National Prize Distribution

[JFD]

I don't care myself except I hate the random draw concept. I want to win a gun or used primers based on my performance, not the luck of the draw.

I think order of finish is the way to go, but there will always be discord about this when amateurs are competing against sponsored shooters. My thinking is that sponsored shooters HAD to be nearly at the top through major talent and probably major sacrifice to get sponsored in the first place, so I'm going to get trounced anyway. My limited experience tells me that sponsored shooters increase attendance at matches; which makes for a better match; which means my match experience will be better. I will admit that I've never turned down a class prize though.

Winning $150 as the state L-10 champion when I actually finished 7th was a very hollow victory. I simply lived in the correct state. More misery than pride in that "win".

In a perfect world without sandbaggers I could maybe see equal prizes for class wins(maybe....I think....sort of....). This is how club matches work in golf, and of course the sandbaggers come out in force to win more cash than most any shooter will ever see. I was never a sandbagger, but we did have an unintentional sandbagger in our foursome who helped to win us a ton of cash if we could manage his alcohol intake perfectly.

[Sean Gaines]

I call the prizes "cracker jack toys" because if I were to win a frame or slide or whatever, its less than the amount of effort, time and money that has already been spent to get to the level that I am at. dont get me wrong, getting cracker jack toys are nice, but its not the main reason to go to major matches. As far as the 1st c not getting the better pics of the toys, well I think they have already figured that one out. I don't think they are trying to re-invent the wheel. You finish higher than everyone else than you get a better pick at the prize table. Pretty simple.

I think we forget sometimes the reason we got into the sport in the first place. FOR FUN! I think going to nationals, world shoot or going to major matches, is for the experiece, excitement and for the love of the sport. When you take a trip to Europe for vacation, you don't go there to expect some material item, you go there for the experience and the thrills.

just my .02 cents

PK

[Precision40]

I think we forget sometimes the reason we got into the sport in the first place. FOR FUN! I think going to nationals, world shoot or going to major matches, is for the experiece, excitement and for the love of the sport. When you take a trip to Europe for vacation, you don't go there to expect some material item, you go there for the experience and the thrills.

That's a great point. I don't understand why some folks expect things to be given to them. If you want a frame or a bag or a gift certificate, then go buy it, it's cheaper than going to the natl's. If you come to the nationals just to get free stuff, then your going for the wrong reason. You come to the nationals to shoot. Your cheaper off staying home and buying what you want through the mail.

If someone beats you in a match regardless of class, then they should go before you period.

[Chico]

The West Coast Dual Championships in San Luis Obispo last June awarded guns to each class winner in Single Stack and Production, from GM all the way to D. Then random drawings for visits to the prize table for the remaining items were held.

Still, consider Major League Baseball paying the top position players in AAA, then AA, then A, then instructional league more than the number two in the major leagues. Doesn't sound right because it would not be right.

[Airedale]

These threads pop up every few months.

I have the solution.

HOA gets the prize table-period. All the gun certificates, bags, shock buffs, etc.

If you are not HOA, you didn't practice and work hard enough etc.

Get Fedex or UPS as a sponsor. Their only committment is to ship all the "booty" home for the HOA.

Simple enough, eh?

Dave

[Guest 38superman]

At Nationals two years ago there was a seperate prize table for each division.

Those that placed in the top three in each class GM - D went first.

After that it was order of finish.

I thought that was a fair and equitable way of prize distribution.

When you ask "Why even bother to have a class system?" you might be surprised that there are a lot of people that think we shouldn't.

They consider it pandering to members that don't yet or no longer have the skills to compete at the highest levels.

To the victors go the spoils and everyone else can pound sand.

That seems a little condescending to me but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I personally think that achievement happens at many levels and should be recognized.

Our sponsors are generous and there are enough prizes to reward that achievment.

One thing is certain, any way you do it someone's going to have a problem with it.

For my part, I just try to enjoy the whole experience and don't worry about prizes.

If I win something decent, fine.

If not, I've never seen anything on a prize table I couldn't afford to buy if I really wanted it.

If you're looking for fame, prizes and glory, take up golf.

