Powder Choice For Reducing Recoil?

[thefish]

I am loading 12Ga, 1oz of #8 shot in AA hulls w/Win 209 primers. I am using AA wads. I am trying to reduce the recoil a bit more, does the powder burn rate effect recoil? Right now, I am using IMR 700X. Any suggestions on what to try....a faster powder?....a slower powder?

[JD45]

You can't get much better if you are loading them under 1200fps. Actually you can take a 1125-1150 fps load and break any target on a skeet field or trap singles ( many shooters use that speed for handicap too).

I have shot 700X for many years, but recently switched to Clays because I had a bunch for pistol. The actual muzzle velocity is the same, so I can't notice any less recoil. Clays does seem to make a little less noise though.

[Irishlad]

What speed are you loading them at now?

As mentioned, reducing the speed will lower your recoil, both real and "felt".

Is there any "other kind" of recoil except "felt". Sorry, I just had to add that.

A lot of 1 oz loads are rated in the 1290 FPS "range" which I believe, gives about the same recoil as a 1 1/8 oz load at 1200 FPS. I mention that because it's assumed lowering the shot charge automatically reduces recoil. That's true at the same velocities, but increase them and the "whack" comes back.

In the "old days", when you didn't have a hundred different types of powders and everyone shot the 1 1/8 load, "slower" powders like Green Dot were thought to have less "felt recoil" than a faster Red Dot. I believed it back then, but I don't now. Green Dot does, however, make the "core pattern" more dense.

Or, try 7/8 loads in the 1200-1250 FPS for a really light load. Clays is a good powder for that, mainly because they have a fair amount of "loads" available.

Good luck.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Irishlad

[sargenv]

All good advice.. Clays, Red Dot, Green Dot, other slower powders to make the burn less violent are good. On the other side of the coin, adding weight to the gun will reduce felt recoil. Some people I know added lead shot to the rear stocks of guns with the Polymer stocks. Mercury Recoil reducers also apparently work in a similar fashion. Adding weight to the gun and also some kind of counter-action going on with the liquid mercury in the tubes. When I want a light load, I tend to go the route of less shot, less felt recoil. 7/8 ounce #8's with Red Dot, Clays, 700x, and other powders of this class. You might also try International clays as it burns a bit slower, Maybe Alliant Select, E3, PB, Titewad, and there are now even loads for Titegroup on the Hodgdon site.

Vince

[thefish]

What speed are you loading them at now?

As mentioned, reducing the speed will lower your recoil, both real and "felt".

Is there any "other kind" of recoil except "felt". Sorry, I just had to add that.

A lot of 1 oz loads are rated in the 1290 FPS "range" which I believe, gives about the same recoil as a 1 1/8 oz load at 1200 FPS. I mention that because it's assumed lowering the shot charge automatically reduces recoil. That's true at the same velocities, but increase them and the "whack" comes back.

In the "old days", when you didn't have a hundred different types of powders and everyone shot the 1 1/8 load, "slower" powders like Green Dot were thought to have less "felt recoil" than a faster Red Dot. I believed it back then, but I don't now. Green Dot does, however, make the "core pattern" more dense.

Or, try 7/8 loads in the 1200-1250 FPS for a really light load. Clays is a good powder for that, mainly because they have a fair amount of "loads" available.

Good luck.

Thanks for your advice. I haven't yet chrono'd them, but according to a table, it is 1200fps.

Regarding, the 7/8 loads, I am using a Benelli semi-auto. Do you think a 7/8 load would be enough to cycle the action?

[Irishlad]

That's a good question as to whether it will cycle 7/8 oz loads at lower velocities. I don't think you will gain much in recoil reduction with a 7/8(24 gram) load at 1290 compared to a 1 oz(28 gram) at 1200.

As mentioned by JD45, you might try the 1 oz at 1150- since you are "set-up" for it. Just don't make many shells... just in case.

If not to your liking, then try 7/8 oz starting at 1290 down to 1200, perhaps. See if they cycle and you like the way they shoot.

If none of those work, since they are at the "low-end" scale of 12 gauge recoil, I'd would start to "investigate" where/when the recoil is bothering you, i.e. shoulder, face, stock doesn't fit, etc. "When" means are you sore after 10 shots or 100?

The "fit" could really be the problem to be honest. Weight of the gun is a big factor also, relative to how many shells you fire.

Sorry, that may not be much help!

