Chuck D Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 "Part of The New Deal is that USPSA will hold a separate "IPSC USA Nationals" each year (IPSC Level III sanctioned), as well as similar State or Area matches in the lead-up, and I presume those matches wll be used as qualifiers for the World Shoot. I also presume that those matches will follow the "all Divisions at one match, pick one" format, rather than the USPSA split-nationals format. Of course it's still early days yet, and there's much to consider, but I'm confident the end result will be more shooting, and that's always a good thing!" The above quote is a statement made by Vince Pinto on the IPSC Global Village on 7, August 2006. This quote was made with regards to running IPSC rules matches in the U.S. Unless USPSA plans on running 3 plus handgun National Championships per year in the U.S. as well as multiple Sectional and Area Championships (one for IPSC rules and one for USPSA rules) it appears that significant changes may need be implemented. How does (or doesn't) this fit into the current trend of "too many Divisions" and "dilluted talent pool" thought processes of some USPSA members and BOD's ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 One of the bigger hurdles for running IPSC Level III matches might be the lack of certified IPSC officials. Wait...I just looked up the IPSC LIII requirements, it turns out what I heard might have been wrong. IPSC LIII matches can be run with "One RROI/NROI or IROA official per stage". The officials don't have to be IROA officials, which is what I had heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 With all respect to Vince, I don't think the deal was for us to hold Area and Sectional matches. My understanding was that USPSA would hold a few IPSC matches. For 2007 I'm guessing those with be the World Shoot Team Qualifier matches. They're voting on it this weekend, but my money is on at least one being held following one of the National matches. Similar stages, similar RO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 "Part of The New Deal is that USPSA will hold a separate "IPSC USA Nationals" each year (IPSC Level III sanctioned), as well as similar State or Area matches in the lead-up, and I presume those matches wll be used as qualifiers for the World Shoot.I also presume that those matches will follow the "all Divisions at one match, pick one" format, rather than the USPSA split-nationals format. Of course it's still early days yet, and there's much to consider, but I'm confident the end result will be more shooting, and that's always a good thing!" The above quote is a statement made by Vince Pinto on the IPSC Global Village on 7, August 2006. This quote was made with regards to running IPSC rules matches in the U.S. Unless USPSA plans on running 3 plus handgun National Championships per year in the U.S. as well as multiple Sectional and Area Championships (one for IPSC rules and one for USPSA rules) it appears that significant changes may need be implemented. How does (or doesn't) this fit into the current trend of "too many Divisions" and "dilluted talent pool" thought processes of some USPSA members and BOD's ? With all due respect to Mr. Pinto. He is wrong. There is no requirement that any region hold any matches. Think IPSC Japan. This was the response made to USPSA when the proposal to run two sets of rules was first put on the table. My understanding is that USPSA essentially told IPSC that that was unacceptable. Name one other region that has a requirement of any particular number of level One, Two or Three matches. There are none and the USA is not going to be the first. I have been told that USPSA will be holding three (3) IPSC rules matches as World Shoot Team selection matches, but the USPSA Nationals are not and cannot be required to be IPSC. This does not mean that they USPSA Nationals can't be run under IPSC rules, but I think it highly unlikely that they will be. USPSA will be running matches under USPSA rules. IPSC Matches in the USA will be run under IPSC rules. The marketplace will be the ultimate decision maker in this. Will clubs run IPSC or USPSA matches? I know that my home club and most clubs in my section will likely hold USPSA rules matches. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 This is by no means total inclusive of matches which choose to run under IPSC rules (instead of USPSA rules), but here is the wording off the USPSA site as of today (10-19-2006): World Shoot Team Qualification Matches The current World Shoot Team Selection Policy specifies in part that teams will be determined based on point accumulation at specified matches, including “The total points of the best two (of three) BOD approved qualification matches in 2007.” The qualification matches will be selected by the board from among Level III matches willing and able to adhere to the following criterion that submit a proposal no later than July 31, 2006. Qualifying matches must agree to use and enforce all IPSC rules without the US exceptions. IPSC rules differ from USPSA rules on such issues as warnings, sight pictures, Division and category definitions, power factors, and ammunition requirements among others. Matches must be IPSC sanctioned as Level III events ( see http://www.ipsc.org/regmat.php ). IPSC criterion for Level III matches can be found on page 78 (Appendix A1 – IPSC Match Levels) of the current (green) rule book. Matches may, at their option, participate in the USPSA official match ammunition program. Final selection of qualifying matches will be dependent upon the best national mix of interested matches as to match dates and geographic location. If a match is not selected, nothing prevents holding the match under this criterion without the qualifier designation. I don't know which matches made the application deadline. I