Vihta Vuori N105 Vs. Imr 4756?

[PistolPete]

I have a Brazos open gun coming in the next week or so and have his recommended loads for the 4.5" open gun. There are two loads, one with N105 and one with IMR 4756. Up until now I've been shooting a 5" Infinity with Schueman AET bull barrel using V.V. N320. I've tried some other loads in the gun but the V.V. N320 seems to shoot the best to my likings. I've tried Titegroup but again the N320 seems to shoot softer even though it is twice as expensive.

Now, for the open gun I'm going to be starting with the N105 as I already bought a few pounds of it to start off with. I'm thinking of trying the IMR powder. I like the fact that it is less than 1/2 the price of the N105 but have never used the IMR powders. I saw another post on here stating the IMR is reverse temp. sensative and can be inconsistant. If this is true the savings may not be worth it.

Please let me know your experiences with both powders and which you prefer and for what reasons. Is the N105 a softer shooting powder than the IMR or are they pretty equal? I want to place a large powder order soon and don't want to make a mistake. I'll prob. pick up a small amount of the IMR to test and see if I like it.

ps. One other question... Can the N105 be purchased in larger amounts than the 1lb. containers? If so who sells them?

Thanks in advance,

Pete

Edited June 17, 2006 by PistolPete

[Sandro]

Pete,

I am shooting N105 and I like it. I also tried 4756 before and it seems a pain to load, but I heard that is what TJ shoots, so probably it is a good powder. If Bob recommended 4756 to you I think you should try. The best thing for you to do is to try different loads, start low and work it up. There is no question N105 is one of the best powders out there, but it takes lots of to make major. I have a large amount of N105, but my favorite load is with 3N38. I can give you my contact for N105 if you would like, but don't buy too much before you try the best load at least for month.

When you get your gun; Find a load that makes major, then shoot it for a month before buying a large amount of powder.

If you have any questions, I will be happy to help.

Sandro

Edited June 17, 2006 by Sandro

[PistolPete]

I would def. like to know your contact for V.V. powder. I will still be using the N320 in my limited gun even if I don't go with the N105. How different is the 3N38 than the N105? Are the burn rates similiar? Why do you prefer that over the N105? I'm open to trying different powders but Bob recommended these 2 so this is where I'll start. I figured what I would do is use up all the N105 that I have but when I start getting low I'll buy some of the IMR powder and maybe even the 3N38 as well. I'll see my initial results and if I like it then I'll order a few pounds and do what you recommend about shooting it for a month. Then I can compare before making a larger order.

Thanks for your help.

Pete

[Sandro]

I would def. like to know your contact for V.V. powder. I will still be using the N320 in my limited gun even if I don't go with the N105. How different is the 3N38 than the N105? Are the burn rates similiar? Why do you prefer that over the N105? I'm open to trying different powders but Bob recommended these 2 so this is where I'll start. I figured what I would do is use up all the N105 that I have but when I start getting low I'll buy some of the IMR powder and maybe even the 3N38 as well. I'll see my initial results and if I like it then I'll order a few pounds and do what you recommend about shooting it for a month. Then I can compare before making a larger order.

Thanks for your help.

Pete

I will send you a PM.

The 3n38 burns faster compare to N105, the N105 is flatter but "for me" with more kick. I like soft loads, 3N38 and 125gr bullet is the best load I found so far for 38 super. I can track the dot very well.

Make sure you experiment with it before you buying towns of powder. I hope it helps...

Sandro

[RacerX1166]

I just got my new Pro Sx as well and have tried both N105 and 4756. I think I like the N105 better as it seems flatter at similar pf's. I'll admit to not spending a ton of time on development but kind of going by seat of pants if you will.

I got both N105 and 4756 from Henry Swartout at a reasonable price.

http://swartout.com

[XRe]

In my gun - which is a bit different from the one you'll be getting - I found N105 to be very clean. At Major, my gun liked N105 much better - 4756 both flipped and hit the palm more. In fact, it was the worst in that way of the six powders I tried. I ended up w/ 3N38 after playing around with them, and am planning to switch to 7625, which was second best, but a lot cleaner in my gun with my load than 3N38 appears to be - it also tracks a lot straighter, as it turns out.

I totally agree with Sandro that you should try things out and see what works best in your gun before buying in bulk. The IMR powders have been noted to be inconsistent between lots - but not generally within the same can. There have been wide variances between lots in the past. The way past that is to buy 16+ pounds at the same time, which will last you for some 15K rounds or so. You only have to rework your load after that - and that's really true of all powders, even VV (any time you change lots you really need to chrono...).

