Fast Draws

[Steve Anderson]

That's my take on it. Every time I see him do it, there's no beep and the time is on the screen, plus he sets up for a good long time, and the target is a huge plate at prox. 12-15 feet.

I will gladly admit if I'm wrong, but the evidence points in my direction, counselor.

All you really have to do is get the barrel out of the holster, rock the grip back and fire. should remove .4 from anyone's draw if you start with the hand just off the gun. That puts most of us at .5, even with some reaction time. I'll test it soon and let you know. You could also start the timer on your left pocket with your left hand and then start the draw if you just wanna see the .6 on the timer. You probly won't hit anything, the broad side of the barn excluded.

SA

[Flexmoney]

Might be shooting blanks too.  That takes some of the worry off of blowing a hole in your foot.

[Larrys1911]

Down0

Look me up, I will be CSO on some stage!

Flex - I think they use Wax bullets - same reason!

[Flexmoney]

wax bullets...now that is truely gamey!

[Ron Ankeny]

I don't suppose a fast draw is all that important if you want to make Master by competing in major matches. Then again, if you are going to make Master by shooting classifiers, a "reasonably" fast draw  is essential.

[PaulW]

I believe as you move up in class ALL of he small details become important.  As you begin the draw and reload times are less of an issue.  But as you start your climb in class you have to know how to do everything well.  And with the classifier system being what it is, mostly stand and shoots, it makes draws, reloads, strong hand and weak hand important.

[Steve Anderson]

I tested my theory today.

Started with timer button pressed with left hand(mine beeps on the release) and the right hand very near the gun.

Release the button, start the draw, shoot w/ both hands 1 A at 3 yards in .52 seconds. That was just screwing around, could be made even faster by shooting from hip one handed.

SA

[mcoliver]

...and that ain't no wax bullets.

[Flexmoney]

Well...I would never say anything... (I'm a gamer)...but some of Steve's regular squad mates might say his bullets are close to wax.    

Seriously...thanks for posting on the experiment Steve.

[Steve Anderson]

I need to back 'em off a little, I made 133 in Penn and 131 at Ohio state.

SA

[Steve Moneypenny]

did some playing, normal full draws, from production rig regularly under 1.1 seconds. then at 3 yards about a .5 strong hand only (timer clip broke) starting with hand on gun.

from the hip i could do them in .3-.35, total speed draw, was scary as not used to the gun going off there.

[mcoliver]

Also did some draws yesterday. 9 yards, 1.4-1.7sec (ok don't laugh..)  So I thought "crap! what the heck I'll do more dry fires at home and try to beat my timer."  So on I went (no more timer) doing draws, 2 shots then 2 shots to another target about 4 yards from the first (edge to edge.)  while packing-up to leave i checked the timer and lo and behold 1.21sec! And that's 2 shots!  Heeey, maybe there's really more to this don't think, just shoot stuff.

[kellyn]

One year at the desert classic, Rob and Brian gave some FREE classes (very generous by the way!!)  Brian talked about stage strategy and Rob ran the students thru drills.  I witnessed Rob doing .50 -.55 draws at 10 yards with his open gun but he missed about half the time.  He "slowed down" to .60 - .65 at hit every one.  

[Mistral404]

I am a C shooter pushing on towards B.  Last Friday, I started timing my draws and first shot.  My conclusion is that I raised the bar that you all can exceed.  Meaning my first couple of draws were 2.4-2.2 second range.  Paused a moment, relaxed the shoulders and settled into 1.6 - 1.8 range.  About draw 15, I could do a 1.4 to 1.57 pretty easily.  

As what has been said on this forum a gillion times, relaxed and smooth is faster!!.

Next I proceed to do two shots.  The overall time was in the 1.8 - 2.3 range.  I was really trying to get my second shot to be in the same area as the first.

This practice consisted of hands at the sides and random start buzz.  I felt it really helped me improve my consistentcy.  

I appreciate y'all putting your times in because it give me a reference point to aspire to.  Although I do not foresee .6 draw and shoot in anything but my dreams.

My practice drill now consists of; thirty one round draw and shoot, thirty - forty draw and shoot twice drills, twenty draw shoot once reload, shoot once reload, shoot once reload, and twenty shoot twice reload, shoot twice.

I am still inconsistent in my qualifiers, I will shoot a 60+% then a mid 50% to a 20%.  Yep 20%-I had a major brain fart that day.  I installed an oversize mag release and did not practice with it prior to the match.  Resting your thumb on the mag release instead of the safety is the fastest way I know of dropping a mag during a qualifier!!!  

