Micah Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) If I had a stage diagram, I would post it...but I don't so I will do my best to explain the stage. Pistol is loaded and placed on either side A or B of a table. For string one, upon the start signal, the shooter retrieves the pistol and engages T1-T12 with ONE round each. String two is the same, however the pistol is placed on the opposite side of the table. The shooter (Production) on the first string engages all targets, but slide locks on T1, shooting no rounds at it. String two, the shooter engages T1 with 2 rounds, and proceeds to engage the rest with one. What is the official ruling? Clearly the asshat shooter (okay...it was me ) shot the strings this way to avoid having to reload on both strings. Edited November 7, 2006 by Pharaoh Bender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Need to see the writeup for sure... US9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. shooting more than the required rounds on a target, but shooting at fewer targets than specified in any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target not engaged in any string. This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Was this a Virginia Count Stage? If so, then you get 1 FTE and 1M on the 1st string and 1 Extra Hit & 1 Extra Shot on the second string. If it was Comstock - good job gaming that baby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) I am officially giving you 1 procedural. Edited November 7, 2006 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 I KNEW that I would leave out some important info The stage was suprisingly Comstock. And I think that it bears repeating that the RO that ran me is one of the most knowledgable in the game...I just had a deep curiosity for what others thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) COMSTOCK ........ FTE Edited November 7, 2006 by CHRIS KEEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 9.4.5.3 pertains to Virginia Count or Fixed Time courses of fire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 How'd the stage description read? If it said anything like: "String 1: Engage T1-12 with ....." you'd need to get a procedural for not engaging a target...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 How'd the stage description read? If it said anything like: "String 1: Engage T1-12 with ....." you'd need to get a procedural for not engaging a target...... Nik, the stage description said just that. I certainly don't disagree with that call, I just want to be able to quantify it in the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout454 Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 It's an illegal stage. More than 9 shots from one position. Even if it's a level 1 match, if stage designers are going to violet the rule book like that then you should be able to shoot it the best way you can. That's why they call it "Freestyle". The NRA had one similar several months ago. 5 targets/2 on each; mandatory reload and 4 poppers through a barrel. Shooting single stack, 2 on each of the first 3 targets and one on each of the next two; reloaded, shot the 4 poppers through the barrel and came out of the barrel and engaged the last two targets with one round each. Same cr@p. Two procedurals on an illegal stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 It's an illegal stage. More than 9 shots from one position. Even if it's a level 1 match, if stage designers are going to violet the rule book like that then you should be able to shoot it the best way you can. That's why they call it "Freestyle".The NRA had one similar several months ago. 5 targets/2 on each; mandatory reload and 4 poppers through a barrel. Shooting single stack, 2 on each of the first 3 targets and one on each of the next two; reloaded, shot the 4 poppers through the barrel and came out of the barrel and engaged the last two targets with one round each. Same cr@p. Two procedurals on an illegal stage. It had 3 ports or positions. String 1. Engage T1-T12 with one rd each. You had to move around a table to 3 ports to see all targets. Not illegal and ONE FTE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Stage was shot from two ports ...... only (three different positions) And Freestyle dosent mean you can skip targets. T1-T12 means you need to engage T1-T12 ....... EACH STRING Edited November 7, 2006 by CHRIS KEEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 It had 3 ports or positions. String 1. Engage T1-T12 with one rd each. You had to move around a table to 3 ports to see all targets. Not illegal and ONE FTE I'm pretty sure that if you assess the FTE than you have to assess the miss - because that means that you're treating each string as a separate stage (which is the proper way to do strings) but if you didn't score and tape between strings, than you have no grounds for assessing any penalties - it's freestyle babeee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 It had 3 ports or positions. String 1. Engage T1-T12 with one rd each. You had to move around a table to 3 ports to see all targets. Not illegal and ONE FTE I'm pretty sure that if you assess the FTE than you have to assess the miss - because that means that you're treating each string as a separate stage (which is the proper way to do strings) but if you didn't score and tape between strings, than you have no grounds for assessing any penalties - it's freestyle babeee Kath 12 rds. He shot Production 10 + 1 and the target was 4-5 feet away. But even if its 50 yards away and you don't shoot at a target with at least 1 rd, its a FTE. Freestyle or no style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 It had 3 ports or positions. String 1. Engage T1-T12 with one rd each. You had to move around a table to 3 ports to see all targets. Not illegal and ONE FTE I'm pretty sure that if you assess the FTE than you have to assess the miss - because that means that you're treating each string as a separate stage (which is the proper way to do strings) but if you didn't score and tape between strings, than you have no grounds for assessing any penalties - it's freestyle babeee Kath 12 rds. He shot Production 10 + 1 and the target was 4-5 feet away. But even if its 50 yards away and you don't shoot at a target with at least 1 rd, its a FTE. Freestyle or no style. Two holes in the target - ya ain't gonna convince me noway nohow that it wasn't engaged. At best, you could maybe assess 1 procedural for failing to follow the course description, but that target was engaged - capiche unca? