Suggestions For Swat Rifle Also Used For 3 Gunning

[carolina flatfoot]

We are starting up a regional swat team in our area and we are going to have to supply our rifles for now. I am looking for a rifle that can be used for those purposes as well as 3 gunning. A Col. friend of mine suggested Kyle Lambs, Viking Tactics jp specialized rifle. It is in my price range, just wanted to get your thoughts. I would like to get a good rifle to train ALOT with, in hopes of keeping for a while. Thanks for your input.

http://www.vikingtactics.com/ForSale/JP/Ri...ACSpecRifle.htm

[Merlin Orr]

Welcome to the Forums, Flatfoot. Lots of LE and such here that can give you some good input.

[EricW]

There's several LEO's here that will be able to give you some solid advice. I think you'll have to make a compromise on bbl length, but the right folks will be able to clue you in on what's best for dual duty. You may be a good candidate for an 18" rifle with an adjustable stock.

Edited December 7, 2006 by EricW

[kellyn]

What you need is a JP VTAC or a POF-USA AR with a variable scope which cranks down to a true 1X (Leupold CQB etc.) or a Holosight with a Aimpoint 3X magnifier in a Samson mount.

[SinistralRifleman]

Well here's one option:

http://www.cavalryarms.com/CAPCP.html

Also available with EOTech, and soon the Leupold Prismatic.

Standard handguards can be replaced with Samson free float rail system.

we do offer individual officer and department discounts.

Whatever rifle you get, I would reccomend getting a 5.56mm NATO chambered chrome lined barrel for reliability and longevity. Avoid "match grade" modifications like lightened bolt carriers, match triggers, anything that compromises reliability should be avoided.

If you're going to have only one rifle optimize it for your duty use, and use 3 gun as a venue to practice your gun handling and marksmanship with that rifle.

Edited December 7, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[George]

Both the JP VTAC Carbine and the Cav Arms Practical Carbine are designed for what you want to do. Both are good choices. Talk to both suppliers directly and I think you will probably find it a tough call to go anywhere else and an even tougher call choosing between them.

BTW, they both support 3gun competition heavily.

[Gregory_k]

Colt 6920.

[Jon Merricks]

First I'd say don't do it. Because if they will not front the bucks to supply good equipment they will more than likely not give the team the time and the resources to train properly. Not only liability is at stake but lives as well.

Rant Over.

That being said, I'd say nothing would be wrong with a standard M-4 type and irons and spend the rest on a class with Kyle. I have never seen a situation (for me and my area) that I would benefit for anything longer than a 16”er. But all the other suggestions are good too.

[SGDM]

Highly recommend the VTAC JP.

[carolina flatfoot]

yes i have heard alot about viking tactics JP carbine, however I have also heard alot about POF's gas piston carbine. Two different animals. Main thing for me is reliability and accuracy. I knew you guys would steer me straight. Thank you

[sniperdog]

I was on a entry team for 7 years and would suggest a basic AR with Aimpoint or EoTech. The main thing is to keep it simple, you dont want the thing to break while making an entry. Also, it will get banged around while on duty as well as on call-outs. I used a department supplied Bushmaster with an Aimpoint , mounted to the carry handle with the gooseneck mount. This allowed me to use the irons if the dot went dead, I would also recommend putting the Surefire light system on the rifle. Most of your "work" with the rifle will be in low light, be sure to get the model with the pressure swtch for momentary light use.

The rifle worked well for me in 3-Gun as well, however, most of the club matches I went to did not have any long range targets. I have retired and now use a custom AR for 3-Gun, which I would NEVER think of using for duty (liablity issues with using "custom" equipment for duty use)

Hope this helps, trainn with the rifle and then train a lot more.

[Nick Weidhaas]

Flatfoot,

I'm LE, FA Trainer, former SRT member, and a 3gun shooter. My dept. issues us Colt 16" carbines. They work well for police work, but would not be my first choice for 3gun (it wouldn't be my 2nd or 3rd choice either . However, it can be done. It is a matter of training and knowing your rifle. In LE work we generally don't engage further than 100 yards, normally much closer. In 3gun you could be shooting out to 400 yards, depending on the match.

