The Value

[benos]

To me, the value of Zen lies in its pragmatic nature.

Practical means: Governed by or acquired through practice and action, rather than theory, speculation, or ideals. I read an excellent definition of the pragmatic method by William James. To him, the benefit of the pragmatic method lied in its ability to directly affect those involved. Of what use is a theory unless put into practice?

James defined pragmatism using the "squirrel on the opposite side of the tree" anecdote. I’ll nutshell it. While camping with some friends, he returned to the campfire to find his two companions engaged in a lively debate. The debate: You’re standing facing a tree, and a squirrel is on the opposite side of the tree, (so you can’t see it). As you slowly walk a complete circle around the tree, the (pesky) squirrel also moves completely around the tree, always keeping the tree between the two of you, so you never actually see the squirrel. The question: Did you actually walk a complete circle around the squirrel? One friend says no, because since you and the squirrel were always facing each other, you never actually traveled around the squirrel. (Try it an imaginary tree and with a friend as the squirrel, and it has merit.) The other friend draws two circles on the ground, one illustrating the squirrel’s movement and the other illustrating the man’s movement. Now it appears obvious that the man did indeed completely walk around the squirrel. Who is correct? Mr. James cut through the idle speculation with the skill of a Zen master, using, of course, his Pragmatic Method. He said simply that since the answer to the (theoretical) question would not actually affect either the man or the squirrel, the question itself was pointless. That’s the Zen/Pragmatic method at its finest. If what you’re considering won’t actually affect you, don’t worry about it.

Wherever you find a problem, Zen, or awareness (produced by inquiry), will be there with a direct solution. Impersonal inquiry cuts to the root.

Originally, Zen/Buddhism arose in response to the great problem of life and death, and in so doing, offered us freedom from the chains of fear (of death) which drive our life.

The good news is we don’t have to join a monastery, or meditate until our true nature reveals itself, to benefit from what Zen, or awareness, has to offer. By the simple, direct method/practice of observing our own mind, Zen exposes the views and opinions we harbor that limit the effectiveness of our every action – mental or physical.

A problem indicates a conclusion. As adults, we can’t help but cherish opinions, but through the wisdom of awareness, we can transcend them. Any psychological state can be changed – because we created it in the first place.

Whenever you find a problem, simply look into your own mind – search diligently for your own subjective views that are producing the resistance.

When you find something you’d like to change – get simple, get direct - look right into the source of the problem. Avoid the natural tendency to reason or calculate your way out. Also avoid the tendency to want the problem to "go away." Instead, ask – what is absolutely necessary, at this moment, to succeed? Often, if we just drop our preconceived notions of what we want, or should be doing, and instead, inquire into the essentials of what must be done, the solution will not only be apparent, but will effortlessly and spontaneously apply itself. That’s awareness at its finest!

Who among us wouldn’t like to improve some aspect of our life?

All real learning takes place in the stillness of awareness. It’s ours to use, why not use it?

be

[Singlestack]

There is a lot of stuff about my life that could use improvement.

I agree with the guy who thought the man walked around the (pesky) squirrel.......  

[Rich Bagoly]

I was playing cards once with a guy who decided that he needed to change his luck, and declared that he would get up and walk around his chair to do so.

I reached over and turned his chair around so that he was always on the same side of it.

His luck did not change, so I conclude that he did not walk around the chair.    

I think that knowing what the problem is, is the most important step in finding a solution.

[GunRunner]

I think pragmatism can also be used as an excuse not to find a solution.  A balance needs to be applied. There is seldom Only One Way to Answer anything. An open thinking mind is an asset, it keeps you from falling into the traps of only having one point of reference, one view.

Did the man circle the squirrel? Yes, IF there was a squrrel.

Did it affect their lives? Yes. They stopped what they were doing and Thought about the situation, explored possibilities. How is that a bad thing? Didn't they take time to Think? Is Thinking really bad in this instance?

Did it have a Major effect on their lives? Probably not. Most people tend to Think at a shallow level, not comparing each situation to other situations, and their own lives.

What other questions were being ignored?  How did the squirrel Know How to keep from view? Was there really a squirrel on the other side of the tree? It was never seen...

What did pragmatism accomplish with the squirrel/tree scenerio? It put things into perspective After they thougt about it. Its a tool to use, a means to an end, not an end in its self.

