National Prize Distribution

[steel1212]

Speaking for myself (C Shooter),

I'd be more than happy with a Plaque, Trophy, or Belt Buckle.

Just SOMETHING to prove that I did, in fact, win that class, that day.

Thats all I would want.

Prizes for best finish down then maybe a 1st-3rd plaque or something for the classes. Hell you pay 200$ for match plus hotels and what not, put in the hours of practice at least you could get a 5$ plaque lol

[uscbigdawg]

After having been in this sport (on and off) for 10 years AND having lived with one of our sports GM's I'll say this about "sponsored shooters getting everything" and prize tables.

Other than a noted few, almost none of the top shooters are full-ride, full ticket, get a paycheck shooters. For most it's been a 20+ year commitment to a passion of their HOBBY of shooting. If they can pick up a $1k gun and then sell it for $7-800 to a guy coming up, that pays the rent bill this month or at least gets the next powder, bullet and brass order paid for. All the trophies that these men and women bust their butt for...you can't take those to the bank and get a loan. Those guys want money.

For today's up & coming and even top tier shooters, occasionally sponsors can hook you up with some parts, or a match fee, or a plane ticket, something and that is WAAAAY better than Robbie, Brian, Todd, Matt, et. al. had it when they were coming up. So don't buy into the hype of GM's getting what they have for free. The norm is that these guys have spent literally upper 10's to hundreds of thousands of their own money just getting to where they're at for a sport/hobby that they truly love. We won't even tally the expense of home life and those pressures.

As for prize distribution, I've seen it done about every way there is. The Golden Gate Championships, when it was still held, was known to have one of the better prize tables and as such shooters from all over came. The structure I recall was Top 3 in each class and then overall finish. Some matches it's Top shooter in each class and then overall. For most, it's overall. Understand this for those coming up if you don't know it already. If you win your class, you didn't win the match. For those that say that you'll never win the match, why do you play if you've already set yourself up for failure? Any shooter on any day has a chance. What is important though is that on the stage of a National, Area or Regional Championship match (i.e. theoretically a larger stage to test your skills when it counts) what should be your largest reward is that knowing what your abilities are, you shot the match as best as you could, regardless of finish.

In 1998, I shot my first Area match as a D Class Limited shooter. My goal was to have a clean match and if I won ANYTHING, great. For 8 out of the 10 stages, I was actually in the Top 40. Shooting a single stack 45, I'll take it. I was shooting clean and without hangin' it out, fast & efficient. However, the 2 stages that required a little something out of the ordinary from me, that were basic skills and I hadn't practiced enough killed me. I ended up something like in the Top 60 and 2nd D by less than 30 match points. If I wanted to look at it from a monetary standpoint, I "lost" out on the STI frame I would have picked up off the prize table. Instead I chose to look at like had I shot a similar percentage on those two stages as I did the other 8, then I would have been in the top 70+ percentile for my first national level match and in less than 2 years of shooting, to hell with the class win.

Tightloop echoes the biggest issue with the class system. It provides a vehicle for a self-fulfilling prophecy that someone is great. Understand this that there are more than a few times I've heard the bragging from a 1st C class shooter about the gun or frame that they picked up off the prize table because a match was structured that way and myslef who finished 30 places and about 30 percentage points ahead of him somehow was lower. Didn't bother me at all, 'cause I know how I did and don't need to value my existance by a trophy or an award. I take pride in shooting a good match and having fun.

At the end of 2006 I shot an Area level 3-Gun match and it was my first match since late summer of 2004 and other than a couple of club matches my first match since then (thanks Uncle Sam). I finished 7th in Open and about at the 50th percentile. I zeroed a rifle stage (D Class mistake) and in general was VERY slow and choppy. In doing the math had I shot 1-2 stags a little cleaner, spent a little more time getting prepared, I could have easily been in the top 4, but more importantly in the 80 percentile. Most important, I would have felt better about my performance. The big gain for that weekend was meeting some great new friends, catching up with some old friends that I hadn't seen forever and was just able to get away from Bragg for a little while and feel like myself again.