I agree with the JP recommendation. They are just the best, IMHO. I run a JP 20" rifle in 3gun that is just awesome. I just looked at the JP Vtac at the Ft. Benning 3gun match and they are sweet. The questions is which set-up should you got with as there are pros and cons of each.

You need to decide on barrel length and to go with a chrome lined or match bbl. As you know, JP now offers a chrome lined 16" bbl. with mid-length gas system. The pro is that the chrome lined barrel will last much longer than a match bbl. Bbl. length will also work well for room entry. Con is that you generally don't get the accuracy from a chrome lined bbl. that you get from a match bbl (not a big deal if you are shooting 100 yards or less). A rifle vs. carbine or mid length gas system also makes for a softer gun. Lastly, you get some velocity loss with a 16" bbl. which means that you will have more drop at longer distance targets. Not an issue if you know where to hold.

Personally, I'd give up the barrel life and go with a match bbl. That said, my choice would be to compromise and run a JP Vtac with a 18" match bbl. Second choice would be JP Vtac with a 16" match bbl.

As far as an optic goes, an EoTech with BUIS is hard to beat for CQB distance and the 1moa dot in the EoTech reticle helps with precision shots at longer distance. Con is that you don't have any magnification. My preference is for a variable optic with a true 1X. I suggest the Meopta Meostar RD 1-4X http://www.meopta.com/index.php?id=130〈=en in a quick detach larue mount http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=30 . Optic has an illuminated day time 2moa dot. 50 yard zero will allow you to hold dead on out to 200. Hashmark under dot is poa/poi at 300 yards. Meopta is like shooting an Aimpoint M2 with the ability to go to 4X.

Other option would be the Leupold C/QT 1-3X. http://www.leupold.com/products/tactical_p..._Mark_4_CQT.htm

You can run BUIS on top of your rifle in the conventional places (would have to remove varialbe optic to use them) or you can run a JP close range iron sight on the ff tube. Light on the oposite side or under forearm and you are good to go.

Feel free to PM or Email me with questions.

Stay safe,

Nick-

[ShooterSteve]

It was interesting to see someone recommend a Colt. I know everyone has an opinion, and they are certainly entitled to it but the Colt that I own is junk. I bought a H-Bar Comp Match Target, for 3 gunning and put a Leupold CQT on it. I was figuring to buy what I felt was a good combo right out of the box. The best I can get out of this gun is 4"-5" at 100 yds and that is NOT acceptable! Try shooting 6"plates at 200yds with the clock running on you and your gun won't even group tight enough to hit the friggin targets!

There will always be someone who shouts Colt 6920! I hope you like yours, and you can buy mine!

I know people are saying it's probably the shooter, and that is ok, but I was a GMG2 (EOD) for Uncle Sam, a SAMI, expert pistol, expert rifle, and twice have been 1 shot away from a perfect score at indoor Glock matches. My bolt gun will go 1.25" at 300yds, so I don't feel that it is me. I am not perfect, but 4" at 100yds makes me want to HURL! Colt...YUCK

[kellyn]

Whatever rifle you get, I would reccomend getting a 5.56mm NATO chambered chrome lined barrel for reliability and longevity. Avoid "match grade" modifications like lightened bolt carriers, match triggers, anything that compromises reliability should be avoided.

If you're going to have only one rifle optimize it for your duty use, and use 3 gun as a venue to practice your gun handling and marksmanship with that rifle.

Excellent advice.

[00bullitt]

If it is to be considered at all for a work gun......definitely consider reliability. Your life could be at stake. Go with a 16" chrome lined midlength gas system. I really like the Leupold CQ/T for a tactical(work) and 3 gun scope. consider a good adjustable stock like the LMT SOPMOD or the new Magpul in case body armor is going to be used for SWAT. Stick with the standard mil spec BCG. The PRI handguards are nice for tactical and 3 gun use. It is carbon fiber for excellent heat dissipation and has user configurable rails for weapon lights and such. The JP trigger is also well suited for duty/competiton use. It can be set at an unbelivable crisp 4 pounds that feels like 2.5 and it is utterly reliable.