If your're here for the satisfaction of working hard and competing well against the best in the shooting world you came to the right place.

Edited September 21, 2006 by 38superman

[tightloop]

dgsmith

Not to be tacky, but Life is Tough...My granddad used to tell me when I was a little boy...If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen..

[Carmoney]

I can tell you that dgsmith is not speaking for himself, as the issues he is talking about really did not occur in his division at Nationals. But I remember exactly where he was standing during the prize distribution, and he had a unique vantage point to observe the whole situation.

Some matches richly reward class winners. The last two years, Area 3 has ensured that a gun is awarded in every class in every division, as long as there were at least three entrants. It was truly awesome to see that much loot paid out, and it was largely due to CZ-USA's generous sponsorship.

I tend to be in the "order of finish" camp myself, but I understand there are different (but still reasonable) viewpoints on this. My 13-year-old son has received a couple very nice prizes this year when he has won C class in his division, and that has been very encouraging for him.

Once again, if the prize distribution policy is stated up front, and followed to a "T", there really should be no complaint from a shooter who chooses to sign up and play the game.

[boo radley]

Have you ever considered that winning your class is nothing more than a statistical accident?

No dog in this hunt, except to point out you're right...until the match begins. At that point, it's 50 "B" shooters against one another, etc. Winning one's class then become beating 49 other shooters, regardless of the statistics that created the "B" classification in the first place.

Anyway you distrubute prizes is fine by me, just understand that your opinion on the matter likely depends on your place in the food chain.

That's a big +1.

[Carmoney]

I want to win a gun or used primers based on my performance, not the luck of the draw.

Just caught this and couldn't help but laugh......used primers, huh??

[Pete Goloski]

I usually don't post replies to topics in this forum, but I have had a bit of experience in this area and it might add some insight to the mix. Several years ago, we hosted some major tournaments in upstate NY that used the following prize structure. We did not ask sponsors to "donate" prizes, but rather we told them that we wanted six equal prizes and that we had $X00.00 to spend on them. When you offered to buy merchandise, the sponsors were much more willing to work with you to provide the best six pieces of merchandise you could get. Then, at the award ceremony, the Match Winner got a really fine prize package. 1st M,A,B,C,D and U all got the same prize (Usually a top line gun). (Back in those days there was no GM class and at first there was no Limited--just shooters). The same was true for 2nd, 3rd, 4th in class. We awarded 1 prize for each 5 shooters in each class, so if we had 15 Masters, we awarded 3 prizes. If we had 60 C Class shooters, we went to 12th place. Usually those who placed 1st-5th in class won guns/frame kits and there were no small prizes. We also gave generous prizes to top Lady, Senior, etc. Every shooter received a nice shooters bag at registration and in it were t-shirts, hats, beer mugs, drink tickets and lots of other goodies. This system was kind of unique at the time and it was a neat way to "spread the wealth" around to all the shooters while still awarding performance. It made a lot of people happy, but there were some real problems with it too.

The first time I had a Master class shooter come to me as MD and say, "I came in 6th overall and shot 94% of (Todd, Jerry, Rob) and got nothing. The 3rd place D class shooter came in at 254th overall with a 47% and went home with a $400 gun. Is that fair or right?" I had no good answer for him. It wasn't fair and it wasn't right.

The system also nurtured a very severe sandbagging problem. We had shooters who sandbagged the classification system to get a C or D card and then, never shot USPSA matches unless they were big prize tournaments. They would show up, shoot in D class, take 1st D, win a valuable prize, and then you would never see them again until next year.

As the years went by, one of the lessons I learned was that top shooters don't get to the top by accident. The road to the top is paved with sweat, sacrifice and dedication. If I had been born to Mr. and Mrs. Woods and was given all that Tiger was given, I would not be where Tiger is today because I don't have the willingness to give what it takes to get there. Every top shooter is a self made man or woman. I came to the conclusion that a shooter who comes in 9th or 10th in his class, and ended up better than half way down the overall list deserves encouragement and nurturing and to be told that if he wants to win a nice prize, go home and practice more -- and better.