[Ron Ankeny]

Mistral404:

Here's my ten cents worth but consider the source, I am not a GM shooter. Getting that first shot off quickly is very important, especially in classifiers and speed shoots. As the hit factors go down, such as on a long field course or a course with tight shots, the need for a really fast draw diminishes.

I can stand in my living room with a one second par time and beat the clock in dry fire all day long. On the range, at close yardage (3-5 yards) sub-one second draws are a piece of cake. Move the target out to 10 yards and my par time runs around 1.3 seconds. To reliably hit an eight inch plate at 10 yards takes me 1.4 to 1.5 seconds. These are practice times.

I am on the verge of Limited Master. I shoot at small clubs and the RO is always some one I know and they have been real good about allowing me to review the timer. I began reviewing run times last summer and it has been enlightening.

In matches, my draw is almost always slower than in practice. When I begin to shoot, I like to have a sight picture, grip, etc. that will allow me to sustain a fairly rapid rate of fire throughout the entire array. If I draw too fast I make visual errors and I build too much tension. It is hard for me to go wide open on the first target and be relaxed when it comes time to transition to the second target. I haven't found the neutral ground between seeing what I need to see (nothing more) and overaiming.

I have shot a lot of A class classifiers with a draw time between 1.6 and 1.8 seconds. My best stand and deliver speed shoot classifiers have draws between 1.2 and 1.4 seconds. I managed a 97% on Mob Job with a 1.65 draw. That classifier has a reload, soft cover, hard cover, no-shoots, and steel so my guess is target transitions is the key. I shot the Mini-Mart at 100% but the draw was from under a counter so the holster was taken out of the equation. Last month I shot Both Sides Now in under 5 seconds with the majority of time being the draw and reload. The draw was a pathetic 1.7 seconds.

I know the importance of a quick first shot because guys who beat me at speed shoots do it with the draw. Bonedaddy has a par time of .85 seconds and he thumps me good. He rarely takes more than a second on anything out to 10 yards. Still, at any given match, I manage to routinely beat people who have a faster draw than mine because they don't shoot the targets in an efficient order, or their transition times are just poor.

I think new shooters waste a lot of resources in the form of time, mental anguish, ammuntion, and so on in search of the sub-one second draw. By all means, practice that first shot, over and over, it is an essential skill. But don't neglect the other fundamentals like sight alignment, trigger control, calling the shot,  movement, etc. because they are much more important for D, C, B, and even A class shooters than is the one second draw.

As a side note, a friend of mine who has been RO a lot told me that he has been keeping track of reload times for the various classes of shooters. He is convinced that the reload is more important than the draw at the C class level. The average time for a C class shooter to reload and go from one side of a barricade to the other is in excess of 4 seconds. The average C class reload in the open is over 3 seconds. An A class shooter takes half that much time. That's food for thought.

[Flexmoney]

I agree 100% with Ron.

And that reload thing...I stand and count...one-thousnad-one...one-thousand-two...one-thousand-three...and so on, while people reload.  It is suprising how much time folks waste there.

[Mistral404]

Ron,

Thanks for the insight.  After hearing that, I am more confortable with my draw times.  During dry fire and range practice sessions, I try and do a bunch of fire and reload, fire and reload drills.  It does seem to help.

Right now I am noticing that my scores are high but my time is 3-4 seconds slower, thus my hit factor is lower than those that are faster.  I will start working on the speed again in a month or so.  

I really want to get a solid foundation on draws, reloads and double A before I start pushing the limits again.

BTW, this has got to be the best forum out there.  Matt's is pretty good also but it does not get near the volume of participation.  

[dirtypool40]

I know this thread has been inactive for a bit, but we got to talking about it at the range, so here I am.

I used to "snatch" the gun, from a ghost holster, just grab it on the way past.  So long as you are ready to JUMP on the beep it's easy to be fast, but took a lot of practice to approach anything that could be called safe or accuarate.

I got full target draws at 10y from hands relaxed down under .90. I hit a .86 in a match.  Problem was if I didn't really keep practicing it, it would scare the hell out of me!!  (And about a third of the time you end up looking like an idiot, juggling you gun at eye level).

Now I "stop at the gun"; much safer, and a get a good grip about 90% of the time.  Has the added advantage of being good practice for a "concealed" or IDPA type holster, and confidence that you will not perforate your big toe.  If I have put in a little time, I can rely on anything from .95 to 1.25 depending on how well I jump on the beep.  Apples to apples we are still talking about a full target at about 10y.

