometimes means a trip to the hospital . . . if you're lucky. A combined primer and powder will get the bullet out fast enough to do serious damage.

Also, do all center-fire rounds use the same size primers (9mm and .45 for example)?

No. Generally speaking, there are four different center fire pistol primers commonly used in the United States. Small Pistol, Small Pistol Magnum, Large Pistol and Large Pistol Magnum. 9mm rounds use small pistol primers. Most, but apparently not all, .45s use large pistol primers. Magnum primers are generally used for magnum loads.

While I'm on the subject, the same assortment applies to rifle primers. Some, who have taken the time to learn how to do so safely, use rifle primers in pistols cartridges.

And how much damage can a primer blast do?

All guns are to be treated a loaded all the time. Whether empty, loaded with a primer only, or loaded with a primer and powder, assume the gun is deadly and don't point it at anything you don't want to kill or damage.

Having said that, the answer to your question is "it depends." There are some very light .22 rounds that are designed to shoot with no powder. They're used where the noise and the range of a more conventional round would be a problem. Some use them to practice shooting in urban environments and for killing pests such as mice, rats, etc. They are not normally considered deadly to humans, but they certainly could do considerable damage. There are rubber bullets made for a vareity of larger calibers that can be used with primers only for target practice, again, in areas where the sound and range of a normal bullet would cause a problem. They are also not normally considered deadly to humans, but if they are fast enough to work on targets, are probably fast enough to hurt and, perhaps seriously hurt, someone hit by one, particularly if they are hit in a soft tissue, their eyes, for example.

Another issue, not normally mentioned, is that a single primer is not likely to cause much damage. A group of primers, like those housed in most loading presses, going off at the same time, can be a pretty significant thing. My Dillon reloader has a heavy duty outer sleeve over the inner primer sleeve for just this reason.

Lee

[Guy Neill]

I don't remember the individual numbers, but on average, as I recall, a primer delivers about 10 ft-lbs upon detonation. I don;t know the powder value.

Guy

[shred]

And how much damage can a primer blast do?

All guns are to be treated a loaded all the time. Whether empty, loaded with a primer only, or loaded with a primer and powder, assume the gun is deadly and don't point it at anything you don't want to kill or damage.

...

Another issue, not normally mentioned, is that a single primer is not likely to cause much damage.

I would disagree with this. One primer going off somewhere protected like in a reloader probably won't kill you or blind you (especially if you're wearing safety glasses). One primer going off somewhere unprotected could be a bigger problem.

Long ago I deprimed a primed case by setting it base-down in a pot on the stove and turning on the heat (everybody should try this, it's educational. Make sure you're alone in the house and use a junker pot ). The resulting bang and large dent in the bottom of the pot made me a lot more cautious around primers. It was a pretty crappy pot, but it would take me a hard swing with a ball-peen hammer to create a similar dent. I know what a full swing with a hammer can do to a finger..

[Guy Neill]

I definitely agree with Shred. Treat even a single primer with considerable respect. The Army, some time back, determined the minimum wounding energy of 40 ft-lbs to reliably wound/kill (at least wound, I don't remember if it was listed as killing), so ¼ of that is still something to take seriously.

I have seen the xrays of primers embedded about ½" - 3/4" in an arm muscle, and, in the aftermath of a garage fire some years back, found primer cups from shotshell primers that had traveled some four feet, penetrating multiple layers of cardboard at the end. In the case of shotshell primers, the steel battery cup acts as a chamber and the detonating primer drives the primer cup out with considerable force. Admittedly, shotshell primers are quite a bit more powerful than metallic cartridge primers, but don't underestimate the metallic primers.

Guy

[L9X25]

A primer in a 10mm casing can propel a plastic valve stem cap (from a car tire) 800 fps. This is enough to penetrate and exit a large couch pillow. After the pillow incident I shot one over the chrono to see how fast it was actually going.

[kevin c]

A primer in a 10mm casing can propel a plastic valve stem cap (from a car tire) 800 fps. This is enough to penetrate and exit a large couch pillow. After the pillow incident I shot one over the chrono to see how fast it was actually going.

The things we do in our spare time...

[L9X25]

The things we do in our spare time...

There is a complete thread about the stupid things that folks have done with primer only loads. Take a .357 revolver and a cooking pan with wax melted about 1/2" thick and then allowed to harden. Press the primed cases into the wax and they make great wadcutters for practice in the back yard. However, it is NOT recommended that you shoot your wife's silouette through the shower curtain ... (while she is showering) the wax WILL penetrate the shower curtain cleanly and leave a welt about the size of a 50 cent piece on her rear end ... and she WILL come out of the shower screaming with fists swinging. Thank goodness this little prank was not mine ... but I knew the guy. You only make that mistake once!!

[goldfieldshooter]

Drill out the flash hole to 0.1" and the primer will not back out on you. Great for practice in the back yard and it puts a very neat hole through a D1 @ 10yds. Hardly any noise to annoy the neighbours.

Goldfieldshooter

[Lee Bell]

There is a complete thread about the stupid things that folks have done with primer only loads. Take a .357 revolver and a cooking pan with wax melted about 1/2" thick and then allowed to harden. Press the primed cases into the wax and they make great wadcutters for practice in the back yard. However, it is NOT recommended that you shoot your wife's silouette through the shower curtain ... (while she is showering) the wax WILL penetrate the shower curtain cleanly and leave a welt about the size of a 50 cent piece on her rear end ... and she WILL come out of the shower screaming with fists swinging. Thank goodness this little prank was not mine ... but I knew the guy. You only make that mistake once!!

Next time you see hime tell him something for me. He's an idiot.

Every gun should be treated as though it is loaded and never pointed at anything or anyone you don't intend to shoot. That goes double for one you know is going to fire something. Someone should take his guns away and keep them until he grows up.

Lee

[Justsomeguy]

I definitely agree with Shred. Treat even a single primer with considerable respect. The Army, some time back, determined the minimum wounding energy of 40 ft-lbs to reliably wound/kill (at least wound, I don't remember if it was listed as killing), so ¼ of that is still something to take seriously.

I have seen the xrays of primers embedded about ½" - 3/4" in an arm muscle, and, in the aftermath of a garage fire some years back, found primer cups from shotshell primers that had traveled some four feet, penetrating multiple layers of cardboard at the end. In the case of shotshell primers, the steel battery cup acts as a chamber and the detonating primer drives the primer cup out with considerable force. Admittedly, shotshell primers are quite a bit more powerful than metallic cartridge primers, but don't underestimate the metallic primers.

Guy

I have read somewhere of similar wounds caused by people trying to "de-prime" live primers and winding up with them embedded in their thigh or "other places". It seems the primer indent in the case makes for enough "barrel" to launch one at respectable velocities. Perhaps steel cupped "jock straps" should be added to other safety precautions like safety glasses when handling them... especially if you think to de-prime live primers from cases.