Is pragmatism without flaws? No. Would you want to live in a country where everyone was only pragmatic? Wouldn't it degrade into less and less thought, deeds, desire to do anything?

Pragmatisim and thought both have their place. And both can get in the way of your goals unless you use them where they are appropriate.

Brian admits to thinking through to the best way to shoot a stage being pragmatic. The actual shooting of the stage is where thinking gets in the way. I've experienced this in playing pool, i'm not a very good shot, but after i figure out the shot if i can stop thinking, clear my mind, and Just Do It, then i've made shots others thought impossible for me.  I've called it Zen Pool for a while.

A Balance has to be applied to something like pool or shooting, think it through, filter it through pragmatism, then Just Do It.

Just my $.02

mike

(Edited by GunRunner at 5:08 pm on Dec. 2, 2001)

[benos]

GunRunner,

'Is pragmatism without flaws?"

Of coures not. We'd be living in an Ayn Rand novel. That would suck - no compassion.

"Brian admits to thinking through to the best way to shoot a stage being pragmatic."

Actually, I don't always feel that way. Often, I decide how to shoot a stage (or accomplish a specific task) by trusting my intuition. And then again, probably just as often I take the pragmatic approach. I don't consciously decide which approach to use, I let my intuition do that. Whether I go for the hunch or the pragmatic approach probably depends on how comfortable I feel with the pragmatic option.

I wrote about Zen being pragmatic in response to a friend's statement, several years ago, who at the time didn't really know anything about Zen; but he THOUGHT Zen would be of no use because (he thought) Zen study required something akin to acquiring a religious view, or studing and practicing a bunch of esoteric nonsense. Nothing could be further from the truth; becauset the aim of Zen is to know our own mind as it really is. What could be more practical/pragmatic? Even so, the more we study (our mind), the more the mind begins to function with insight. So Zen delivers practical (personally valuable) knowledge by way of intuition.

(I used to shoot a lot of pool.) I've often felt I could "feel" my way through a pool game better than I can shoot my way through a match. That's the tough thing about IPSC shooting - it's hard to capture those feels at the critical moment. Pool is cool.

be

[GunRunner]

Hi Brian,

 Have you ever wondered, if the roles of Pool and Shooting (in your life) were reversed that Pool would then be the one  that became "hard to capture those feels at the critical moment" and Shooting would become the one that  "often felt I could "feel" my way through"? I'm guessing that you shoot Pool strictly for recreation, as I do. So, Do you feel that the extra pressure of Competition is a factor in this?

Intuition is a mysterious thing. Its like a 'Just Do It' for the mind. Based in experience and knowledge, able to go from piont A to piont D without consience thought intervening, not revealing the the B and C, but it seems they have to be there . It is highly likely, in your case, a bit of pragmatism is involved in the equasion.

BTW, i got the book today, Thanks for the fast service! Actually it came yesterday, to work, but i worked late on a job in another city and didn't stop back by the shop, it was out of the way.

mike

[benos]

mike,

I given that plenty of consideration. My feeling is that it's the perceived time pressure of IPSC that makes it tough (to slow down and capture those "feelizations"). All the great (revealing) visualizations that have occurred in pool, just appeared while playing (or competing). I've received similar feelizations when shooting a pistol slowfire, but when functioning at speed, they're fewer and farther between. And since you kind of "disappear in the action," they're difficult to recall and cultivate.

be

[Duane Thomas]

"Did the man circle the squirrel? Yes, IF there was a squrrel. Did it affect their lives? Yes. They stopped what they were doing and Thought about the situation, explored possibilities. How is that a bad thing? Didn't they take time to Think? Is Thinking really bad in this instance?"

If you're looking at it from a standpoint of Zen pragmatism, I would think it would be a bad thing they stopped to think, if what they were thinking about was something as worthless as whether or not there was a squirrel and whether or not they walked around it. I would think the true Zen response would be to say, "Who cares if there's a squirrel?" and then go on to more worthwhile endeavors.