[Rockchucker]

That's a good question as to whether it will cycle 7/8 oz loads at lower velocities. I don't think you will gain much in recoil reduction with a 7/8(24 gram) load at 1290 compared to a 1 oz(28 gram) at 1200.

As mentioned by JD45, you might try the 1 oz at 1150- since you are "set-up" for it. Just don't make many shells... just in case.

If not to your liking, then try 7/8 oz starting at 1290 down to 1200, perhaps. See if they cycle and you like the way they shoot.

If none of those work, since they are at the "low-end" scale of 12 gauge recoil, I'd would start to "investigate" where/when the recoil is bothering you, i.e. shoulder, face, stock doesn't fit, etc. "When" means are you sore after 10 shots or 100?

The "fit" could really be the problem to be honest. Weight of the gun is a big factor also, relative to how many shells you fire.

Sorry, that may not be much help!

I've been loading for competition shotgun (Skeet-Trap-Sporting) for 40 years and most of the advise given here is appropriate. When trying to reduce recoil and yet maintain the charge weight and the velocity of that charge, the only option as far as the actual load goes is to experiment with the powder.

The 1 oz. Winchester target load is actualy loaded with a cannister grade of WSL powder, which was specificaly developed for loading in 1 oz. loads. You might try that. Universal Clays, Green Dot and the old Dupont PB are "slower burning" powders and all have a place in finding a reduced recoil load.

Red Dot, which was mentioned earlier is definetly a "fast" burner and short of reducing the amount of powder, and therefore velocity, it is not going to produce "less recoil". In the 50's to early 70's the most common trap and skeet powders were Red Dot and 700X. The reason for their popularity was that the average trap/skeet load held about 17-18 grs of powder so the load was economical, compared to the slower burning powders like Unique, Green Dot or PB, which normally used 20-22 grs to achieve the same velocity.

Recoil sensitive competitiors frequently burned a little more powder (more expense) to achieve less recoil by switching to the "slower burning" powders. The slow burners produced more of a soft push type of recoil as opposed to the snappy faster accelerating "fast burners". If you are an action pistol competitor, you see the same thing when USPSA and IDPA shooters seek to reduce recoil and muzzle jump by going to heavier bullets that are pushed by "slower burning" propellants inorder to make "Power Factors".

A 1 oz. load at 1150-1200 fps is a great target breaker. Try using those "slower burning" powders.

Those light 1 oz. loads might struggle to cycle your semi-auto. A gas operated semi-auto can have the gas ports opened up to achieve reliable cycling or the carrier/operating rod can be swiss cheesed to reduce it's weight. But with a blow back type of semi-auto you are limited to what you can do. As mentioned, adding weight to the gun can help if it doesn't effect the dynamics of the gun's swing. Another option would be to have the barrel's forcing cones lengthened. This is about a $40 operation and kind of smooths the jump of the shot column as it moves from the chamber area into the actual barrel....

Good Luck and Best Regards, Rockchucker

Edited October 8, 2006 by Rockchucker

[thefish]

All of the above much appreciated. Many things to try in resolving this matter. Thanks for the education.

[sargenv]

As an added to the pile of Benelli actions cycling the lighter shot weight at reduced velocity, I can honestly say I don't think so. We have a local competitor that was firing paper target shells through his Benelli and had nothing but ejection and feed problems with it. it could have been the fact that he was using paper shells, but I suspect that the loads were light target loads that just didn't have enough oomph to cycle his action. The 7/8 ounce loads loaded to a higher velocity will cycle the Browning Gold and the various Berettas but will not usually cycle a stock 1100/11-87 or I suspect the Benelli. The once ounce at 1290 (3 1/4 dram) shells seem to work about any action on the market. The 3-dram, 1 1/8 loads seem to work every action also. Now if you shoot a pump, the 7/8 ounce load travelling faster will feel lighter than the one ounce load at 1290. I've had a friend compare his factory one ounce loads to my 7/8 ounce Hi Vel loads and he felt a definite difference 'tween the lighter payload and the one ounce payload. He was able to aquire targets faster as a result.

