Downloaded .45 Acp In Ssp/esp?

[Merlin Orr]

You can't win, Joe.

First the Tactical Gurus will tell you to compete with what you carry.

Then if you hint that there is any training aspect to IDPA (or IPSC) they will be quick to tell you "it's just a game."

Life is just a game... I want to win it too.

[leam]

You can't win, Joe.

First the Tactical Gurus will tell you to compete with what you carry.

Then if you hint that there is any training aspect to IDPA (or IPSC) they will be quick to tell you "it's just a game."

I like Joe's "experimenter" self-label. For me IDPA is a game that I enjoy and it encourages me to get more fit. One of the few reasons I didn't look hard for an IPSC group locally is that their stuff looked more active than my body was ready for! Maybe as I practice IDPA ( can you use those two words in the same sentence? ) and get more fit I'll be ready for IPSC.

For the most part I wasn't looking for labels on the downloaded .45 question, just wondering if there were technical issues I overlooked. Being new to both shooting and reloading it seems like a good idea to my uneducated mind. If the match winner did it then that'd be neat, and I'd politely go back to my CDP shooting because that's the game I train for. While I like to hear other opinions we should probably refrain from degenerating into the "BS" cycle this time. Hopefully.

So far the answer seems to be that it's both legal and technically possible. Whether someone does it is a matter of choice.

ciao!

leam

[Merlin Orr]

ESP times (as the IDPA GAME is scored) are usually faster for the ESP hotrocks as compared to the CDP guys. I can see no advantage to shooting a .45 over a 9mm - as most ESP shooters use. So... I don't see how someone could tag you with the "gamer" label for shooting a gun generally considered to be more difficult to control....??

[Chills1994]

Thinking critically about why ESP times are better than CDP times, usually, could be attributed to a few factors:

1. Shooting a less recoil producing caliber in 9 or 40 leads to quicker "double taps" and transitions.

2. Most ESP guns hold 2 more rounds than CDP guns, at least at the start of the stage. Since IDPA caps CoF to 18 rounds max (or is it min? LOL), there are going to be fewer mag reloads for the SSP and ESP shooters. Hence, less time "on stage" versus the CDP guys, especially if that CoF requires more than 9 shots.

3. Nothing could be quicker than loading a tapered down doublestack mag into a very large mag welled gun. Disadvantage goes to the single stack 1911 .45 ACP shooters in CDP. Again, more time "on stage" for the CDP'ers.

4. ESP guns can weigh in at 43 oz, and CDP is 41 oz. I don't know if the 2 oz makes a difference. I guess for some, though, it does.

Leam, I noticed you only have 11 posts here so far. Let me say "welcome to the forums". Your post up above hit the nail on the head quite well. Seems every discussion in this IDPA subforum devolves into some hate/rant type thread. Unfortunate.

Another way of looking at it is you are quite literally getting more bang for your buck by feeding your typical CDP gun bunnyfart loads and entering it in ESP. I like the cheapskate-ness aspect of that. LOL!

Why shell out close to a thousand bucks (or more) for a dedicated gamer ESP gun in 9 or 40?

Maybe when your fitness level gets to where you're more comfortable w/ USPSA style of shooting, Leam, a full tilt Limited/ESP gun will start calling your name.

+1 on the extended 10 round mags, and the IDPA box rule. Gun with empty mag inserted must fit inside the IDPA box.

[Scooter]

I shoot a downloaded 40 in ESP. 180gr @ 130 pf. With a light spring, it's not sluggish. Though Slide Glide 3 on a cold day can make the gun seem to cycle slow.

[FTDR]

FTDR, that's the same split time I can get with a Kimber 1911 shooting a 200 gr at 650 fps. Either you are old and slow or I am fast enough.

Was not comparing a Glock to a 1911, just pointing out that one cannot pull the trigger faster than the slide will cycle whether shooting a Glock or 1911. The issue is some will not like the feel of the recoil cycle from one load to another.