A psychologist once told me about a way to order your thoughts so as not to waste time worrying about things that simply aren't worth it. Take a sheet of paper and fold it in half lengthwise; then fold it again crosswise. Open it up and what you'll have is a sheet of paper divided by crease marks into four equally sized boxes. The boxes are then labeled according to two criteria: whether what you're worrying about is important, and whether or not you can do anything to change it. It should look something like this:

                                                   :        

Important/Can Change It       :  Important/Can't Change It

                                                   :        

                                                   :        

                                                   :  

--------------------------------------:-----------------------------------------

                                                   :    

Not Important/                         :  Not Important/      

Can Change It                          :  Can't Change It          

                                                   :            

                                                   :            

                                                   :            

     

Then you take every single thing you're worrying about at that time in your life and write it out in one of those four boxes. Be honest with yourself about whether or not a particular worry is really important, and put some thought into just what could be done to rectify a particular point. Once you've done that, you look at your list and put all your thought and resources into the items listed in Block #1, the stuff that's important and that you can do something about. Because if you can't do anything to improve the situation, what's the use of worrying about it, whether it's important or not? And if it's not important, whether you can change the situation or not, again, what's the point of worrying about it?

If you're a real worryholic, you may find you've got 30 or 40 things listed. It's amazing how few of them, proportially speaking, will be in Block #1. So you can cut out a lot of wasted mental energy by using this process to order your thoughts.

The final step, of course, is to take another sheet of paper, list every item in Block #1 and then also write down next to it the solution to the problem, what you can do to improve the situation, and then actually start doing it.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 5:26 pm on Dec. 17, 2001)

[benos]

What's that old Zen saying - "God please grant me the strength to change the things I can, accept the things I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference."

be

[Duane Thomas]

The only Zen saying found hanging on the walls of finer bathrooms all across America.

[GunRunner]

>I would think the true Zen response would be to say, "Who cares if there's a squirrel?" and then go on to more worthwhile endeavors.<

But is the true Zen responce always the best responce? We no longer live in the simple society that fathered Zen. Another problem is most people wouldn't "go on to more worthwhile endeavors". And thinking things through as a learning experience is in its self a worthwhile endeavour. To put this into perspective, they were out camping and possibly weren't involved worthwhile endeavours and at that time had none. Most people camp now a days for relaxation, not as a worthwhile endeavour in its self, other than the diversion from everyday complexity. The problem with anecdotes is that they leave too much to be assumed and only focus on one point. Life isn't so simple. And the true Zen responce can be taken to the extremes. Isn't it with a proper balance when we can acheve our best?

I'm looking at this from the perspective of the newly inititated and Duane and Brian (and the Zen Master) are looking at it from the perspective of well on your journey. Any journey takes you from point A to point Z, and every journey has detours, little journeys along the way. Its what you learn from your journeys that lets you progress... How can you learn if you don't think about life and its problems?

~~~~~

Rocks: a meaning for life.

A philosophy professor stood before his class and had some items in front of him.  When the class began, wordlessly he picked up a large empty mayonnaise jar and proceeded to fill it with rocks, rocks about 2 inches in diameter. He then asked the students if the jar was full? They agreed that it was.

So the professor then picked up a box of pebbles and poured them into the jar. He shook the jar lightly. The pebbles, of course, rolled into the open areas between the rocks. He then asked the students again if the jar was full. They agreed it was. The students laughed.

The professor picked up a box of sand and poured it into the jar. Of course, the sand filled up everything else.  "Now," said the professor, "I want you to recognise that this jar is your life.  The rocks are the important things - your family, your partner, your health, your children - things that if everything else was lost and only they remained, your life would still be full.  The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, your house, your car. The sand is everything else. The small stuff.  "If you put the sand into the jar first, there is no room for the pebbles or the rocks.  The same goes for your life. If you spend all your time and   energy on the small stuff, you will never have room for the things that are important to you.  Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness. Play with your children. Take time to get medical checkups. Take your partner out dancing.  There will always be time to go to work, clean the house, give a dinner party and fix the disposal.  "Take care of the rocks first - the things that really matter.  Set your priorities. The rest is just sand."

But then... A student then took the jar which the other students and the professor  agreed was full, and proceeded to pour in a can of beer. Of course the beer filled the remaining spaces within the jar making the jar truly full.

Which proves:  that no matter how full your life is, there is always room for a beer.

~~~~~

To me one moral of this story is once you fix your mind with Answers, you stop questioning, searching... IOW even the student can teach the professor, But both have to be able to think to do so. Pragmatism has its place but it needs to be balanced with other outlooks. The tricky part is not getting trapped by your view and in knowing when to apply and to what degree to apply pragmatism.