The alliant manual has/had a listing for light and high velocity loads for 7/8 ounce ammo. The Hi Velocity stuff is actually for a 24 gram international target loading. It has 2 or 3 powders listed.. I think Red Dot, Green Dot and Select. Red dot being the highest pressure, and Select being the lowest. My initial reason for choosing the 7/8 ounce load was cheapness, I could get more ammo out of a 25# bag of shot without any difference to me of pattern density, but back then I was shooting an over/under and recoil played a part also. The lighter stuff meant I could shoot more without getting a headache. Cycle reliability only became an issue when I bought a Browning Gold. Imagine my happiness when I found that it would cycle the light stuff

I initially was looking for a softer shooting 1 1/8 ounce load since I was shooting a fair amount of trap at the time and I was experimenting with slow burning powder.. The puller got mad at me because I was shooting some boom-y ammo.. 30 gr of 540 with 1 1/8 ounces shot.. Um it made about 1200 fps and LOTS of unburned powder.. They told me to stop making that stuff since it was making for some really flashy fireballs out the muzzle of my 28" O/U. This was not really a published load as Winchester had it's loads listed at 32.5 of 540 with 1 1/8 ounces of shot making 1300 fps. 35 gr made 1400 fps, you can see where I thought 30 would make 1200 ish lol.

Vince

[Nick Weidhaas]

+1 on loading Clays with a 1oz load. AA hulls with Windjammer wads was my load of choice for years. Used in both Sporting Clays and FITASC. As mentoned above the weight of the gun will also effect felt recoil as will gun fit. It is real important to make sure sure your gun is fit correctly to you (for several reasons). An unfit gun can often cause face and shoulder pain. I experienced this myself early on shooting even light loads with a Beretta AL390. I ultimately fmoved up to a Krieghoff K80 and had the gun fit to me. The difference is recoil with the fit gun was amazing. The heavier weight of the K80 also had an effect as well. Also, don't forget about your mount. You need to make sure you are mounting the gun correctly (which will effect the gun fit). Where/how you mount the gun can also effect felt recoil. Good luck.

Nick-

Edited October 11, 2006 by Nick Weidhaas

[tightloop]

Sometimes you can out trick yourself...just find a powder that works all the time, is pretty clean and loads easily and forget about recoil..just my opinion.

[thefish]

All this talk really got me interested in trying a low recoil load. I made a box of 7/8 oz, #8 shot, with 15.4gr of 700X. I used Win 209 primers, Win AA12SL wads and the "new" type AA hulls. In the load manual it was given a predicted velocity of 1150fps.

To my amazement, my Benelli M1 Super 90 fired and cycled like the true soldier I had always known it to be. The expended shells didn't exactly fly 100yards out of the ejection port, but the gun had no problem with that load whatsoever. I put a IM choke on it and stood @the 16yd line. The recoil was negligible and I actually smacked clays. I can't exactly that say it dusted them, but it most definitely broke them. A real pleasure to shoot.

Once again, this has been a great learning experience and I think this will be the perfect load to use as I introduce my daughter to the wonderful world of clays.

Many thanks,

RIF

Edited October 13, 2006 by thefish

[sargenv]

Well good, that's nice to know. I remember some years ago someone loved to use 700x for their standard 3-1 1/8-9 skeet load. I tried it and it about took my shoulder off (I was firing the much lighter red dot loads at the time). I always thought that 700x made an economical powder choice but it was always a little too quick for my loads. I remember purchasing some AA target loads back when low-recoil ammo was new and even though it was rated 3 dram 1 1/8, it would not cycle my then Browning B-80. I think they were using the super-lite powder and it was not making pressure or was not giving enough powder for the gas system to work. As soon as I switched to Red Dot 3 dram reloads, it would work again. In that same vein, I think any of the fast burners like 700x, Titewad, Nitro 100, and even Bullseye generate enough oomph to push back actions to make them cycle even with light shot charges.

The main reason I use Red dot is because I still have a fair amount of it (8 pounds plus).

Vince

[thefish]

In that same vein, I think any of the fast burners like 700x, Titewad, Nitro 100, and even Bullseye generate enough oomph to push back actions to make them cycle even with light shot charges.

The main reason I use Red dot is because I still have a fair amount of it (8 pounds plus).

Vince

Along those same lines, of the powders you mentioned, or others, which do you think is consistently the most clean burning, and if so, is it by a large and/or noticable margin or more a subtle, subjective observation?