Shall we leave it at that or argue more?

as i said it is not 100% about cycle time, i am nether old, slow, or a sharpshooter

[Joe D]

Guys we all know that a 10 round .45 mag will not fit into the box. A 9rd .45 mag will. So will a 10 rd .40 mag.

FTDR, I hope to make it to the sharpshooter level some day. Are you a marksman like me? I am very inexperienced at this IPDA game. Did I spell that right?

Played around with my STI 2011 today at lunch. Finally got the slide to drop 100% of the time, like a Glock, without having to touch the release.

I played around with the .45ACP in SSP and ESP just to ruffle some of the purists feathers.

Edited November 17, 2006 by Joe D

[FTDR]

naaaa i'm a novice, i just like spouting off about things i do not know

[leam]

naaaa i'm a novice, i just like spouting off about things i do not know

That's MY job! New shooter and new forum member--I know it all, right?

ciao!

leam the know it all

[MichiganShootist]

One of the "Primo" gamers in my neck of the woods shoots his Glock 21 in CDP, SSP, and ESP.

He uses down loaded 200 grain FMJs and a light spring kit that he drops in when shooting minor. Since it's a double stack he gets the full 10+ 1 in SSP & ESP..... and loads 8 + 1 in CDP with a major load.... or so he says

He has two primary reasons.

1.He says that he likes the bigger hole the .45 leaves - - -believing it picks him up a number of favorable calls in every match. Converting 4 down threes into 4 down ones.....picks up 4 seconds which is often the margin between first and second in a match.

2. He shoots one gun in 3 IDPA classes and also in IPSC... so he believes the consistantcy is valuable too.

[Joe D]

I am thinking a Caspian widebody in .45ACP might just be the untimate ESP gamer gun. Should come in right at the max weight. If a 200 gr SWC at 650 fps does not give one enough snap just add a little more powder. The slide should certainly be as fast as a 9mm 1911's speed.

The large holes will turn several of those -1 and -3 shots into a higher score each match.

Hmmm, Audrey I think I know what I want for Christmas

[Merlin Orr]

I am thinking a Caspian widebody in .45ACP might just be the untimate ESP gamer gun. Should come in right at the max weight. If a 200 gr SWC at 650 fps does not give one enough snap just add a little more powder. The slide should certainly be as fast as a 9mm 1911's speed.

The large holes will turn several of those -1 and -3 shots into a higher score each match.

Hmmm, Audrey I think I know what I want for Christmas

I weighed a Caspian trying to do this very thing. Mine was to heavy. It was an old gun so perhaps it was built differently..?

[Joe D]

Do you recall how heavy the gun was? There are several ways to take out weight. Plug instead of guide rod, plactic MS housing etc. Some where I read a post that a Caspian would make weight.

[Duane Thomas]

Life is just a game... I want to win it too.

Life is a disease. Sexually transmitted and inevitably fatal.

Seems every discussion in this IDPA subforum devolves into some hate/rant type thread. Unfortunate.

Does it? Strange, these past weeks I've been very impressed with just how civil and constructive the posts in this forum have been. Like, a bunch of guys getting together to help each other. Wotta concept.

[Joe D]

Give us time.

[Lee Bell]

Besides cost of .45 components and trajectory, what issues would there be with a .45 ACP 230gr round nose in SSP/ESP? That means a PF of 125 and a FPS of about 544. It seems like the felt recoil would be light if you changed the springs. For the record, this is *not* my plan. At the moment it's an academic discussion between a fellow IDPA'r and I.

If it's legal in the class, why not. After all, most of the sports we're talking about here were started by .45 shooters. Returning to that history and making it work, in my opinion, is not gaming things nearly as much as the guns, holsters, etc. that many are shooting in this sport was when they were first introduced.

I shoot fun combat matches (NRA) at my local rifle and pistol club. Equate fun with "not intesely serious about the rules." Other than safety rules, enforcement is more than a little lax. This is primarily a bullseye club and the combat matches are non sanctioned events designed to keep things interesting. The majority of the members shoot some kind of reduced load on a regular basis and in the combat competition. That's what their guns are set up for and many would not compete if they had to set up differently not to mention the fact that shooting full power rounds would affect their bullseye skills just as much as using a low powered round may affect your action shooting skills.