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Illegal stage. US 6.1.1 Multiple Strings = Standard Excercise 6.1.2 Standard Excercise must be Virginia Count or Fixed Time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) It had 3 ports or positions. String 1. Engage T1-T12 with one rd each. You had to move around a table to 3 ports to see all targets. Not illegal and ONE FTE I'm pretty sure that if you assess the FTE than you have to assess the miss - because that means that you're treating each string as a separate stage (which is the proper way to do strings) but if you didn't score and tape between strings, than you have no grounds for assessing any penalties - it's freestyle babeee Kath 12 rds. He shot Production 10 + 1 and the target was 4-5 feet away. But even if its 50 yards away and you don't shoot at a target with at least 1 rd, its a FTE. Freestyle or no style. Two holes in the target - ya ain't gonna convince me noway nohow that it wasn't engaged. At best, you could maybe assess 1 procedural for failing to follow the course description, but that target was engaged - capiche unca? Yes I see your point( I have argued thispoint with many a RO, I personally don't like FTE as a penalty ) but try arguing with a CRO at a major. They will give you a FTE. PS How to you rule on 11 shots? Edited November 7, 2006 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout454 Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Not illegal and ONE FTE It is illegal. US6.1.1 String - A separately timed component of a Standard Exercise. 6.1.2 Standard exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. 1.2.2.1 Standard Exercises must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component Strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12 rounds IF a mandatory reload is specified). Edited November 7, 2006 by Scout454 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Not illegal and ONE FTE It is illegal. US6.1.1 String - A separately timed component of a Standard Exercise. 6.1.2 Standard exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. 1.2.2.1 Standard Exercises must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component Strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12 rounds IF a mandatory reload is specified). My not illegal comment was referring to the "9 shots" It had required movement and multiple ports. It was not a 12 rd stand and shoot at all you could only see 6 targets at a time Edited November 7, 2006 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout454 Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Not illegal and ONE FTE It is illegal. US6.1.1 String - A separately timed component of a Standard Exercise. 6.1.2 Standard exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. 1.2.2.1 Standard Exercises must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component Strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12 rounds IF a mandatory reload is specified). My not illegal comment was referring to the "9 shots" It had required movement and multiple ports. My point was that the stage was illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Yep, illegal even in light of the Level 1 Exception granted under US1.1.5.1 -- Level 1 matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations. I was taught, and have verified, with Mr. Amidon, that the Level 1 Exeption on round count applies to the total round count of the stage (above 32 rounds on a long course, for example), not the round count per component string or position. If we allowed that as an exception, the L10 and Production shooters would be in for a major screwing at many matches. Even so, it sounds like a fun CoF. Edited November 7, 2006 by ima45dv8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Not illegal and ONE FTE It is illegal. US6.1.1 String - A separately timed component of a Standard Exercise. 6.1.2 Standard exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. 1.2.2.1 Standard Exercises must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component Strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12 rounds IF a mandatory reload is specified). My not illegal comment was referring to the "9 shots" It had required movement and multiple ports. My point was that the stage was illegal. In post #18 you refer to the strings being illegal, which they should have been scored between strings and that was a second point brought out later in the discussion by Kath. Yes they should be scored on every string but he shot 11 rds and I have just a little common sense. Could you argue using the rules? yes. Would I? Absolutely not. My reply(post #11) that we are referring to in the above quotes was to post #10 which you stated that more than 9 rds from one position was illegal. It is but as I said the stage didn't require that, so in that instance it wasn't illegal. Edited November 7, 2006 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 A multiple string stage can not be scored comstock. The number of shots per string makes no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 Yep, illegal even in light of the Level 1 Exception granted under US1.1.5.1 -- Level 1 matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations. If we allowed that as an exception, the L10 and Production shooters would be in for a major screwing at many matches. Hell! That's why shooting Production is so great...you're sure to get screwed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Hell! That's why shooting Production is so great...you're sure to get screwed Haha, I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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