On a good day a buddy hit a series from an unconcealed Wilson practical on 10" plates at 10y, at around a second.  Best was a .96.  He was really on though and averages about a 1.25, which I figure is pretty fast out of a non-IPSC type holster.

Guys, it's only one shot!! Watch TGO, Strader and a lot of the big boys, they stop at the gun and are much safer.

As to all time fastest?  I personally witnessed two "low ready" first shots from a shot gun at a 3-gun match.  Both were on small poppers at 10 y, both were first shot hits.  One was .48 the other .41

Sounded like he shot AT the beep.

[MattBurkett]

"What is really sad is that the guy isn't smart enough to realize that Matt B. could start hand-cuffed behind the back and still out-draw him. To bad the thread was closed. " I don't know about that, but, I would sure try!

The draw is an important part of any stage and important in the match. If the draw goes well, it seems to set up the rest of the stage for smoothness. Now in practice, I can get some rocking draws. Did a cold .57 in a class two weeks ago. Will that happen in a match? No, I doubt it. Here is some of the reasoning behind it. For some reason when there is more than one shot, there is a mental tendency to slow down.

Do this as a test: Set up a target at 7 yards. Get your par time for 10 draws and find your average A hit draw. Now add a target and draw one shot on T1 then one shot on T2. Bet your draw slows by an average of .25 of a second.

You will also find that in a match, the draws slow down significantly. I think that part of the reasoning is that your not just focused on the draw, but, the rest of the stage too. I can draw in a .68 from my Comp-Tac.com holster unconcealed. My average under match conditions is usually .90-1.00 of a second.

Here is the importance of the draw at the Nationals last year. There were 20 stages. If you are .20 slower than someone else on the draw, by the end of the match, you have lost 4 seconds or in an average 10 hit factor match, 40 points!

_________

"BTW, this has got to be the best forum out there.  Matt's is pretty good also but it does not get near the volume of participation. "

Well, you guys could help out over there too!

Take care,

[Mistral404]

I have been practicing dry firing and on steel. As I said before, when shooting steel the draws were in the 1.5 second neighborhood.

I have shoot a couple of matches where the draw has been in the 1.1-1.3 range with an A hit. It really shocked me. The RO commented that I had some really fast draws and we looked at the clock.

It blew me away. I am not sure why they were faster but they were. My overall scores for those stages were quite good for me.

I am slowly putting things together. Faster draws, faster reloads, and now faster recovery times. The one thing I really like about shooting Limited 10 is that it really makes you think about your reloads and lots of them every stage.

[Larrys1911]

Wow,

Talk about a blast from the past.

This is an OLD thread.

Hey Matt, et al,

So what do you do to improve your match draw times and second shot times?

I noticed that while doing other drills and comparing my 1 shot draw times to the first shot of those other drills.

I have Finally done a sub 1 second CONCEALED draw at 7yds.......

with a GLOCK no less. If I could jsut do it consistently when it COUNTS!

Larry P

[gmshtr]

I took a Glock Instructor Workshop here at the Capitol Police range, and managed two shots (two handed) from my Safariland Roll-top Duty holster in .86 with a first shot of .62....of course that was only from 3 or so yards. The instructor said that the fastest he had seen was from Jethro "The Jet" Dionosio from a Blade tech with a total time of .63 - first shot .47! WOW!!

I've found that the more relaxed you are before the timer, the faster you'll be. I have the bad habit of twitching before the buzzer, which costs me an average of .05 to .15 seconds on the draw!

Be the Draw, Danny. NANANANANANANANANANA.

Phil Strader

www.shootersparadise.com

[Sterling White]

Hey Rodney,

Does this mean your gonna give Dave S a run with Glock Power?

Nice job at summer blast!

[gmshtr]

Thanks! Summer Blast was a great match, again. I don't I'll ever be ready for Dave with any gun. He's the man. It's a good thing he wasn't there. He would've smoked me!

Phil

[Paladin]

I have been as fast as .7s at 7 yds. Hits are not consistent. When slowed down to .8s hits became consistent. Once there are more than one target I noticed a drastic slowing down on the draw however-this is because IMO we are thinking ahead. Only recently shot some steel and my draw was 2.4s. My splits were great however.

It would be interesting for Brian to comment on how his draw time deteriorates if any when shooting multiple targets since he applies the mental aspects well!!