I'm neither a serious bullseye shooter nor a serious action shooter. I'm closer to, and better at, action shooting than bullseye, but I do both . . . and I have guns set up for both. I shoot bullseye with a Browning .22 and with an accurized, red dot equipped 1911 .45. I shoot 185 grain 650 fps .45s for bullseye. A full power round would break something expensive in that gun. For combat, I'm currently using a Colt Delta Elite with 185 grain Zero JHPs at 1041 fps. That's light for a 10mm, but easily a major PF. I figure that a course that is supposed to be defensive in nature, should be shot with a round that is suitable for defense, but that's just me. If my Gold Cup .45 ever comes back from Colt, I'll shoot that instead of the 10mm. I can pick up .45 brass for free. So far, I've had to pay for 10mm brass and, in my experience, the brass stealing gremlin lives at combat matches. Interestingly, everybody in the club who hasn't tried 10mm, is quite certain that 10mm is unsuitable for competition. They're sure 10mm recoils too much. Their mistake is my advantage. OK, here goes.

1. You would probably like a lighter bullet at a higher velocity. The most popular combination at my club is a 200 grain hard cast lead semi wad cutter at around 650 feet per second. It has a mild recoil and is accurate out to about 50 yards, the longest distance included in the competition. At 650 fps, leading has not been a problem for anyone.

2. A slower round is going to cycle differently. You will feel the difference, and you almost certainly will have to adjust to the different rhythm. Once adapted, you may end up as fast or faster than with more powerful loads, but it's pretty certain that you're going to have to adjust. Switching back and forth is not easy. As a knowledgeable friend once tole me, if you try to shoot both ways, you'll be mediocre both ways. I use optics to trigger the habits I use with slower, lighter rounds, but even then, he's right. I'm mediocre both ways.

3. If you choose a lower power factor load, you need to match it with the right recoil spring. Chances are, you'll have to try several before you find just the right combination. Finding that combination is going to be complicated by the fact that you're also going to have to find the right bullet and charge combination for you gun. I suggest starting with a recoil spring (with a buffer) of around 10 - 12 lbs with a 185 - 200 grain bullet at around 650 fps.

Lee

i tried it once, waaaay to slow, your slide will not be able to keep up, and will throw your timing way off

Did you change your recoil spring? If not, you're lucky your pistol cycled at all.

Lee

[Lee Bell]

FTDR, I have a couple of bucks that says you can't do .06 splits. Shall I get the timer out and take your money?

I'm reasonably sure you can't do them on purpose, but I also did something in that range by accident. I had the travel cut a bit too fine on a really smooth, moderately light trigger. The gun double tapped, apparently all by itself. Backing off the overtravel adjustment just a bit seems to have addressed the problem. Didn't do much good for my score. The first round went where it belonged. The second one, each time, went into the head.

Never had any bullets bounce off steel, but a few have failed to go through two layers of cardboard.

It never happened to me with an autoloader, thank goodness, I two out of 12 of the slower rounds I tried in my .357 failed to get out of the barrel. That'll teach me to use a powder and charge intended for cast lead with JHPs.

The slide on a .45 1911 moves plenty fast with 200 gr bullets at 650 fps. The only real downside is having to use a 10# spring. The light spring will magnify any feeding issues.

I can feel the difference in cycle rate, but it's not as much as some assume. A 10 lb spring is the standard. I think I might try an 11 or 12 lbs spring specifically to address the feeding issue you correctly identify.

Lee

ESP times (as the IDPA GAME is scored) are usually faster for the ESP hotrocks as compared to the CDP guys. I can see no advantage to shooting a .45 over a 9mm - as most ESP shooters use. So... I don't see how someone could tag you with the "gamer" label for shooting a gun generally considered to be more difficult to control....??

I just love the words "generally considered" in this context. Not making fun of you at all, but you can't imagine how many times those words give those who try it anyway, the advantage.

