Faster To Shoot To Slidelock Or Reload W/retention?

[Brazos SC Shooter]

Yes, you have to be behind cover when reloading.

From Appendix Three - Cover "All reloads must be executed from cover (if cover is available) and must be completed before leaving cover."

Jerry,

I understand all reloads must be behind cover. Which is why I include the comments regarding if the cover was sufficient for engagement then it should be sufficient for reloading.

What this doesn't address is shooting on the move, in the open. In that case if I went to slide lock with bad guys I still needed to engage, I doubt I would really take the time to find cover before loading my weapon. If IDPA is about "real" defensive situations then I don't know how this would be a penalty.

Drew

Edited August 3, 2006 by Texas HK shooter

[Crusher]

Unfourtunetly you are at the mercy of both stage designers AND RO's who try (for the most part) to adhere to the IDPA rulebook with regard to allowed proceedures in both stage design and RO admistration of the rules.

Should either one (Stage designer or RO) be off center so will the call. Best to ASK during the stage walk through.

[steel1212]

Stage has you sitting on a bench and has you jump up and run to a barrel and shoot 4 targets. Then, go from there and walk/run to a line shooting 4 more targets at the same time. If I only have 8+1, I shoot the first 4 targets move from cover to engage the final 4 and of course as I'm moving and fire my first shot I go to slide lock. In this situation I can just drop the mag insert another and keep going correct?

If the CoF requires you to engage each target with at least two rounds, it's poor stage design. I'm guessing that the stage designer wanted to force a TR/RWR here, and as so often happens, doesn't know that revolvers can't shoot eight rounds without reloading. The concept is that you wouldn't leave cover with only one round in the gun. You're required to reload behind cover if it's available, and it's available here. Besides, you'd probably save time doing the TR/RWR over the slide lock in this case.

During the walk through, MAKE the SO clarify whether you can reload while moving from P1 to P2. Don't be hard on the guy/gal, since SOs usually aren't the ones who designed the stage, just make sure you get a "yes" or "no".

I just threw that out there off the top of my head. If you shot to slide lock though and you reload, behind cover, you don't have to stow the mag right?

[revchuck]

If you shot to slide lock though and you reload, behind cover, you don't have to stow the mag right?

Right. Dump the mag, reload, and keep on truckin'. Basic rule is: Slide lock, dump mag; slide forward, retain mag. Addendum to the basic rule: Malfunction clearance, dump mag; if slide doesn't lock back when gun is empty due to design, modification or bad juju, dump mag.

[steel1212]

If you shot to slide lock though and you reload, behind cover, you don't have to stow the mag right?

Right. Dump the mag, reload, and keep on truckin'. Basic rule is: Slide lock, dump mag; slide forward, retain mag. Addendum to the basic rule: Malfunction clearance, dump mag; if slide doesn't lock back when gun is empty due to design, modification or bad juju, dump mag.

Your supposted to retain the mag on slide lock? I was under the impression that you didn't have to retain if you shoot to empty.

[ArnisAndyz]

If you shot to slide lock though and you reload, behind cover, you don't have to stow the mag right?

Right. Dump the mag, reload, and keep on truckin'. Basic rule is: Slide lock, dump mag; slide forward, retain mag. Addendum to the basic rule: Malfunction clearance, dump mag; if slide doesn't lock back when gun is empty due to design, modification or bad juju, dump mag.

Your supposted to retain the mag on slide lock? I was under the impression that you didn't have to retain if you shoot to empty.

To clarify what revchuck posted...

Basic Rule

Slide Lock = dump it

Slide Forward (one still in the chamber but mag empty) = retain it

Edited August 3, 2006 by ArnisAndyz

[steel1212]

If you shot to slide lock though and you reload, behind cover, you don't have to stow the mag right?

Right. Dump the mag, reload, and keep on truckin'. Basic rule is: Slide lock, dump mag; slide forward, retain mag. Addendum to the basic rule: Malfunction clearance, dump mag; if slide doesn't lock back when gun is empty due to design, modification or bad juju, dump mag.

Your supposted to retain the mag on slide lock? I was under the impression that you didn't have to retain if you shoot to empty.

To clarify what revchuck posted...

