2nd Optic On Open Ar

[outerlimits]

been playing around with a 2nd optic on my AR. this is difficult to describe, but here's what i notice. the point of aim of the 2nd optic (assuming it's a red dot type) is different than the main optic. i saw this regardless of where it is mounted (i.e. on top of primary scope, on side rail or on handguard). seem like there's some acceptable POA for the red dot you have to accept and not much closer or longer. for example, let's say your primary optic is zeroed at 200. the 2nd optic is likely for close in stuff anyway, but if i zero the 2nd optic for say 15 yds, it's off at 20, and even more so after that. i guess in theory, the line of sights cross at a certain point and you have to accept that.

wondering if anyone was able to get a 2nd optic to have a larger area of effective use than say 10-15 yds after your zero.

[TMC]

Hey Butch,

I had the same issues and found a compromise that woked for me. I zero'd the c-more at about 40. That seemd to work best for me, I can use it on full size targets out to 50-60 if need be and at 5 yards the bullet would hit about 2-2.5 low so on a close head shot I'd hold at the top of the head and that gets an A. Most suff in the mid range I just aim it like my pistol.

[TommiF]

I have also been playing with two optics, Accupoint on flattop and Oko on hanguard. Both have about same height of sight above bore axis. I tried to zero secondary optic to close, like 20m, but I changed it to have same zero than my scope at 150m. When both optics are zeroed to same distance, I can use Oko for backup, if something happens to scope. Also when shooting close targers, no matter what optic I am using, I allways have to aim high up to 50m, where both sights are in zero. It's more clearer to have one zerodistance than different zero for both sights. And when I chance batteries to Oko, I don't need any rounds to zero it, just turn it to same POA than Accupoint.

Tommi

[MyBoyElroy]

Because of the sight offset of the AR and ballistics of the .223, for me it's easier to use a 100 yard zero. That way all the POA's are either POI or hold-over's. No hold-unders.

[uscbigdawg]

When I ran the Sightron and Aimpoin combo, I zeroed the scope at 200 yards and the Aimpoint at 25, using the Aimpoint on anything under say 75 yards. No problems.

I'll be running a TA01/JPoint at the US3GN and have been thinking about this problem. I'm thinking that I'll do similar zeroes. However, I'll see what happens when I try 50, 75 and 100 yard shots with the JPoint. Hopefully, all I have to do is hold a little higher on each. If so, I'll zero at 50 and call 'er done and just not POI at 25 (and under).

Rich

[Bear1142]

Outerlimits,

Dump the second optic and get a good low-powered variable. It will work well at any distance and you won't have to cant your rifle to shoot the short range targets. It will also lighten up your setup a little bit.

Erik

[Bill H]

Outerlimits,

Dump the second optic and get a good low-powered variable. It will work well at any distance and you won't have to cant your rifle to shoot the short range targets. It will also lighten up your setup a little bit.

Erik

Yup that's pretty much it.

[MyBoyElroy]

Outerlimits,

Dump the second optic and get a good low-powered variable. It will work well at any distance and you won't have to cant your rifle to shoot the short range targets. It will also lighten up your setup a little bit.

Erik

The new Elcan Specter DR is promising. Either 1X OR 4X by flipping a lever.

Specter DR link

- Switches instantly from close combat (1x) to telescopic (4x)

- Eye relief (cheekweld) and bore sighting remain constant

- Large, low light exit pupil remains constant

- High efficiency coatings for extended low light performance

- Integrated lever-lock mount for optimum weigh reduction

- Rugged, Reliable Performance

- Shock Protected Precision Optics

- Integrated back-up iron sights are bore sighted to scope

- Download specterDR specifications (PDF

[George]

Listen to Tommi. I have a JPoint on the handguard at 2 0'clock and it's zeroed at 40 yards (200 yards). It is on the money all the way out if need be. I shoot it using a cant and it's no trouble doing transitions to the main optic (ACOG).

It is so close to the bore centerline when mounted on the handguard that holdover on close rangeupper A/B shots is almost non-existent compared to main optics and any other type of secondary sight mounting.

It can ring a flash target at 200 yards with reliability (if you can). If I have to shoot the dot prone, I just mono-pod at a cant so that the dot is vertical, works like a charm out to whatever distance a dot can work for you.

If you zero at any distance closer than 40 yards, the extreme bullet rise you get is ridiculous at any distance other than that distance, or closer.

The idea behind the secondary sight is to have a non-magnified option for CQ and to also reap additional benefits like backup capability and low POA/POI impact at point blank when low mounted (not up on main scope or rail).