Definitely start with Bob's recommendations. You might also experiment with 3N38 and N350 (both are faster than N105, but (apparently) slower than 4756) - they each have a slightly different feel. Some people like 3N37, too. Some feel it's getting too fast for Super-ish cartridges, but 7625 might be worth a whirl, too, if you want soft, and can stand a slight amount more flip.

One thing I really liked about N105, though, is that it's basically impossible to blow a gun up w/ it. It's so linear, likes being compressed a bunch, and shows basically no pressure signs at all, even with the case basically full of powder. I'd be really comfortable loading with it - just wish it wasn't so darn expensive...

[scooterj]

I tried both N105 ans 4756 in my Pro SX. Settled on 7625. Much easier to load because it is more dense and it is very consistant at all temp ranges in south Louisiana.

[TonyT]

I tried both N105 ans 4756 in my Pro SX. Settled on 7625. Much easier to load because it is more dense and it is very consistant at all temp ranges in south Louisiana.

I like loading 5.6 to 5.8 gr. of SR-4756 behind the 124 gr. rainier bullet. Very clean burning.

[mleeber]

Just tried to load some N105 in some supercomp brass. How the heck are you guys getting more than 9.5gr in the case? 9.5gr is compressed and I can't seat my 125gr Zero JHP far enought to get under 1.255".

Thanks!

[Newbie]

I tried both N105 ans 4756 in my Pro SX. Settled on 7625. Much easier to load because it is more dense and it is very consistant at all temp ranges in south Louisiana.

Scooter, what bullet, weight and amount of powder do you use for the ProSX in 7625 and is it the 5 inch or 4.5 inch Brazos that you have?

[XRe]

How the heck are you guys getting more than 9.5gr in the case? 9.5gr is compressed and I can't seat my 125gr Zero JHP far enought to get under 1.255".

Just crunch it right on down in there. Don't worry about it being compressed. I loaded up to 10.3 and was still able to get the bullet to seat to 1.250" (125gr HAP).

[scooterj]

I tried both N105 ans 4756 in my Pro SX. Settled on 7625. Much easier to load because it is more dense and it is very consistant at all temp ranges in south Louisiana.

Scooter, what bullet, weight and amount of powder do you use for the ProSX in 7625 and is it the 5 inch or 4.5 inch Brazos that you have?

Newbie, I'm loading 7.7gr 7625 behind 124gr Montana Gold JHP and barrel length is 4.5"

[Brazos Custom]

I do not recommend 7625 in a Pro SX it is too fast and runs too much pressure. Enough to cause damage to your gun. (Stay away from N350 too)

Edited June 24, 2006 by Brazos Custom

[Jaxshooter]

I have had serious pressure problems with 7625 in my SV IMM in 38 SC and my STI Stinger in 38 super. I have also found it varies a great deal depending on the temp. I currently use 3n38 in both guns without a problem. I use 10.4 gr 3n38 with a 125 gr JHP Zero bullet, 1.260 AOL in the SV 38 SC. 169-170 PF depending on temp.

Edited June 24, 2006 by Jaxshooter

[XRe]

I have had serious pressure problems with 7625 in my SV IMM in 38 SC and my STI Stinger in 38 super.

This doesn't really surprise me - nor does it surprise me that Bob doesn't recommend it in his short gun, either. Folks (apparently) had real interesting pressure issues making old Major w/ 5" guns and 7625 - with short barrels or barrels with ports up close to the chamber, you're having to get at similar initial pressures to get the bullet out of the barrel fast enough.

Interesting that you note to look out for N350 in your short guns, Bob. That was always a safe powder at old Major for 5" guns - not disagreeing with you at all, just an interesting observation to me. How are you w/ 3N38?? Obviously, faster things like 3N37, etc, would be right out, too, correct?

[PistolPete]

I have another question regarding the differences between these two powders. Besides the lot differences and temp. sensitivity how do the rounds differ at the same power factor as far as shootability goes. So far I've noticed with the N105 that my dot barely even lifts at all. The round has a decent snap in my hands but shoots very flat which I like because I can make extremely quick follow-up shots. Is the IMR 4756 similiar or does the dot rise a lot more? I wonder which one would allow for faster follow ups. If I'm faster with the N105 I will stick with it even if it's twice the price.