I believe that Classes should be awarded no more that 3 deep and that those prizes should be substantial. I believe in rewarded performance. If you want to win by chance, go buy a Lottery Ticket. Trophy only matches should never cost more that $75 to enter unless they are charity events. I realize that I have a vested interest in it, but I also believe in awarding categories such as hi Jr., Sr., Lady, LE, etc. I always have--long before Julie came on the scene.

It has been many years since I shot a National Championship Match, but based on what I hear about the prize distribution, I think the folks at USPSA do a pretty good job of it.

[mike cyrwus]

Simple solution: bust your ass to win first in your class. I won C class and I picked 20th overall from the L10 table, right behind Julie Goloski (who certainly didnt get a gun).

I got a nice prize, a great momento from my first Nats.

I wonder how hard you tried to win your class. Regardless of shooting schedule; I was studying stages until sunset and playing commando around the Motel room, practicing reloads and walking on make-believe platforms.

The class you're in is a current assesment of your performance capabilities; not a genetic phenotype.

[Jim Norman]

There is another thread that referes to catching/stopping sandbagging. It is relevent to this discussion. If we are to award class winners, we should be sure that class winners are really in their class.

Require three valsid classifications to be submitted each calendar year or the shooter reverts to a 'U' until he submits said classifiers. Use the highest 6-10 scores submitted as the classification percentage, have only one classification, if you are an 'M' in Open, you are an 'M' in everything and so on.

Now you can truly reward a class winner since he is likely to be in his class, not a near Master in L-10 with a B Limited card. This would go a long way towards stopping sandbagging.

As to how the awards were presented at this LimNat. The tables were fair, the logistics could have been a bit better, maybe posting the lists in a few places and calling out both numbers and names would have helped. It was very difficult to hear in the center.

Jim

[moverfive]

I hope everyone really reads these threads and try to 'listen' from all angles. A lot of good points and opinions - from both the low to mid-level classed shooters to the upper level shooters. Depending on where you are personally, your opinion is probably biased.

But Carmoney said it the absolutely best - vote with your dollars and your presence. If you don't like the way a match is done, don't go. And better yet, tell the hosts of the match WHY. If enough people don't go and tell them politely why they aren't going - their format will probably change.

But the bottom is this - are we really in this for a prize table? As I have said before, the prize table does make a difference for many matches and I think people who win (whatever it is they win) should be appropriately rewarded. But I shoot some matches even though I hate the prize table format - the Mississippi match for example. I have won HOA at the MS Match two years in a row and haven't walked away with much in any year. It costs me a LOT more to shoot that match than what I have received. But I shoot the match because I like the people and the match in general and will continue to shoot that match. While some may be unhappy with their prizes, they need to ask themselves - why are they shooting matches in the first place.

This issue with the prize table and rewarding performance within a class will never be fully resolved until we become a fully sponsored event - meaning we are getting enough sponsorship dollars and don't require a match fee in order to hold the event. Since that isn't happening anytime soon - we just need to be cognizant of where the bulk of the money is coming, why an event is successful, and then cater to those reasons. And depending on the audience and the match, those reasons could vary dramatically.

[dgsmith]

Did I try to win my class. You betcha I did. I also tried to best anyone in the classes above me. Somtimes I did, somtimes I flamed out and that caused me to finish where I did. Am I there for the prizes? NO!! I have spent an incredible amount of money and time this year in the pursuit to get better. But during my year of shooting this year I have talked to a lot of new people that I have never met before around the country and heard a lot of them tell me that Nationals is a sham and they would never be back. Being my first one since joining in 1988 I will be back. But I still agree with some of them on how somethings should change.I think all the Nationals should be joined together into one so that it is more economical and to show unity as an organization and so there is no dilution of the prize table. I believe the donations from the dealers or manafactures have gone down because they also are tired of the shooters who are the ones to best buy their items are not recieving the product. Those B,C,D.U shooters are just getting everything together. That is where the money is , not the Master and GM who only get the prize to sell it.

Also unless you get rid of the classes then prizes should be awarded accordingly. If I ever get to that envious position of being in top ten and anyone of you hear me complain that those below me should not get a pick before me even though they won their class , please remind me of this thread and I promise I will quit USPSA on the spot.

