Hits Vs. Time

[Cuz]

Great stuff here guys. I've been wondering this for some time but couldn't seem to figure it out. I think I've got it now, but will save these posts to re-read a few times.

-Cuz

[Bamboozled]

Great thread, just what I was looking for!

It took me a while to find it, but I'm glad I took the time. Lots of good info.

Thanks everyone.

[jdburke]

I've only shot 5 local club matches. The 2 biggest things I've learned are:

1. Safety, accuracy, speed...in that order.

2. You can't miss fast enough to win.

I've spent more time working on my mechanics of draw, grip, sight picture, movement, etc., and have gotten better and faster with each match. (I haven't got to the "leader board" yet... but I'm no longer at the bottom of the pack either.)

John

[Harmon]

sometimes you can miss fast enough to win...but not at the national level..because someone will shoot it fast as you did..but shoot an Alpha instead of that mike you got.

Stage No: 2 V for Vengence - D.A.P.S.

Place Name No. Class Division Points Penalties Time Hit Factor Stage Pts Stage %

1 Greer, Harmon 78 A Open 125 10 10.00 11.5000 140.0000 100.00%

2 Reed, Jimmy 14 U Open 132 0 11.80 11.1864 136.1823 97.27%

3 Houston, David 30 A Open 135 0 13.24 10.1964 124.1301 88.66%

4 widmer, Greg 72 M Open 134 0 13.57 9.8747 120.2137 85.87%

5 Kelly, Robert 4 B Open 130 0 13.21 9.8410 119.8035 85.57%

6 Teel, Dave 64 C Open 139 0 14.16 9.8164 119.5040 85.36%

7 Morris, John 45 C Open 128 0 13.63 9.3910 114.3252 81.66%

8 McElroy, Richard 41 C Open 127 0 14.95 8.4950 103.4174 73.87%

9 Harris, John 51 B Open 122 0 14.59 8.3619 101.7970 72.71%

10 Betterton, Scott 50 U Open 135 0 16.29 8.2873 100.8889 72.06%

11 Chambers, James 3 U Open 135 10 16.86 7.4140 90.2574 64.47%

12 Cross, David 31 C Open 137 0 19.00 7.2105 87.7800 62.70%

13 Clark, Michael 10 C Open 138 0 20.31 6.7947 82.7181 59.08%

14 Stonaker, Rhonda 12 B Open 121 10 16.84 6.5914 80.2431 57.32%

15 Parenti, Pete 23 U Open 122 0 18.80 6.4894 79.0014 56.43%

16 Keis, Tom 62 C Open 119 0 19.55 6.0870 74.1026 52.93%

17 Sawyer, Don 24 B Open 110 30 13.17 6.0744 73.9492 52.82%

18 Davis, Glenn 42 C Open 129 0 21.29 6.0592 73.7642 52.69%

[Steve Moneypenny]

I'm under the philosophy of shoot as fast as you can see if the sights are in the A/C zone it is acceptable in most cases. A's are more important in minor. but the gun also moves less.

[steel1212]

anyway finally a GM told me this.

if you are shooting more than 95% of the avaiable points on a stage you are shooting to slow, If you are shooting less than 85% of the Points on a stage you are shooting to fast.

Are you talking about the % at the end of the stage results? I.E.

Place Name No. Class Division Points Penalties Time Hit Factor Stage Pts Stage %

1 Estill, Corey 12 D Limited 10 64 0 11.20 5.7143 70.0000 100.00%

2 Dillard, Jerry 9 B Limited 10 54 0 9.79 5.5158 67.5684 96.53%

3 Rhea, Michael 18 B Limited 10 61 0 13.26 4.6003 56.3535 80.51%

[Flexmoney]

Corey,

Check out DaBlaster's post (#25) for his take on it.

He won 5 of 6 the six Area matches he has shot so far this year!

[steel1212]

Corey,

Check out DaBlaster's post (#25) for his take on it.

He won 5 of 6 the six Area matches he has shot so far this year!

So basically shoot the As, as you get better you'll shoot the As faster and faster. See what you need to see to shoot the As and as you get better you'll see what you need to see faster?

Does that make since?

[Allgoodhits]

Another newbie question....Shot my second match this afternoon....

I'm shooting production (Beretta 92)which is "minor", and my friend and I are trying to figure out what's more important when running through the stages, more hits or a quicker time?? or is it dependant on where your hits are falling???

Late to enter, but have read all the input.

How about keeping it very simple. Accumulate points as quickly as you safely can.

If you do not have sufficient accuracy the point accummulation will suffer, and if accuarcy is very poor then time will not matter much no matter how fast it is.

When you get more accurate push the speed envelope, trying not to let accuracy fall off. If accuracy falls off too much, slow down. Keep moderating until the balance is comfortable and safe for you. Part of that balance is accepting what is accurate enough and being able to excecute that level of accuracy on demand as needed.

If you work on accuracy, then the speed will likely come anyway as your confidence builds and as you play the game. If however, your focus is on speed, then accuracy will likely not happen on it's own.

You must train to have accuracy and speed in your tool kit. Then experience will give you the wisdom to know which tool is best for that particular shot. Again balance is the key and that balance of speed vs accuracy may swing from 90-10 60-40 40-60 10-90

within a stage.

So, Accumulate points as quickly as you safely can.

MJ

[Trooper]

Lots of good food for thought here.. thanks...