Thanks in advance,

Pete

[RacerX1166]

Again, still playing, but I've found in my Pro Sx that, at similar power factors, the N105 is snappier but flatter and more controllable. The 4756 feels like the recoil is spread out over a longer period of time and is not as flat and controllable. My dot will lift to the top of the glass if I don't grip it like a limited gun with the N105. It rises about the same with the 4756 no matter what I do.

Will continue to play and advise.

I have another question regarding the differences between these two powders. Besides the lot differences and temp. sensitivity how do the rounds differ at the same power factor as far as shootability goes. So far I've noticed with the N105 that my dot barely even lifts at all. The round has a decent snap in my hands but shoots very flat which I like because I can make extremely quick follow-up shots. Is the IMR 4756 similiar or does the dot rise a lot more? I wonder which one would allow for faster follow ups. If I'm faster with the N105 I will stick with it even if it's twice the price.

Thanks in advance,

Pete

[PistolPete]

UPDATE:

Well, I picked up 8lbs. of the 4756. I loaded some up and chronoed them to see where the P.F. would be. Got it to 170 and loaded a few hundred up to test today. My follow up shots are much slower with the 4756 than with the N105. I noticed that the 4756 lifts the dot much higher then seems to dip back down and back up again. This was making my follow-up shots much more difficult. I was having to track the dot and press the trigger as the dot was passing my target. This isn't he case for me with the N105. With the N105 I simply take the first shot and the dot is right there. The round might be a bit snappier in the web of my hand but my follow ups are much faster. Looks like I have 8lbs. of 4756 to waste.

Would it even be worth practicing with? I don't want this to mess up my timing. I shoot by watching the dot but I always try to practice and compete with the same variables. I'm guess that since I'm so new to the open game I'll be Ok whichever I decide. I may just buy more N105 and use the IMR as a backup powder if I run out?

What are your thoughts?

Pete

[XRe]

Someone might want to purchase it, too... You've used less than half a pound - knock some dough off the top and see if someone local to you uses 4756...

And buy smaller quantities for load development, next time

Alternately, it might be that your timing on the gun isn't working with the powder. You might load up a couple hundred more, and do some timing drills, etc, and get used to the recoil signature, and see if that doesn't help. 4756 is a buttload cheaper than N105, so there's some appeal to running it....

[al503]

Or you might load up an additional .1 or.2 of the 4756 and see if the extra gas helps with the dot lift. I've never tried 105 but 171-173 seems to be the sweet spot with 4756 in my brazos in 38 supercomp. I get a little dot lift at 169 and below and it gets snappy past 175.

This is kinda hard to maintain as 4756 varies a lot with the outside temperature. During the winter, 8.8 got me about 170 and currently, it's taking 9.2 to get me about 171ish. (powder is all from the same lot.) I try to keep my pf right around 171.

Edited July 10, 2006 by al503

[PistolPete]

Maybe that is the ticket to getting this powder to work its magic. I might as well experiment with it and see what I can come up with. In the meantime I'll order up some more N105. Maybe I can find a good load to use up the rest of the 4756 and then just go back to the N105. I hate to spend twice the money on powder unless I absolutely have to but it is looking like I do. Although, it's really only been 1 session with this powder. I'll load more up and use it for a week or two straight and have more to compare to then.

Pete

[turbocomp38s]

I'm using 4756 on my Limcat (dragoncat) with tribrid barrel and loading at 9.0-9.1 grains with PF of 172 to 174. I like it because the dot hardly moves and a softer powder compared to the 350VV. Cheaper, good quality powder and clean to shoot. I would follow Brazos' advice on your gun. He is right about that not being violent and will extend the life of your gun.

[shred]

Use up that 4756 on steel and minor loads if you can't think of anything else. 6.8 or so and a 115 or 125 is nice and soft.

[Harmon]

just shoot it, after a while you will get used to it.

If i was still a 38 super man, 4756 is a tough powder to beat...damn shame you cant get enough in a 9mm case to make major.

harmon

[lcs]

Ok guys a little help needed, I just got a lb of 4756 to develop a major load for my first open gun which is 9MM. The gun will have a 5" barrel with a thread on comp.

Harmon quote "If i was still a 38 super man, 4756 is a tough powder to beat...damn shame you cant get enough in a 9mm case to make major."

Does everyone else agree you can not make 9MM major with 4756 with a 125gn Zero JHP with a OAL of 1.125? I have read 4756 has temp variations, but I thought it would make major.

Thanks