do believe that the Summer Blast and the Targeting Education matches were looking to run as IPSC Level III matches...and as qualifier matches for World Shoot team selection. ??? Also... under: WorldShootTeamSelection 12. The term "BOD approved qualification match" shall be defined as follows : Three separate matches in 2007 designated by the BOD as “approved qualification match”. Approved qualification matches will be listed on the USPSA website under the Major Match heading prior to 1-1-07. I see no mention, nor intention, of running an "IPSC Nationals" in the US of A. Since there was a deadline of July 31, 2006 to apply to become one of the IPSC LIII World Shoot qualifying matches...I would assume that the BOD has a short list of matches to choose from already (note...that deadline was pretty tight...many Match Directors may not have been aware of it). From that list, the BOD needs to pick their matches...before the end of the year...about 2 months (or amend their policy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 From that list, the BOD needs to pick their matches...before the end of the year...about 2 months (or amend their policy). Many of us have jobs or professions that require us to plan major trips well ahead. Amending and procrastinating would not be a good option here. I'm hoping the selections will be published shortly after the BOD's annual meeting this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caps Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 With all due respect to Mr. Pinto. He is wrong. There is no requirement that any region hold any matches. You're wrong and Mr. Pinto is right and I suppose that's why he's secretary You should check your facts like I do before making crazy comments. Every country has to run matches under IPSC rules and that's the basis of the dispute with the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Yeah, not really. The "dispute" between IPSC and USPSA is about rules. That much is true. IPSC and USPSA have a different philosophy in some areas of the rules, and that has led to some disagreements over time. IPSC would like USPSA to run IPSC matches according to the IPSC rules in the US. For the last several years, USPSA has been operating under a "waiver", which has allowed us to have a "US-specific" version of the IPSC rules. But that has not solved the conflict, it has only made it easy to ignore until the next rulebook. In an attempt to solve the conflict, the USPSA Board voted earlier this year to define a new alignment with IPSC. We will run some IPSC matches in the US under "pure IPSC" rules. At the same time, we reserve the right to *also* run other forms of practical shooting competition, under USPSA rules (which we are writing right now). There is no requirement that a region run a specific number of IPSC matches to be a valid IPSC region - in point of fact, there are regions which do not allow gun ownership by civilians. But it *is* required that if a match is an "IPSC match", it is supposed to be run under IPSC rules. So, whatever "IPSC matches" we run in the US will be run under IPSC rules. There will, for example, as Chuck said, be some number of "World Shoot Qualifier" matches, and those will be run under international rules. But, to believe that *USPSA* Area matches or *USPSA* Nationals will be run under IPSC rules would be mistaken. My bet is that those will be run according to USPSA rules. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 (edited) Edited because Bruce beat me to it. Any idea if the reduction of matches held under IPSC rules (waiver or not) will have an effect on the number of slots the US receives for the World Shoot? Edited October 20, 2006 by Lawman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Any idea if the reduction of matches held under IPSC rules (waiver or not) will have an effect on the number of slots the US receives for the World Shoot? In theory it should not. The amount of slots available to each region is a consequence of it's size. Up to the 3000 limit. So any region that has 3000 members or more gets the most slots. So we should easily have enough slots for OPEN, STANDARD, PRODUCTION, REVOLVER and LADIES teams. Once the teams have been chosed by each country there may be some slots left available for the rest of us to go for. Again those are normally dished out to the regions that want them, again based on size. USA typically sends more competitors than any other region to the WS and I would not expect that to change based on the number of IPSC matches that we host. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Any idea if the reduction of matches held under IPSC rules (waiver or not) will have an effect on the number of slots the US receives for the World Shoot? I wouldn't be suprised. Then again, I heard recently that IPSC (Vince & Company) made it a point to ensure that the US shooters got plenty of slots to the last World Shoot or two. This conversation, apparently, came up in response to Eric G. not being given a slot to the 2006 USPSA Open Nationals (which was USPSA following the stated policy for slot distribution according to the prior year's shooting participation). So...if my info is right...Vince & Company should/would probably try to grab the high road here and make sure that any US Shooters that wanted to go to Bali would get a slot to do so. Which is probably a very good move on their part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Way off topic, but... I plan to introduce a motion this weekend, which would change the slot policy so that the current Open and Standard World Champions would be included in the "earned slot" allocations for a slot to the US Nationals. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 ----------------- You should check your facts like I do before making crazy comments. Every country has to run matches under IPSC rules and that's the basis of the dispute with the US. That just not true either..and a bit arrogant to boot. Not only don't "we" have to run matches under IPSC rules, we don't have to run them under USPSA rules either. In fact, I know of plenty of nice matches that do rather well without either organization (and, without IDPA as well). We (USPSA) should have learned that when IDPA split off. IPSC should have learned that then too. I hope nobody forgets that American shooters are the rock solid foundation of freedom, innovation and independent thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Way off topic, but... I plan to introduce a motion this weekend, which would change the slot policy so that the current Open and Standard World Champions would be included in the "earned slot" allocations for a slot to the US Nationals.Bruce Good idea, but please don't forget Production Division Champion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Good point. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 With all due respect to Mr. Pinto. He is wrong. There is no requirement that any region hold any matches. You're wrong and Mr. Pinto is right and I suppose that's why he's secretary You should check your facts like I do before making crazy comments. Every country has to run matches under IPSC rules and that's the basis of the dispute with the US. How many IPSC matches were run in Japan this year? Last Year? Japan is an IPSC Region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 With all due respect to Mr. Pinto. He is wrong. There is no requirement that any region hold any matches. You're wrong and Mr. Pinto is right and I suppose that's why he's secretary You should check your facts like I do before making crazy comments. Every country has to run matches under IPSC rules and that's the basis of the dispute with the US. How many IPSC matches were run in Japan this year? Last Year? Japan is an IPSC Region. Japanese law prevents IPSC Japan from holding matches in their own country but IPSC Japan does hold IPSC matches ............ they hold them in Guam and the Philippines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 If anybody in Guam, the Philippines, Canada, etc. would like to shoot USPSA matches, let me know. I could see about getting you in to the Ohio Section of USPSA (if you didn't want to join as an independent club). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mminmm Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 (edited) If anybody in Guam, the Philippines, Canada, etc. would like to shoot USPSA matches, let me know. I could see about getting you in to the Ohio Section of USPSA (if you didn't want to join as an independent club). Why would we want to shoot matches in Ohio? IMHO, our matches are far more exciting. The match in Cebu 2 weeks ago had over 500 competitors. And our Area matches on the average get 300 competitors. Not bad for a small region and when you consider that the USPSA Nationals only gets just over 350 competitors. Besides, most Filipinos would like to shoot the USPSA Nats but what chance do we have of getting a slot when Eric G. couldn't even get one for himself. No chance for us small guys. Edited October 20, 2006 by mminmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Why would we want to shoot matches in Ohio? IMHO, our matches are far more exciting. Really? Which match in Ohio did you find boring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mminmm Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Why would we want to shoot matches in Ohio? IMHO, our matches are far more exciting. Really? Which match in Ohio did you find boring? I've been to the matches in Quincy but never set foot in Ohio. Have you seen the matches in the Philippines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Well when you consider that in the US, particularly in my region of the country, i can't begin to shoot all the matches that are available to me on a given weekend. Within a three hour drive there are almost always more matches than days to shoot them. US Nationals. A lot of people don't go,they don't have to go to shoot, they are in many cases at home shooting a match with a goodly number of shooters on the same weekends as our Area, Section or National matches. Example, next weekend, we are hosting a Multi-gun, there is at least one other major Multi-gun in driving distance of our match. Additionaly this weekend there are aagin too many matches to shoot than I can get to. In some areas of the world, I would assume, perhaps wrongly, that some regions have a match, you either belong to the local organization or you don't own a gun and you don't shoot, so obviously there is a forced participation that could inflate the neumbers. One thing that every one tends to forget is that in the US, we don't need to belong to a club or an organization to own or shoot guns. And we don't have to travel to other countries to hold a match. Maybe IPSC should consider the ability of a people to own guns and shoot them intheir own country befre they make them a region. IPSC Japan sound more like an Area of GUam or Phillippines. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 I may be wrong (gee what a novel idea) but I think the following from the IPSC Constitution demands of each Region that they run at least one match, each year, sufficient to name a Champion. (5) To conduct a competitive programme under IPSC Rules sufficient to designate in each year a Champion. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 So...does that mean the U.S. Region would run a pair of handgun Nationals like we did in '06 AND an IPSC-USA Nationals? add a 3 gun Nationals and you've got a REALLY busy slate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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