Mount them on the handguard, zero them at 40 yards, verify them at 200 and my bet is you will suddenly start to like secondary sight systems a lot more. Remember, in Open you can do anything you want, so there is no reason to have only one sight system unless you only want one sight system. I like all the options I can get, all it takes is making the option work and not giving up on it too early.

I did not like my JPoint mounted on the scope and only learned to like and trust using it after moving it down onto the handguard.

[outerlimits]

Listen to Tommi. I have a JPoint on the handguard at 2 0'clock and it's zeroed at 40 yards (200 yards). It is on the money all the way out if need be. I shoot it using a cant and it's no trouble doing transitions to the main optic (ACOG).

It is so close to the bore centerline when mounted oon the handguard that holdover on close rangeupper A/B shots is almost non-existent compared to main optics and any other type of secondary sight mounting.

It can ring a flash target at 200 yards with reliability (if you can). If I have to shoot the dot prone, I just mono-pod at a cant so that the dot is vertical, works like a charm out to whatever distance a dot can work for you.

If you zero at any distance closer than 40 yards, the extreme bullet rise you get is ridiculous at any distance other than that distance, or closer.

The idea behind the secondary sight is to have a non-magnified option for CQ and to also reap additional benefits like backup capability and low POA/POI impact at point blank when low mounted (not up on main scope or rail).

Mount them on the handguard, zero them at 40 yards, verify them at 200 and my bet is you will suddenly start to like secondary sight systems a lot more. Remember, in Open you can do anything you want, so there is no reason to have only one sight system unless you only want one sight system. I like all the options I can get, all it takes is making the option work and not giving up on it too early.

I did not like my JPoint mounted on the scope and only learned to like and trust using it after moving it down onto the handguard.

geoff-

my docter is mounted om my rail using a yankee machine canted mount...like it alot, but that may be some of the issue. didn't mount to my handguard cause it's carbon fibre and that's problematic. will try out a longer zero to see if that matters...i only intend to use it on the 0-25 yd stuff anyway since my main optic is 1.25 on the bottom end anyway.

[George]

Butch, the first trick is to get it as close to the centerline of the bore as possible. Handguard mounting will get a JPoint/Optima type dot about 1.5" off the bore axis. This means the POI to POA offset at CQ distances is really, really small in comparison to traditional sights/scopes/higher dot mounts.

The second trick is to mount it so that when it is used, you are sighting it vertically aligned. If these babies are mounted so that you shoot through them with the dot at other than 12:O'Clock above the bbl centerline, then the bullet rise/trajectory skews your azz' all over the place at any distance beyond about 15-20 yards and even then it's PITA to sight in while the dot module is canted out of vertical in any way.

I shoot through my dot with the rifle canted so the dot is straight up and this makes it work just like a a primary type sight up on the rail, with the added benefit of a close to the bore dot. At point blank, I only have to hold the dot right at the edge of the paper on the upper A/B and kinda centered to get an A instead of some imaginary point up and to one side or another like some other CQ sighting rigamaroles. The fact that this also makes the secondary sight work properly right out to the .223 cartridge horizon is just another plus.

Here is my setup:

[TommiF]

My Oko is mounted to carbonfibretube with aluminium rail from JP. I don't see any problem with that, atleast with DPMS tube. I mounted it as back as possible, earlier I had Oko front of tube, but I had problems with small windows/openings.

Tommi

[outerlimits]

My Oko is mounted to carbonfibretube with aluminium rail from JP. I don't see any problem with that, atleast with DPMS tube. I mounted it as back as possible, earlier I had Oko front of tube, but I had problems with small windows/openings.

Tommi

i used to run an accupoint and loved it for close stuff-saw no reason for a 2nd optic-just hated it for 300+ stuff. an oko or cmore will be pretty far off the bore center, given the height of the lens. my setup is closer to the bore and right under the mian optic-close, where i can find the dot...

[TommiF]

i used to run an accupoint and loved it for close stuff-saw no reason for a 2nd optic-just hated it for 300+ stuff. an oko or cmore will be pretty far off the bore center, given the height of the lens. my setup is closer to the bore and right under the mian optic-close, where i can find the dot...

My scope is 64mm above bore and Oko 67mm above bore. I don't have to look for dot, it just appears when needed. I tried Firepoint in same rail in tube, but it vent too low and also I like Oko more couse larger lens and brighter dot.

Tommi

[rkgsmith]

Used to shoot a scope and dot in open, switched to Tactical with a 1-4 Bushnell. I'll never go back to a dot even if the whole match was under 50 yards. I found my times were the same with the dot or scope. Plus the scope never goes down, never needs adjusting, costs a lot less, and is a real bonus when the targets get beyond 200.