Basic Rule

Slide Lock = dump it

Slide Forward (one still in the chamber but mag empty) = retain it

10-4

[Chills1994]

RAEMIG (pronounced ram-ig in the North, in the South it is pronounced ray-mig) LOL

Retaining

An

Empty

Mag

Is

Gay

LOL

So if you are designing courses, it would be nice if you made them so that they were six shot revolver friendly i.e. 2, 2, and 2, duck behind cover, reload your wheel gun, engage, or MBQ, MBQ, cover, reload, engage.

The next best option for designing CoF's is to shoot to slide lock, to not force the shooters to do a TR or a RWR on the clock. Of course different guns fire a different number of rounds in order to get to slide lock, it could be 11 or it could be 8 (or less).

I always do get a chuckle out of a 12 round CoF. You are forcing everyone to do a mag change at some point. For the 11 round started guns, that means you have to reload just to fire one more round. That's why I always get a chuckle out of it. Heck, just make it a 14 round or 16 round stage. IDPA max is 18.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Chills1994

[Punkin Chunker]

It is IDPA philosophy that you cannot do that under fire so it isn't "tactical" and is not allowed. No matter what Jeff Cooper said.

I kind of agree with "IDPA Philosophy." Maybe someone out there can count rounds under stress, but I've seen Masters shooting L-10 lose count in USPSA matches, so I can believe that the stress of a real-life encounter would kind of blow your round counting out the window.

I think it's pretty obvious that if you're round counting, then you already know COF. Again, not very realistic if the idea is "tactical" approach. The ideal, to me, would be that shooters do NOT see (or get to hear about) the COF before they hit LAMR. And there would be no scripted, "shoot here, move there, squat here." Just, "You are here, you need to get there, there will be bad guys on the way. Face downrange, Load and make ready."

I can't speak for the rules writers, but it seems that most of the RWR, TRL, and cover rules are attempts to artificially create through rules what would likely happen on the street.

Given that, I would really like to see a rule that if you have rounds available, it's a PE not to recharge your weapon at the end of the COF.

[COF]

What this doesn't address is shooting on the move, in the open. In that case if I went to slide lock with bad guys I still needed to engage, I doubt I would really take the time to find cover before loading my weapon. If IDPA is about "real" defensive situations then I don't know how this would be a penalty.

Running out of bullets while engaging targets in the open means several things could be screwed up.

1. If the COF requires you to engage multiple targets before moving to cover, it's P*ss Poor stage design.

2. If the COF calls for you to engage targets after leaving cover and they were visible from cover - see No# 1 above. Why would you move from cover to engage targets if you can engage from cover. Would you do that if someone was shooting at you

3. If the COF calls for you to engage while moving to cover and you run out, you aren't moving fast enough.

4. If the targets aren't visible when you leave the first point of cover, but become visible before reaching the next cover and you run out of bullets, you aren't moving fast enough or using the cover that was hiding the targets.

In any of these cases, I would engage all targets with one round each while moving to cover and reengage from cover. If the COF doesn't allow this, see #1.

As a rule, if you're leaving cover, reload before you leave cover.

Jerry

[RickB]

Sometimes, there's not enough time to set up every stage so that it can be shot without instruction, either in the form of the scenario (Bad Guy one takes a shot at you, THEN Bad Guy 2 shows up . . .), or in the form of the course description (Engage T from cover, then engage T2 and T3 on-the-move . . .). It could take an hour to set up vision barriers that force the shooter to do the same thing as a few words. Nobody would leave cover with only one round in the gun, either in a game or on the street, if they knew there were three threats immediately ahead, would they? That's why I could never understand "running dry in the open"; if there are three targets that must be engaged in the open, then you'd better make sure you have at least six rounds in your gun when you leave cover. The rules say you can't leave cover with an empty gun, but a shooter who's read the course description knows how and where rounds will be needed, and it's his responsibility to reload as necessary.

At our club, we try to make all stages eight rounds or fewer, or twelve rounds or more, so that either all the auto pistol divisions must reload, or none of them do. While we never intentionally do things that make it impossible for revos (such as eight-round arrays with no cover), we don't let the tail wag the dog, either. Our monthly club matches draw 50-60 shooters, and often times there are only one or two revo shooters.

