Uspsa Production Gun List

[j2fast]

I searched first so hopefully this isn't a repost or old news but did anyone notice the the Prod Gun List page now lists criteria for a gun to be approved??

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/production_list.php

There are steps and criteria for a handgun to be accepted to the Production gun list.

1. 2000 made within a year Available to the general public for a year

2. No magwell attachments or external flaring of the magwell, the lateral internal width of the well may not be more than 1/4" wider than the lateral width of the magazine. The lateral width of the well to mean the narrow width where the mainspring housing is inserted, the lateral width of the magazine to mean the narrow side that faces the mainspring housing when inserted into the handgun.

3. Must meet the criteria listed in the appendix of the current rule book as well as that listed above.

4. The gun must be viewed by NROI prior to its acceptance.

5. A production gun approval form filled out and signed and returned to NROI.

Not that it is good or bad I just don't remember seeing that on there before. The good is that at least it's listed/defined in black and white so to speak.

[Vlad]

The 2000 thing is back on? Woot!!!

[RIIID]

With this it puts the S&W M&P, CZ Shadow, and XD .45acp on hold till 2007. What else came out new this year?

Rich

[raz-0]

I don't mind the 2000 thing. I think the available for one year is a bit much though. It kind of says no matter how serious a manufacturer is about a gun (example the M&P or XD), don't bother thinking about USPSA shooters when launching a product.

It's probably to prevent something like the SP-01 or the beretta PX-4 where you can say hey we built a ton for thsi one contract, but you can't get your hands on them yet unless you are a special person. (I suspect we'll see similar situations with the new army contract contenders/winners) I just have this gut feeling there has to be a way to do this and still play nicely with manufacturers who are acting in good faith and putting large volumes of a product out on store shelves.

Edited May 24, 2006 by raz-0

[caps]

With this it puts the S&W M&P, CZ Shadow, and XD .45acp on hold till 2007. What else came out new this year?

Rich

This is weird coz the M&P and the XD are on the IPSC list http://www.ipsc.org/proddiv.php and they say the Shadow is "under evaluation". I thought the USPSA list was the same as the IPSC list with a few USPSA additions but now it looks like there are many differences.

I was thinking about getting one of the new Taurus 24/7 guns, but they are only approved by IPSC not USPSA. What gives?

[JakeMartens]

OK so maybe I am confused (yes it happens more often than not)

but is it that 2000 have to be made within a year from when it is available to the public.

Or it has to be available for at least one year to the public and have to at least 2000 made within that year.

Because if it is the latter of the two then that means that even if the first production run on a new released firearm is 2000 plus, we could not use it for at least 1 year.

So the M&P will not be legal for another 8 months?

[Nik Habicht]

OK so maybe I am confused (yes it happens more often than not)

but is it that 2000 have to be made within a year from when it is available to the public.

Or it has to be available for at least one year to the public and have to at least 2000 made within that year.

Because if it is the latter of the two then that means that even if the first production run on a new released firearm is 2000 plus, we could not use it for at least 1 year.

So the M&P will not be legal for another 8 months?

That's kind of the theory ---- you must produce 2000 units and they must be available for one year ---- to prevent a factory sponsored or otherwise connected shooter from showing up to the match with a gun that was produced to fulfill a contract for the Romanian Army, and that is not otherwise available to his competitors.....

The gist of the logic behind the rule is: Every shooter should be able to walk into the local shop and be able to buy or order the gun, in order for it to be legal for production.

[Nemo]

I'm not clear on the magwell issue. Where does this ruling leave the "production-ready" HK that came out with the magwell?

[Vlad]

I don't really know about the one year thing. What exactly is the purpose? If Glock starts selling model 99 tomorow, which is perfect for USPSA, they make 1 million this year and sell them for $80, and everyone now has one .... Why wait for 1 year before the can be used? And if they sell out the million guns in 6 months? Does that make them not "legal"? What's the sense in that? I think a minimal count has it covered.

[GeorgeInNePa]

I'm not clear on the magwell issue. Where does this ruling leave the "production-ready" HK that came out with the magwell?

It leaves it unsuitable for Production.

[Chuck D]

Million dollar question.....

Did S&W make 2000 5 inch PC 5906's and will they EVER put them in a product catalog ?

If you follow the new criteria....the gun may NOT be legal.