Of course as this applies to actions, especially fast paced actions, your view must not be cluttered by thinking about every little detail or you'll grind to a halt. But then thats where training comes in. When pragmatism is applied to trained actions it will cut through the clutter of thought allowing you to act as you were trained.

The folded paper is a good tool to help organize our thoughts. But as you probably realize, what is important is what ever we make important. If learning new perspectives, like with the squirrel and tree ancedote isn't important to you then its easy to dismiss it. As others dismiss competative shooting.

The bottom line is you must think in order to be pragmatic, and this must be kept clear to us newly initatied or we can fall into the trap of not thinking at all. I think we are agreeing on this topic, its just that we are looking at it from different perspectives. I'm exposed to so many people every day who seem to search for an excuse not to think that i tend to be a bit defensive about that. I keep trying to get people to think, if only for a short while.

mike

[benos]

Mike,

If I think too much about pragmatism, it just takes me farther from the meaning (and personal value). The squirrel story is written with the given that the squirrel is indeed there, although not currently visible by the individual facing the tree. To put the story in a Zen perspective, the man walking around the tree portrays the  "search" for the "answer"; the tree represents the obstacle of learned knowledge, and the squirrel symbolizes true reality, (which is unstained by human thought and emotion). According to those who dedicated there lives to understanding just exactly what is going on in this crazy place we call the world, the squirrel is indeed there, but we just can't perceive it as long as we cherish personal views and opinions. The story also illustrates that the man (mankind) could walk around the tree forever and never see the squirrel. The (pragmatic) point is - only when we stop struggling within the framework of our conditioned patterns, i.e., believing we can think our way out of emotional conflicts in the same way we use rational thought to fix our car (if you're mechanically inclined), can we step outside our conditioning and experience the squirrel (reality) as it is (without the distortion produced by perception). In the original story, leaving aside for the moment whether or not the squirrel is actually there, did the individuals involved actually benefit from debating whether or not the "searcher" walked around the squirrel? No. To take the story further - would anyone have benefited if he'd walked around the tree forever? No. Well, except maybe he would have been in great shape. That's why I brought up the IDEA of pragmatism with regard to Zen. The pragmatic value of raising inquiry (studying Zen) is genuine, lasting, beneficial, personal transformation. Other than that, it's all just talk. At the instant thinking/self-talking exhausts itself, the door of spontaneous realization cracks open. True learning takes place in the stillness of awareness. All this (talk) is just to get us to know our mind as it really is. To me, that's as practical as it can get.

be

[Duane Thomas]

G.R.,

I must say, it's a pleasure to have a dialogue with someone as thoughtful and articulate as yourself.

I don't really think the place for analytical thought is during live fire training, as weird as that might sound. Analysis just gets in the way of meaningful experience. It seems, to me at least, that you'll learn far more, much more swiftly, if you put your subconscious mind in charge of your practice sessions.

In the book THE INNER GAME OF TENNIS, the author relates the following story. Let's say you want to learn how to dance; you go to a dance school. The instructor shows you the footprint outlines on the floor and says, "Okay, put your right foot here, and your left foot there, then step forward with your right foot, shift your weight to the left foot, and at the same time pivot to the right, etc., etc." For weeks you concentrate on the footprints, on doing everything just as the instructor says, and at the end of two weeks you can do a passable version of the dance. This is the equivalent of trying to intellect yourself through a shooting practice session.

Meanwhile one of your fellow students watches the teacher demonstrate the dance a few times and then just....does it. How is that possible? It's not because he's so much smarter or more insightful than you. It's because he didn't try to use his conscious mind to break the process into umpteen individual steps, and then use his conscious mind again, to control the body as it replicated those many, many actions. Instead, he just watched, absorbed the totality of the teacher's actions, and imitated her. This is the equivlanet of letting your subconscious mind run the shooting session, opening yourself up to whatever information is out there to learn, and, perhaps most importantly, letting that process continue through the entire shooting session. Let any changes in your technique just occur naturally without trying to direct the process.