Definitely consider your life before competition. Look at Sabre Defense. They have an excellent rifle with a 16" barrel and midlength gas system with a chrome lined 1/7 twist barrel. They have also been a huge sponsor of the 3 gun community.

[uscbigdawg]

Kind of the same line as the others. Reliability is HUGE on this. With that, because of your engagement distances, barrel length/velocity loss and barrel life are tiny issues.

That said, I'd go with a 14.5-16" w/ mid-length gas system. Whoever's free float tube/rail system for all the necessary accessories and a JP trigger. After that, for the distances that you're looking at either an Aimpoint or EOTech. We're training up with our deployment rifles now and using the M68 (Aimpoint) is too simple. It's a big departure from my 3-Gun setup, but it frankly is like shooting my open pistol.

Reliability is huge though. It's not just your life, it's those on your team too that is paramount. Sabre Defence, DPMS and JP would be my first calls.

Rich

[SGDM]

Don't forget Rock River, pretty solid.

They are all reliable, it is the operator that makes them fail.

[carolina flatfoot]

Thanks for all the great replies. I will look more into the Viking Tactics JP Specialized. Any further suggestions would be appreciated as well.

[Paule]

... I bought a H-Bar Comp Match Target, for 3 gunning and put a Leupold CQT on it. I was figuring to buy what I felt was a good combo right out of the box. The best I can get out of this gun is 4"-5" at 100 yds and that is NOT acceptable! ...

thread drift on -

Steve, your results are atypical. With good ammo you should easily have moa capability. Please don't settle for what you have. Find out what the issue(s) is and start enjoying your Colt. Feel free to email me directly if I can offer suggestions on trouble shooting this.

- thread drift off

[rkgsmith]

I use a 11.5 Colt with Eotech and surefire light system for work and 20 " Olympic Arms ultra match with a 1-4 optic for matches. My suggestion is don't use one gun for both. We ran into this same type of arrangement many years ago with auto pistols in my dept. We wanted them, the bean counters said "no". When we said we would by them, they said "ok go right ahead." I would never take my duty gun on the road for matches, then bet my life or somebody elses on it. Liability is way to high. Again Rant over.

I perfer the 1-4 optic for competition, and am just as fast with it as with a dot. However, for work it is very difficult to use the scope in the dark, with flashlights, with NVG's and with a gas mask inside the confines of some dirt bag's darkened basement. The Eotech wins in that catagory hands down.

[Brian Payne]

Just a note from personal experiance.

If you are involved in deadly force situation, your gun will be gone for quite some time. At least where I work, the state BCA takes it as evidence. Just something to keep in mind.

Payne

[Chuck Anderson]

I would take a long look at Rock River Arms. An Entry Tactical will give you just about everything you need for a work rifle out of the box, and a heck of a lot cheaper than most of these selections. Figure out what you want optic wise. I use a CQ/T on my work rifle and competition rifles. The 3x comes in handy when doing IP work or moving up to the scene for intel. The 1x is what I keep it set at when it's in the rack. Quick to deploy, if the batteries die no biggie. I also mount my SureFire M962 on the side of the CQ/T which bring the balance of the rifle back over the grip. If you want an EOTech or Aimpoint RRA make mounts with fixed iron sights that allow you to see them through the scope. You get your BUIS included with the gun.

The JP is a great rifle. I've got two now and plan to add a third. You will not go wrong with one. But there are some other things I'd rather buy before a rifle that expensive.

As far as Colt and Bushmaster. I'd avoid them. We've had really scattered results with both. The Colt's have had some accuracy problems. Primarily due to the 30 lb gravel filled trigger. The Bushmasters had several carrier keys loosen up and 3-4 that went full auto, when they weren't supposed to.