If you want to shoot for the money, you're in the wrong sport. USPSA won't be what it can be without a lot of major changes that unfortunately a lot of ego won't allow to happen. Further, until the firearms industry starts fully embracing the shooting sports and like other sports promote the person and not the gun, it will never have a chance to reach mainstream. When was the last time you picked up Sports Illustrated and they were discussing the new highspeed basketball shoe on the cover. Every other sport has an identity with its atheletes. The heroes of other sports are Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Dale Earnhardt Jr., Roger Federrer/Venus Williams and Barry Bonds. Yeah it doesn't cost much (or any) money to play basketball or baseball. Try playin' golf, tennis or driving a race car on the cheap. You can do it, but YOU WILL NOT reach the top levels.

So, either accept the fact that USPSA is one of the few bodies of IPSC that acknowledges classes to begin with and that you get what you get, keep practicing and try to get better or accept the fact that just 'cause you show up doesn't mean you're going to get a gun. Mediocrity does not warrant reward.

Rich

[Jaxshooter]

All we need to do is have one Division and no classes. At most maybe Open, Limited and Revolver with no classes and an order of finish trip to the prize table.

In today's society we would loose alot of shooters.

[Carmoney]

For today's up & coming and even top tier shooters, occasionally sponsors can hook you up with some parts, or a match fee, or a plane ticket, something and that is WAAAAY better than Robbie, Brian, Todd, Matt, et. al. had it when they were coming up.

No way, Rich. Back in the golden age of competition shooting (early-'80s through the early-'90s) there were entire teams of sponsored shooters, in full uniform, who were competing for big prizes (Jeeps, Rolex watches, tables full of prize guns) and plenty of cash.

With matches like Second Chance, The Masters, Sportsman's Team Challenge, Bianchi, etc. at their zenith, competitive shooting was far more lucrative back then.

Edited March 2, 2007 by Carmoney

[Chuck Anderson]

Rich is right...did I just say that? Rob, Brian, Todd and the rest created that market for sponsors. They didn't just fall into it. When they were coming up (not when they had arrived) there were no sponsorships. The beginning of this sport is only some 30 odd years ago. Sponsors did not just spring forth and start doling out money. The early years I'm sure were leaner than the period you describe.

Yes there was a golden age for sponsors. But that is way gone. The current fact is shooters have a really hard time keeping up by selling prizes from matches. What does the top shooter at Nationals get now? A full blown open gun like they used to even five years ago? Nope. Best they're gonna hope for is something in the 7-800 range. And that is on the high side. I've seen Nationals where the top prize was a Springfield Mil-Spec. Not that it isn't a great gun, but it ain't gonna pay the bills either.

Right now count up the number of shooters that are fully sponsored. I mean that's all they do. Just shoot. There are none. (Well maybe Eric Graufel but let's keep it in the US) All of them have some other job that they do to pay the bills. Whether it's working in marketing for a gun company like Dave Sevigny or doing contract training like Robbie and Mike and Todd.

And besides that, there aren't even that many that are sponsored to a point where they should be called that. Most of them have product sponsors that give them some occasional stuff or a gun now and then. But there just aren't that many that pay all the match fees and travel and room and board. The top down is the only way that these guys can afford to keep going.

Yeah the B, C, and D class supports this table. But most GM's started as B, C, and D class shooters themselves. If you want that top prize, win your class and walk the table at the top.

[Singlestack Wonder]

Prize tables.................Hmmm............

Since USPSA receives the bulk of it's income from lower classed shooters (compare the number of M's and GM's to the number of B and C shooters) who due to life's requirements (family, job, etc) shoot for a hobby and don't have the means or time to practice full time and or buy advanced training classes from "Pro" shooters, the prizes should be awarded based on class finishes (i.e. 1st GM, 1st M, 1st A, 1st B, 1st C, and 1st D then on to 2nd in each class).

Granted, the 2% at the top of the game may be disgruntled as they feel that since they do have time and resources to attain the skill they have that they deserve better.

But in looking at the overall dues paying membership, the Joe in B class that trains as best as they can and who wins B class should get 4th pick at the table.