Tx,

RIF

[sargenv]

They are apparently all pretty good these days. I know that Red Dot and 700X were reformulated in recent years to be cleaner. Titewad was formulated to be one that used little powder and was pretty clean. Nitro 100 was/is a shotshell powder put out by Accurate arms and I believe it was formulated for clean burning. The Red Dot I'm currently using is from before all that and is probably 10-15 years old. There is apparently a Red Dot substitute called "Promo" put out by alliant, it is supposed to be the same burn rate as Red Dot but denser, that I'm interested in trying but have yet to get any. That too may be a good choice, but I've no experience besides what I've read.

Vince

[thefish]

The Red Dot I'm currently using is from before all that and is probably 10-15 years old.

Vince

A parallel question...when a powder is that old, it retains its potency? Assume that it has always been stored in optimal conditions re light, heat, moisture, etc. No concern regarding degradation?

If it does store well, do you have enough confidence in its properties that you would ever make a box of shells/ammo in which some rounds had the old Red Dot and others the new? Would you ever trust it for competition or only relegate it for practice, etc.

RIF

[coldchar]

A bit late but let me endorse clays powder, 7/8 oz load @ 1200 fps. Behind a semi-automatic shoot it all day and never have a sore shoulder.

Does require a good quality lead shot. Gives a good even pattern but not room for a bunch of flyers.

Use it for skeep, 16 yd trap, 5 stand, Sporting clays, doves, and quail.

[Tom Freeman]

Clays is all I use in 12 gauge, and in the 28 all I use is Longshot.

Have I mentioned I love my new Spolar? My Dillon SL900 was great, but this Spolar is just too cool.

[sargenv]

Yunnow.. Clays is pretty good for it's stated purpose.. though I tend to like Universal a bit more since it can be used for the 20. I did make up some nice Longshot 20 loads also. 20 gr of Longshot, 7/8 shot, 1300 fps.

And as for the Red Dot question, Apparently so long as it is stored correctly, Smokeless powder can last a very long time. Alliant (Was Hercules) Still has some smokeless left over from the late 1800's that every so often they take a little out to test to compare it to modern stuff. I still have some AL8 that was aquired in the 80's and at that time it had been obsolete for some years. I'd used some to load some 357 magnum ammo and it worked well for that. I have full confidence in the older powder so long as it looks and smells like any other modern powder. I have loaded it for competition in shotshell and Revolver loads. It simply works. I have some pre-plant explosion Blue Dot I received from a friend who no longer uses it. It still looks and smells like the stuff Alliant makes today but I can still use the older data with it.

Another powder in my collection is some Winchester HS 500.. this was the precursor to W 540 and is from the 70's. I haven't used it but I have a very old manual that lists data for it.

Vince

[thefish]

Clays is all I use in 12 gauge, and in the 28 all I use is Longshot.

Have I mentioned I love my new Spolar? My Dillon SL900 was great, but this Spolar is just too cool.

Have only been reloading for about a year and not yet heard of Spolar. I looked @their site, Yikes! That's a pretty serious piece of machinery. Am curious though...have just ordered/not rec'd Dillon SL900:

Did you have any problems w/it?

When working @consistent pace, about how many rounds/hr?

Any special tips/advice on avoiding probs/trblshootng, Dillon was helpful on phone, etc?

Did you ever use any conversions?...how painful was it?

Thanks,

RIF

Edited October 16, 2006 by thefish

[Tom Freeman]

I had really good luck with my Dillon. Literally took it out of the box and started loading ammo. I had no issues anywhere along the way. I think I loaded 20-25K of 12 and maybe 10K 28 gauge.

Loading 12 gauge I could easily just poke along at 600-700 per hour. The 28 was slower at 400-500 per hour. Picking up the wads and making sure they went in the hull properly took more time than just tossing a 12 gauge wad in there and going.

Tossing 15-18 gns of powder at a whack uses a lot more powder than I was used to. I add powder and hulls when I add primers.

Like *any* progressive shotshell reloader, the primer feeding system is the weak point. I took it apart and polished the tray to a mirrow finish and put some car wax on it. Then buffed it. It actually seemed to help. Get the machine cover to keep the dust out of the primer feed tray.

I never needed to call Dillon for help. Its an easy machine to understand and use. I have a couple 1050s and a 550, so I speak fluent Dillonese.

Changing gauges takes maybe 10 minutes, tops.

Just be sure to avoid squished hulls. They jam up in the drop tube from the casefeeder. If you shoot over and unders, you are golden. Hulls picked up off the IPSC stage get the once over before tossing in the casefeeder.

Sorry for the thread drift...