The subconscious mind is far, far faster than the conscious mind. It can process multiple inputs, intuit changes and implement them, without ever engaging the conscious mind, which is far slower and can really only deal with one thing at a time. The problem is that the conscious mind is like an overbearing boss who just has to micromanage. It doesn't want to give up control. And even if you can clear your mind of conscious thought and just let the shooting happen, as soon as you do something right and notice it, the conscious mind wants to jump right back in again and analyze the event: "Hey! You just did something right. Let me give you MY invaluable input on what just happened." That's why we have a tendency to have breakthroughs in our shooting where we perform great, and then can't replicate them afterwards. We're consciously trying to recapture the experience. But the experience came from not consciously trying, so consciously trying to replicate it is, by definitiion, an undertaking foredoomed to failure.

I'm not saying we should never consciously analyze our shooting. But I'm pretty sure the place for that is BETWEEN live fire practice sessions. While you're on the range, just shoot. Experience the shooting with a calm and clear mind. You can analyze it all later. Even the value and necessity of analysis later is open to debate. I'd be fascinated to hear what Ghost Dog has to say on the topic.

Of course that's just my $.02 - which might be about what it's worth!

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 4:02 pm on Sep. 14, 2002)

[jessej]

Awesome!  I hope I can sleep now.  

Jesse.

[SiG Lady]

Again, the purpose of living is to discover the purpose of living. Then when we find that the purpose is

Non-existent

Ambiguous

Entirely up to us

(or all of the above) (or none of...)

then it's time to create our own purpose from the proverbial nothing.

The secret is there is no secret.

Kinda makes me think of what BE says on p. 139 of The Book about "Trick of the Day."

[38supPat]

What if I just shot the damn pesky squirrel THROUGH the tree

[cr10x]

To put the story in a Zen perspective, the man walking around the tree portrays the  "search" for the "answer"; the tree represents the obstacle of learned knowledge, and the squirrel symbolizes true reality, (which is unstained by human thought and emotion). According to those who dedicated there lives to understanding just exactly what is going on in this crazy place we call the world, the squirrel is indeed there, but we just can't perceive it as long as we cherish personal views and opinions. The story also illustrates that the man (mankind) could walk around the tree forever and never see the squirrel. The (pragmatic) point is - only when we stop struggling within the framework of our conditioned patterns, i.e., believing we can think our way out of emotional conflicts in the same way we use rational thought to fix our car (if you're mechanically inclined), can we step outside our conditioning and experience the squirrel (reality) as it is (without the distortion produced by perception).

Two perspectives on this little exercise:

If you stand in one place with quiet patience, the squirrel will come out from behind the tree. Then you can truly get a shot at it (pun intended).

From a strategic point of view. The man has surrounded the squirrel and thinks he has it trapped. The squirrel is always facing his opposition and thinks he has his problem identified and so never considers another options. Such are the traps we all fall into.

[froglegs]

What memories this thread brings out. Is there a pain emoticon?

[sanzen]

nope. the purpose of life IS living. there is no "purpose" in that life is not a signpost to "somewhere" life is that somewhere, this is where we are trying to get, so just be here.

[Rapt]

Mike,

If I think too much about pragmatism, it just takes me farther from the meaning (and personal value). The squirrel story is written with the given that the squirrel is indeed there, although not currently visible by the individual facing the tree. To put the story in a Zen perspective, the man walking around the tree portrays the  "search" for the "answer"; the tree represents the obstacle of learned knowledge, and the squirrel symbolizes true reality, (which is unstained by human thought and emotion) ...snip...

All this (talk) is just to get us to know our mind as it really is. To me, that's as practical as it can get.

be

And as CR10X pointed out somewhat facetiously, the only way to actually get to see the squirrel is to be patient and still. Once you quit pursuing and simply observe, then the obstacle of learned knowledge will become an obstacle no longer. It ceases to factor into the issue.

If this is not the essence of Zen, ....

[tightloop]

Wonder if it was a Zen type squirrel encounter when The Burner shot the stuffed squirrel? Probably so...

[miyamoto]

Zen...being frustrated trying to "understand zen" is attachment.

Zen is no different from anything else...but its ideas (for lack of better term) can help you to start letting go of conditioned attachment/views of life. Ideas that cause suffering of all types. Zen can let us realize, we only suffer for ourselves...just due to what we place an imaginary value on. This is due to our conditioning in this so called "modern" world.

It is hard to imagine a life where we can live life and do well without emotion/ego getting the best of us. That is only life long conditioning making it so. So, of course changing this life long conditioning could possibly take the remainder of our lives. This is compounded by continuing to live in a world where attachment to mental suffering is almost sought after.