Actually, IDPA has it right, trophy matches only......random prize drawings, and everyone leaving happy having particpated in an event with like minded people and having a lot of fun......

This train has left the station.............................

[novafla]

I might be missing the point here, but prize table vs, recognition are two different things.

The vast majority of us are recreational shooters, with little expectation. ability and/or ambition to become GMs or Ms in thie sport. We look at it as fun, fellowship and an activity that we can continue with into our later years.

Yes, we strive to improve, get better, but need to be realistic about our time challenges, work and family schedules as well as what life's priorities are. Shooting fits somewhere in between those things.

Personally, I love the sport, shoot IDPA and USPSA every chance I get. I always look to improve myself and pay attention to skill development. But there is a limit. At 63 years old, I can only improve to a point and recognize that I have deminishing skills. The clock is ticking and I can only do this for a few more years, so I measure myself again my age group and skill level. ( Production 'C' and SS in IDPA)

I look at skill levels of other shooters and know I can never compete with the Ms/GMs and also see the new 30's yo 'C/D' shooters that I beat handly today, but they will blow past me next year because of their age and energy.

So what have I got to look forward to? ...Recognition within my Class/Category

Hang the prize table. I finish at 50% in my Division and get a 1911 slide spring (I don't own a 1911) and a Montano Gold hat so I give them away. No problem. But boy oh boy, you bet I want that 'High Super Senior-Production' plaque. That's the winner for me.

After spending $125 for the match, $200 for 3 nites in the hotel, $300 for airfare/travel, $150 for food and drinks, $25 for ammo, $X on my accessories and other crap...

Well that $15 plaque makes up for all of that.

So you guys can have my 91st overall prize, give the GMs their winnings, but remember that the OVERWHELMING majority of the membership are just plain old guys like you and I.

Give us the 1st, 2nd and 3rd 'C/D' awards. Rewarding that mediocrity makes us as good as anybody in the match and brings us back again and again. It's our participation that supports the sport, funds the purses and buys the products.

[Wakal]

Hmm...sounds reasonable. Trophies as current practice, prize table by strict order of finish.

How easy was that?

Alex

[novafla]

Hmm...sounds reasonable. Trophies as current practice, prize table by strict order of finish.

How easy was that?

Alex

BRILLIANT

[fastshooter03]

I skipped a few pages cuz I don't have time to read everything so someone might have already said this.

In WI last year the two major matches(Sectionals and Area 5) were trophy and maybe cash to the winners with a random prize table. Random because some of the SPONSORS asked for it or they wouldn't donate.

I just go by the saying"better lucky than good". I take what I can get cuz I have no say in the matter. If I don't like the way something is run, I won't go to/do it. It's an expensive sport to say the least.

Fastshooter03

[Chuck Anderson]

After coordinating sponsors for a few matches I found that there is at least as many sponsors that won't donate to a random match, as ones that will not donate to a top down table.

[Ben Stoeger]

After finally reading this whole thread, I think I would be happy to see prize tables go away. It isn't worth this amount of bs so i can sit in a crowded room for an hour and go home with a hat.

Instead of spending days soliciting sponsors.. design and build another stage to shoot.

[Loves2Shoot]

I agree 1000% with Rich and Chuck.

I was D Class shooter for awhile and now some days I'm better than that. Those who say that shooters won't come to the matches if they can't win a trinket don't get it.

MOST people I know go to matches because of the quality of the match. Those who think that sponsored shooters have it "made" have absolutely no clue. Their is very little money out there to be made by shooting.

Going to a match for the chance of winning a 300-600 top prizes has very little value for the better shooters.

[Shawn Knight]

Hey? There are prizes in this sport? Forgive a lowly B-class shooter in the land of perpetual night time.

[uscbigdawg]

Rich is right...did I just say that?

Love you too Chuck!

The point is, as others have stated, if you're in this sport for prizes, then you're in the wrong sport...period.

If you think that the top shooters didn't earn it through a ton of hard work, you are dead wrong (and again in a lot of cases at the expense/loss of time and money from families, divorces and other personal hardships).