[JD McDorce]

I thought the USPSA list was the same as the IPSC list with a few USPSA additions but now it looks like there are many differences.

It appears that there has been a change in direction where USPSA is now in the process of developing their own independent list (although the current list still maintains some recent IPSC carryovers, such as the SIG Blackwater and Equinox variants that have yet to reach their first anniversary).

IMHO what we currently have is a double edged sword: the criteria is at least published now - which in turn opens it up to public ridicule and debate. I can understand the intent of keeping a manufacturer from coming out with a limited edition uberpistol for use in Production Division. On the other hand, if someone comes to a USPSA match with a XD45ACP or a S&W M&P40, they effectively have the option of shooting in Open Division or going home. I would like to think that there should be some kind of happy medium someplace.

[GeorgeInNePa]

I thought the USPSA list was the same as the IPSC list with a few USPSA additions but now it looks like there are many differences.

It appears that there has been a change in direction where USPSA is now in the process of developing their own independent list (although the current list still maintains some recent IPSC carryovers, such as the SIG Blackwater and Equinox variants that have yet to reach their first anniversary).

IMHO what we currently have is a double edged sword: the criteria is at least published now - which in turn opens it up to public ridicule and debate. I can understand the intent of keeping a manufacturer from coming out with a limited edition uberpistol for use in Production Division. On the other hand, if someone comes to a USPSA match with a XD45ACP or a S&W M&P40, they effectively have the option of shooting in Open Division or going home. I would like to think that there should be some kind of happy medium someplace.

No, they could shoot Limited, Limited 10, or Open (if they wanted to). If they only brought minor ammo they would be forced to shoot minor in Lim or Lim10.

[Nik Habicht]

I thought the USPSA list was the same as the IPSC list with a few USPSA additions but now it looks like there are many differences.

It appears that there has been a change in direction where USPSA is now in the process of developing their own independent list (although the current list still maintains some recent IPSC carryovers, such as the SIG Blackwater and Equinox variants that have yet to reach their first anniversary).

IMHO what we currently have is a double edged sword: the criteria is at least published now - which in turn opens it up to public ridicule and debate. I can understand the intent of keeping a manufacturer from coming out with a limited edition uberpistol for use in Production Division. On the other hand, if someone comes to a USPSA match with a XD45ACP or a S&W M&P40, they effectively have the option of shooting in Open Division or going home. I would like to think that there should be some kind of happy medium someplace.

No, they could shoot Limited, Limited 10, or Open (if they wanted to). If they only brought minor ammo they would be forced to shoot minor in Lim or Lim10.

George,

doesn't Limited and L10 still have the 500 produced and available for one year rule?

Hmmm, just checked, and yes that's how things still stand.....

Open it is....

[GeorgeInNePa]

I thought the USPSA list was the same as the IPSC list with a few USPSA additions but now it looks like there are many differences.

It appears that there has been a change in direction where USPSA is now in the process of developing their own independent list (although the current list still maintains some recent IPSC carryovers, such as the SIG Blackwater and Equinox variants that have yet to reach their first anniversary).

IMHO what we currently have is a double edged sword: the criteria is at least published now - which in turn opens it up to public ridicule and debate. I can understand the intent of keeping a manufacturer from coming out with a limited edition uberpistol for use in Production Division. On the other hand, if someone comes to a USPSA match with a XD45ACP or a S&W M&P40, they effectively have the option of shooting in Open Division or going home. I would like to think that there should be some kind of happy medium someplace.

No, they could shoot Limited, Limited 10, or Open (if they wanted to). If they only brought minor ammo they would be forced to shoot minor in Lim or Lim10.

George,

doesn't Limited and L10 still have the 500 produced and available for one year rule?

Hmmm, just checked, and yes that's how things still stand.....

Open it is....

Nik,

You and JD are absolutely correct, I completely forgot about the 1/500 in Limited/Lim10.

[sigp226]

S&W 5906 with 5" should be fine. The gun is a 5906 with a 5" slide. 5906 guns have been out for years. It is a factory offered part. I have one of these but have not used it for anything.

[GeorgeInNePa]

S&W 5906 with 5" should be fine. The gun is a 5906 with a 5" slide. 5906 guns have been out for years. It is a factory offered part. I have one of these but have not used it for anything.

Sorry Mike, if it's a 5906, how did it get the 5" slide? Show me this gun in the S&W catalog.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/sto...1&content=11001