I began this thread for the good of the sport overall and for the lower class guys who are tired of the upper class guys who forgot where they started from. If you invited the top 300 guys in the nation to this event I doubt hardly anyone whould show. It is the lower class guys who support this sport..

Thanks for your input.

DVC

Edited September 21, 2006 by dgsmith

[tightloop]

dgsmith

The answer to your quandry is something that IPSC used to do before the split and formation of USPSA...

There were no national classes, everyone shot heads up...Yes, you heard that correctly..when I went to the Natl's in 1979 as a lowly C class club shooter, I shot heads up against Mickey Fowler, Ross Seyfried, Raul Walters, Mike Dalton, Mike Fichman, Ron Learch...did I win...NOPE...did I care...NOPE...

Robes on ascending into the pulpit: This is not a sport for the timid or the weak of heart...you come into this thing and you are going to get thumped for a year minimum, probably more..Now if you can't handle that then you need to take up tiddly winks or something less stressful...the guys at the top got there the same way, from the bottom, working hard, practicing more hours, shooting more rounds, learning more technique, than anyone else..that is the way it is done...you can't bluff your way to the top, can't buy gear that will put you there, it just takes thousands of hours of dry fire, practice, and matches, over a relatively long time..Sure we have some lower class shooters that quit 'cause they can't just step in and win..but the majority of shooters who tough it out the first year continue to shoot and progress up the class ladder....some faster than others due to money, family, job and any number of other distractions..but they stay because they realize that is what it takes to progress and win..

The other answer to your plight is to stop the prize table completely..I am for that 100%....as I said in a prior post, this was never supposed to be a prize sport anyway..

So your job, should you decide to accept it, is to do the best you can, hard as you can for as long as you can and enjoy the view when you get to the top, or you can become disenchanted and quit..Your choice...

Descending Pulpit steps, robe off:

I am not trying to be argumentative, it is just the facts of this sport and every other sport, you have to work your way to the top...some make it faster than others, some NEVER make it, but most enjoy the attempt and the journey..

[Thomas Moore]

i guess there really isn't a fair way to distribute prizes but unfortuately prizes bring in shooters. why do you think Area 2 sold out in less than one day? Area 2 has possibly the best prize table in the country. i bet if you took all the prizes away from Area 2 it wouldn't sell out in one day.

so the only thing to do is get ride of all the prizes, drop the entry fee and just give out plaques. i'm sure manny would like the business

i look at the prize table as a bonus. if i finish top in my class i will recieve a plaque telling me so. going up to the prize table is just a bonus, if you look at it that way you won't get pissed.

what about lewis class for prizes

[Jake Di Vita]

Man you have a pretty bad opinion of higher classed shooters don't you.

Apparently to you...all we do is get to the prize table to sell the product...practice all day and night on someone else's dime (which is how we got good) AND have forgotten where we came from and ignore lower class shooters.

For someone who has been around since 1988 you sure have a really screwed up view of how the top level shooters in this sport are.

What you are saying has that same socialist attitude of not keeping score for kid's sporting games. Everyone can't win...sorry. There is a winner and a loser....if you don't like losing you can either quit or get better....not complain about not going to the prize table before someone that beat you. Class awards are for incentive...period...you get a trophy. If you aren't in it for the cash that should be enough right?

You keep saying that it is the lower class guys that make the sport....that is true for one reason. There are more of them. I've heard countless shooters say they don't like weak hand or strong hand stages....does that mean we should stop using them to appease the "lower" class shooters? Of course not.

Bottom line....if you don't like what you are getting...practice.

Don't tell me you don't have the time or money because I'm living it. I haven't shot a live fire round in practice in about a year because I'm broke.

I guess what Nietzsche said was true...."The higher you soar - the smaller you appear to those who cannot fly."

[SteveZ]

I got a better idea....get rid of prize tables entirely and make everything plaques/trophys! Doing this will get rid of the "mercenary factor". Prize tables based on random draw have their problems (example TT winning at Area 1 and having his name called near the bottom), prize tables based on class promotes sandbagging...and prize tables based on OA finish disregards the entire class system all together. So dump the prize table and remember why we got involved in IPSC to begin with.