Lee

[Mike P]

It seems to me that if a MD wanted to they could refuse to recognize an ESP .45 at 125 pf using the "full charge service ammunition" requirement in the purposes and principles section of the rulebook. I've never heard of a full charge .45 moving 625fps. Do you reckon such a thing exists?

The whole project seems to me a lot of work for not much gained.

Mike

[Joe D]

No they cannot. All the ESP rule stipulates is the round must be 9mm or larger.

Read the rules.

[Mike P]

No they cannot. All the ESP rule stipulates is the round must be 9mm or larger.

Read the rules.

I won't argue with you Joe, but I believe that they could. I am basing it on the statement that IDPA as a sport is quite simply the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated..yada yada yada.. etc. The 1911 .45 basically has its own division, with a higher (not high enough) power factor requirement but then you know that too.

Mike

[Jim Watson]

There are differences between Rules and Pious Platitudes, uh Principles and Purpose. The one is enforceable, the others not.

Maybe there should be more matches like the BUG event at the Nationals, guns and ammo issued on the firing line.

[Mike P]

There are differences between Rules and Pious Platitudes, uh Principles and Purpose. The one is enforceable, the others not.

Maybe there should be more matches like the BUG event at the Nationals, guns and ammo issued on the firing line.

Pious Platitudes?? Is that some sort of Latin/Greek phrase to describe purposes and principles?? If it is, then I think that they are actually enforceable, depending upon how and by whom they are interpreted. Maybe I'm wrong but I think that the argument could be made that a bullet moving slower than a fastball could be considered for "competition only" equipment and be denied for that reason. They are other possibilities too, but that one is valid.

I'm all for using full size 1911's as back up guns. Free ammo to boot?? What a deal.

Mike

[Joe D]

Mike, if they tried to enforce that statement then there would be no IDPA. Less than 20% of the shooters I know use "full power" loads. That 20% is made up of those that use 9mm Blazer or white box. I know of one CDP shooter that uses factory ammo.

It is not a rule, but a "mission statement".

The mission statement contradicts the Power Factor rule. Most factory 230 gr ball ammo has a PF of over 190. Typical 115 gr 9mm ammo runs a 138-145 PF.

SSP and ESP would be a 9mm only Division. Why would anyone shoot a .40 in these Divisions?

Not picking on you, but you are not living in the real world of IDPA.

I have advocated having a Major and Minor PF scoring system in each Division for years. Minor would be scored +.50 sec. and +1.50 sec. Major would be +.25 and +.75 sec. I would even split CDP into two PF. Minor would be 165 and Major would be 190 for those that want to shoot a manly load. That would make things a little interesting in CDP. A 230 at 718 fps or a 230 at 826 fps might be fun.

[Mike P]

Mike, if they tried to enforce that statement then there would be no IDPA. Less than 20% of the shooters I know use "full power" loads. That 20% is made up of those that use 9mm Blazer or white box. I know of one CDP shooter that uses factory ammo.

It is not a rule, but a "mission statement".

The mission statement contradicts the Power Factor rule. Most factory 230 gr ball ammo has a PF of over 190. Typical 115 gr 9mm ammo runs a 138-145 PF.

SSP and ESP would be a 9mm only Division. Why would anyone shoot a .40 in these Divisions?

Not picking on you, but you are not living in the real world of IDPA.

I have advocated having a Major and Minor PF scoring system in each Division for years. Minor would be scored +.50 sec. and +1.50 sec. Major would be +.25 and +.75 sec. I would even split CDP into two PF. Minor would be 165 and Major would be 190 for those that want to shoot a manly load. That would make things a little interesting in CDP. A 230 at 718 fps or a 230 at 826 fps might be fun.

You are probably right, I doubt if anyone REALLY cares anyway. Oh well, at least I learned a new term form this thread. Pious Platitudes, it sounds like a good name for a preacher regardless of the meaning.

Mike

[Merlin Orr]

As with so many of our threads that start with good and honorable intentions ... after all the "am too..am not..am too..am not.."s are finished..we come to this....

Pious Platitudes...(Paraphrased) Basically..... A trite or banal remark or statement, especially one expressed as if it were original or significant marked by sham or hypocrisy