If you think that just because you are part of the majority of CURRENTLY classified shooters at a match that it somehow entitles you to a better prize, you are completely incorrect (you may be part of the masses, but remember many of the sponsors, as companies wouldn't exist if not for the forefathers of IPSC and atheletes like our top shooters AND they once were new too).

IPSC/USPSA in particular is the most difficult and challenging of all the shooting sports. I gauge my wins and losses not by what place I finish in a match or what I took home off the prize table. My success and reward is measured by the quality of shooting that I did that weekend. I've lost matches shooting at my absolute best and I've won matches shooting horribly.

The point being that in this and in everything you do, if individual success and achievement is not enough, then you will never be truly satisfied at anything you do in life.

Rich

[Flyin40]

Rich is right...did I just say that?

Love you too Chuck!

The point is, as others have stated, if you're in this sport for prizes, then you're in the wrong sport...period.

If you think that the top shooters didn't earn it through a ton of hard work, you are dead wrong (and again in a lot of cases at the expense/loss of time and money from families, divorces and other personal hardships).

If you think that just because you are part of the majority of CURRENTLY classified shooters at a match that it somehow entitles you to a better prize, you are completely incorrect (you may be part of the masses, but remember many of the sponsors, as companies wouldn't exist if not for the forefathers of IPSC and atheletes like our top shooters AND they once were new too).

IPSC/USPSA in particular is the most difficult and challenging of all the shooting sports. I gauge my wins and losses not by what place I finish in a match or what I took home off the prize table. My success and reward is measured by the quality of shooting that I did that weekend. I've lost matches shooting at my absolute best and I've won matches shooting horribly.

The point being that in this and in everything you do, if individual success and achievement is not enough, then you will never be truly satisfied at anything you do in life.

Rich

+1, great post. I just don't get how someone thinks they should get a prize or something instead of a top finisher when they have put in only about 5% or alittle more of the work of those top guys. If you have family, don't have the resources and can't shoot that is your own personal issues, you chose not to do it or put in the work to be able to do it and shouldn't expect to get a free pass to the prize table because of it. Life just doesn't work that way, let alone shooting.

There are plenty of guys out there that figure out how to do it with a family and with a limited buget. If you really want to can do it, let me rephrase that, if you really want to you will. It takes alot of effort to figure out how to juggle shooting with a wife, 2 kids, going to the gym and working 60-70hrs a week. What most guys don't realize is you don't have to spend 3hrs a day dryfire and practicing. Even if you only pick up the gun for 15mins a day it helps out. You don't have to spend a ton of money on ammo, you can shoot with a 22. You just have to learn to make anytime with a gun quality time since time can be limited. Same with the family. Another thing I realized is the amount of time I spend reading this forum. As addicting as this forum is and the amount of knowledge that is available for those on limited time it can hurt alittle. How many times have you looked at the clock and spent 2-3hrs on this forum. I know I have. This yr I have limited myself because if I want to get better I have to use that time to practice or get to the gym.

Flyin40

Edited March 4, 2007 by Flyin40

[Micah]

Rich is right...did I just say that?

Love you too Chuck!

The point is, as others have stated, if you're in this sport for prizes, then you're in the wrong sport...period.

If you think that the top shooters didn't earn it through a ton of hard work, you are dead wrong (and again in a lot of cases at the expense/loss of time and money from families, divorces and other personal hardships).

If you think that just because you are part of the majority of CURRENTLY classified shooters at a match that it somehow entitles you to a better prize, you are completely incorrect (you may be part of the masses, but remember many of the sponsors, as companies wouldn't exist if not for the forefathers of IPSC and atheletes like our top shooters AND they once were new too).

IPSC/USPSA in particular is the most difficult and challenging of all the shooting sports. I gauge my wins and losses not by what place I finish in a match or what I took home off the prize table. My success and reward is measured by the quality of shooting that I did that weekend. I've lost matches shooting at my absolute best and I've won matches shooting horribly.

The point being that in this and in everything you do, if individual success and achievement is not enough, then you will never be truly satisfied at anything you do in life.

Rich

Truly without finding a personal pay value in this sport, there is no joy in competition. Spot on post Rich