How many here decided to start shooting IPSC because there was a prize table and they could potentially win something from it.......a show of hands please?

[Cameron]

First time I have read someone reffering to "subpar GM's"

Double blind drawing, simple.

[Bear23]

The only fair ways are to:

1. Random drawing.

or

2. Order of Finish

I personally hate getting a prize table organized and i think its wrong for the sport... It sets up that gimmee, I want it attitude...

A trophy match is fine for me, all i care about is how well or how poorly i shot the match. I was at the Nats, the actual prize distrubution had me a bit confused...I felt like an Angus being herded up some mysterious stairs.

[toowide]

i like separate prize tables or just trophy match.

[BigDave]

Forget prize tables for a second, actually just forget they exist.

Why do we award 1st GM, 2nd GM, 1st B, 2nd B, etc.? Because you only shoot against those people in the same class in your division and for HOA. If you are a B class shooter in Limited, the only people you should be concerned with are the other B class Limited shooters. It isn't like if you finish 1st A and happen to finish ahead of 20 of the 50 Masters at the match that you'll also be 31st M, too. But that's what some people seem to think.

If you want a prize table in order of finish, do it for the top 16 or 20 or 25 or whatever you want. Then, seperate prize tables for each class in order of finish. Each prize table is funded by the number of entries in that class. If there are more A's than M's - guess what they have a bigger prize table. Then, I'm sure, there are people who would gripe at that, too.

Screw it - random drawing!

And, the next time I hear a M or GM pontificate that they deserve more because they worked harder I'm going to flip my lid. There are pleanty of rank and file shooters who, in their own way, work their butts off to be where they are in this sport - and that might just be C class and that's as good as it will ever get for them. And, yes, there are many shooters who don't practice and aren't utilizing their potential, but I'm not talking about them. GREAT for you if working your tail off led you to GM and the [insert name of title here], but don't lift yourself up at the expense of someone else who's own hard work didn't exactly pay off the same way as yours did.

[Gregory_k]

Order of Finish, not class order.

[Bigbadaboom]

This was my first Nationals I have attended. I was appalled at the distribution of prizes Saturday night. How does a GM that finishes 10 places down from the 1st place GM get a good prize when a B class or C class shooter that just beat fifty or sixty of his fellow B or C class shooters gets hardly nothing. Why does it not go in order of match winner, 1st GM, 1st M, 1st A and so forth down thru D and start over with 2nd place finishers then 3rd and so on till every one picks. Why does all the lower class shooters pay for the good prizes a subpar GM gets who finishes at the bottom. Mind you I was not that top B class. I would have picked after that 10th place GM. But at least it would be fair. We might as well eliminate the class system if this is the way we award class winners.

This horse died a long time ago and now we are just standing over the ground where it decomposed smacking it with sticks.

The USPSA classification system is nothing more than "Feel good legislation". It allows mediocre performers to feel like they have accomplished something in order to keep the drive for membership numbers up in the sport. I don't believe that mediocre performance should be rewarded and winning 1st B at the nationals is absolutly mediocre, unless you only have one arm.

How in the world is order of finish more fair than by class order?

How in the hell is it fair for some weekend B class shooter who might dry-fire a couple of hours a week to get to the prize table prior to the 10th place GM who puts in several hours a day after and before they go to their regular job to get where they are?

You're right!! get rid of the classification system and only classify for a % of the top shooter in your chosen division/divisions only for the purpose of monitoring the progress of hard work.

I keep hearing/reading this stuff about how it's the D,C,B etc. shooters that make up this sport as if they should be bowed to. Well, the GM's are the ones that set the phucking bar for those of us with the drive to attempt to achieve that GM status.

If I came in 1st B and came in 53rd overall and I got to go to the prize table before the GM that placed 10 overall in the field that they had at the Nationals it would make me sick.

Rewards in life are set by the accomplishments we make through how hard we work not by what class we chose to maintain.

OH!! By the way. I'm a B class shooter striving for my GM.