[Punkin Chunker]

I absolutely agree with everything you've said. In a Perfect World (could this be a Walgreen's ad -- self-pasting targets, HUGE A-zones, etc?) every club could shoot down a Hogan's Alley set-up, or an Urban Warfare Training Center configuration. But it ain't a perfect world, there are too few people helping to set up stages, there are limited resources, and targets can't just pop in and out like the bad guys. So we deal with it through artificialities. Like course descriptions that orchestrate the approach to a CoF, rather than let you simply run and gun. Or rules that impede reload strategies. In the real world, it's not always possible to be behind cover, and know you have 3 BG facing you, but thanks to the course description you know that, and can plan for it.

I just figure that since I benefit from the artificiality of knowing where the BG will be (most of the times), I don't complain too much about the artificiality of hanging onto a mag once in a while.

[Duane Thomas]

Hint: remove the empty mag first and then retrieve your fresh mag, insert the fresh mag (empty still in hand), then stow the empty as you run like the wind to the next array.

Interesting, I've never even thought of that one. I'd think though that, for me anyway, juggling two magazines in one hand while coming back up and inserting the fresh mag would impact dexterity enough to offset the time saved by not stowing the old mag to start with. But then, I've put a fair amount of work into making my RWR movement, down to the pocket, then back up and scoop the fresh mag as my hand passes the mag pouch, one movement. Also, I always found stowing the old mag while moving, back when I did a lot of tac-loads, even if it didn't slow down my running, occupied my mind when I needed to be focusing on the next array. So even if it didn't cost me any apparent time, it cost me in attention. If I have to do a mag switch instead of an emergency load, it just seems, for me, to work much better to get it over with, then move. YMMV.

If shooting to slide lock and reloading do you have to be behind cover?

Yes, but in IDPA "behind cover" is defined as 100 percent of your lower body behind the barricade, no more than 50 percent of your upper body exposed. It's perfectly legal to reload while leaning out to maintin/acquire a visual on the next target to be engaged.

[Duane Thomas]

The above rulebook reference deals with the change about no longer having to duck back fully behind cover to perform a reload. Under the LGB, you had to be completely behind cover.

Actually, that's not true. You were always allowed to expose 50 percent of your upper body during the reload. It's just the LGB was poorly laid out in that in one place it said "You must use cover while reloading." And in a completely different location, pages away, it specified that "use of cover" meant 100 percent lower/50 percent upper body behind cover. Many people just never put the two facts together.

I always thought the Tactical Reload was too difficult for the average shooter until I learned a technique this spring. It was one of those "DUH" moments. With this technique, it makes it simple even with short fingers and double stack mags.

1. Pull the magazine out with the index along the front of the mag, thumb on one side and middle finger on the other - just like any reload.

2. When you bring the magazine forward, slide the index finger to the side with the thumb.

3. Use the thumb and forefinger to pull the mag out of the gun, rotate slightly and seat the fresh mag.

4. Stow the used mag while you're moving to the next shooting position.

I know a lot of folks probably use this technique already, but it had never dawned on me on how easy the Tac Reload really is.

That's the way I've done the tac-load for years. Originally I was taught the Taylor Tactical Reload where you wind up with the old magazine between the little and ring fingers, which is a horribly uncertain method of holding it, leads to many dropped magazines, and is in general a total loser. The method you've described is much superior. That said, it'll never be as fast or fumbleproof as an emergency reload or RWR.

1. If the COF requires you to engage multiple targets before moving to cover, it's P*ss Poor stage design.

I can see the benefit of stages that simulate being caught in the open and engaging targets on the way to cover. What I hate are stages that require you to stand flatfooted in the open and engage targets before moving to cover. The usual justification for this is "to make it easier for new shooters who might not know how to shoot on the move." Okay, I understand this is a game, it's not real combat. But do we really want stages that force people to do something that's suicidally stupid - like stand in one place and engage when good cover is only a few steps away - when we could allow them to do something immensely more smart - engage the enemy while swiftly moving to cover? The choice seems pretty clear to me. Is being able to engage the enemy while moving to cover a useful skill for the defensively minded shooter to have? You bet it is. And if you don't know how to shoot while moving, well here's your motivation to learn, dude.