This is why so many stories revolve around Zen masters living in the weeds (in their formative journeys) to simply try to cut off so much outside (other people) conditioned stimulus.

From birth we have had these idea of "success" (as example) pounded into our skulls until it becomes a subconcious mantra/filter and everything we see goes through this filter of our learned/conditioned values. Simple stuff, exept we (anyone on this planet) will kill somebody over these differences of ideas. Not so simple stuff...so we suffer over our likes and dislikes and suffering perpetuates continuously over generations without thought as to the process behind it. It has become an accepted condition...the modern technique if you will(could not resist the jab!!)

The big risk Zen teachers had to take was using "WORDS" as an expedient for zen teachings. But there is not much else. By doing so, the words of zen become a sticking point for conventionally conditioned people to ponder over and suffer over just like everything else we touch/imagine in life.

Life today is no different, or complicated than life of ages ago. Not by one degree. Comparing is just another trap of convenience and egotism. Zen will be just itself long after the last human has expired. Zen is not like, or dislike...it is not harmony, or disharmony. If you are crushed terribly in a car accident and are terribly disfigured...that is zen! beyond our likes and dislikes...The trick is to be able to get over our conditioned views of our own lives in the process. These conditioned, egotistical views of our own self worth. This does not truly exist, except as clinging ideas that give us these mental problems.

Zen will help us to stop comfortably putting things (ideas) in their neat little compartments (mind) to have control...There is no control in the truest sense!

There is only living as intently as we can...then be able to step into our graves with no regrets...that is my "goal" in life. My "grave" can be this next moment...so how can I dally?

What good would it do me to piss on about my sorry lot in life, or something as inane as my lack, or wealth in shooting ablility of all things.

Shooting is no different than anything else...live as intently as we can with no attachments. Results happen that are truly without judgement. Be these results good, or bad is truly of no concern...learn from it (without suffering over it), practice and keep living intently. All of life is the same.

Purpose in life...is really egotistical, insane talk. What happens after we die, who created universe (and how of course), where are aliens, will Iran nuke us someday, I hate this music, or that movie, will gas run out soon, on and on and on. This is a result of selfish conditioning and will only perpetuate the cycle of suffering. We are the only ones that suffer for ourselves. We are left with living life as honestly and as fully as we can. That is all we have. Then we will die. Everything that has come will go. The only constant is change.

Death...Zen is an honest approach to clearing the mind of barnacles like the idea of death...Will my shooting skill seem so damn important when I am about to die...probably not. Zen uses the subject of death as a point to help keep us centered and honest (because the unknown scares us all)in our cleaning process. Now the typically conditioned mind will gripe about Zen dwelling on this whole "death" business. Zen is lack of attachment, or ideas. Don't be selfish. Death is no different from any other natural thing in life. Except we can't read the funnies the next morning!! (as far as I know)

Now, having said all this crap. We all know it is easy to say and hard to do...we will all slip up at times due to a whole life of self-centered/selfish conditioning. That is zen. We might suffer for our small selves terribly at the point of death...don't know...all we have actually is this one moment.

Please don't take me as being some pedantic idiot. I don't know it all, I can only continue my studies (current text of many dozens and highly recommended, is "swampland flower" by J.C. Cleary, younger bro of more famous Thomas Cleary) until I die. But some people posting here on this subject are going down the path of causing yourselves more harm, than good. Please be aware!

Poems like the following can really mess with the every day "gimme" person.

"It is the mind, that is the mind, confusing the mind.

Do not leave the mind, O'mind, to the mind.

or

"Water is pure and penetrates to the depths of the earth.

So a fish swimming through it is fish-free truly.

The sky is vast and transparent to the very confines of the cosmos.

So a bird flying in it is bird-free truly.

uhhg! yeah, I know.

I suffered years, over silly clumps of words like the above. Forget it, there is nothing there at all but one simple tool to allow you to drop your filters/see through affliction even momentarily.

Zen itself is just a stupid word that seems to convey only silly ideas...don't cling to ideas...correct your mind when it sticks, then someday the mind (of its own accord) will not stray/suffer over itself, or this "ego" idea. The cycle of mental suffering will end. You can even change the silly name (of Zen)as long as you don't mind!

good luck,

Will