I actually got a bit depressed at our last club shoot..... Shot a strong hand only stage and only dropped one shot out of the A.... into the C. (Shooting minor like 95% of folks here)

Was plenty of movement involved - and as we are only allowed 10 round mags there was a mag change.

I was pretty happy.. till I worked out that the shooter up after me had a MUCH (MUCH!) better HF, even though he was dropping points all over the place....

Sounds like I'm being too careful?

[Alaskapopo]

I've only shot 5 local club matches. The 2 biggest things I've learned are:

1. Safety, accuracy, speed...in that order.

2. You can't miss fast enough to win.

I've spent more time working on my mechanics of draw, grip, sight picture, movement, etc., and have gotten better and faster with each match. (I haven't got to the "leader board" yet... but I'm no longer at the bottom of the pack either.)

John

Very true but unfortunately your talking about gun fighting skills and most here are into playing a game.

Pat

[Lee Bell]

Another newbie question....Shot my second match this afternoon....

I'm shooting production (Beretta 92)which is "minor", and my friend and I are trying to figure out what's more important when running through the stages, more hits or a quicker time?? or is it dependant on where your hits are falling???

You've already gotten some good detailed answers. Here's a non detailed one from a relative newbie.

While both accuracy and time are important, one second is more important than one point. Case in point is a stage I recently shot against some other relative newbies. I scored 149 points. The next best point score in my division was 140. The person that shot the 140 was two seconds faster than I was. That two seconds was enough to give him a slight advantage in the hits per second ratio. Two seconds more than overcam a 9 point difference.

Lee

[benos]

The heck with all the calculations and formulas. Shoot A's as fast as you possibly can. Let the image of the front sight, nested adequately in the rear notch, dictate your speed.

I like that one. And can't add any more to it.

be

[Mr Glack]

sometimes you can miss fast enough to win...but not at the national level..because someone will shoot it fast as you did..but shoot an Alpha instead of that mike you got.

Stage No: 2 V for Vengence - D.A.P.S.

Place Name No. Class Division Points Penalties Time Hit Factor Stage Pts Stage %

1 Greer, Harmon 78 A Open 125 10 10.00 11.5000 140.0000 100.00%

18 Davis, Glenn 42 C Open 129 0 21.29 6.0592 73.7642 52.69%

Missed this one earlier. For this case in point. If the No.1 shooter trades 1 second for 10 points (subtracts 1 second but incurs an extra penalty of 10) the hit factor improves. If however the last shooter does the same thing hit factor goes down. Depending on the balance of total time taken for the stage v the total points available (including penalties) the relative value of time v accuracy will vary. In this case Harmon would do well to trade 10 points for a savings of 1 second while Glenn would not.

If on the other hand the reverse is done (increase time by 1 second in order to improve points by 10) Harmon's HF goes down while Glenn's improves.

Just an observation.

I think this is a tempting game to play, but convoluted thinking. The personal right answer is probably to improve both without sacrificing either.

Edited May 5, 2007 by Mr Glack

[Mick]

Exactly right.

We shot a stage at DTR last month where I shot my 32 rounds (16 targets) in 16.06 and dropped 3 points (3 Cs).

Another GM shot it in 14.49 but dropped 21 points! And, another fella shot it in 14.99 but dropped 19 points. Do the math, I came out ahead...

My HF=9.77

#2 HF=9.59

#3 HF=9.40

Shoot all As but do it fast!

I'm also the one SCORCH refers to about taking the # of shots and dividing by two for an estimated time to shoot the stage. This often works IF you shoot ALL As and in the stage listed above it worked out correctly however other factors can come into play....

Edited May 7, 2007 by Mick

[benos]

This came to me when I read this thread's title. Don't think Hits vs. time. Think: Hits AND time.

be

[Mick]

This came to me when I read this thread's title. Don't think Hits vs. time. Think: Hits AND time.

be

AND..... there you have the answer!!!

[Flexmoney]

This came to me when I read this thread's title. Don't think Hits vs. time. Think: Hits AND time.

be

That reminds me of my signiture line on another shooting forum:

"I refuse to accept the notion that you have to give up accuracy to get speed."

hmmm...it might read better that other way around ?

"I refuse to accept the notion that you have to give up speed to get accuracy."

[Steve Anderson]

C'mon guys...

Here's the deal:

Train for speed in practice and forget about it at the match. FORGET ABOUT IT.

FUHGEDDABAHDIT.

If you apply any notion of speed in a match, your idiot conscios brain is now in charge, denying your subconscious skills the opportunity to get the job done quickly and efficiently.

I actually wrote a chapter in the new book about an egotistical CEO who insisted on doing everything himself while a perfectly good staff did nothing. It was a good analogy, but a little obtuse upon reflection...

Shoot alphas. If you are slower than than you wish to be, train more.

At the match, forget about speed.

Please.

SA

[trevoro]

IMHO

1) Shooting all A's slowly will almost always put you near the bottom of the competitor list.

2) Shooting a lot of A's quickly will obviously put you near the top.

3) You will never, ever win by shooting slowly.

4) Shooting the match like your butt is on fire, on the ragged edge, will probably win you a stage.

5) Shooting the match within your ability to see the sights and call your shots will probably end up placing you higher in the match than you finished on any one stage. Consitency wins matches, not stage victories.

6) A stage with lots of no-shoots and hard cover should be shot for points only because the "disaster factor" is too high to shoot for speed.

7) Shooting really, really fast can win stages by a little.

8) Shooting really fast with accuracy can win stages by a lot.

I shot the Area 1 match last year with my entire strategy based on the advice of a local GM, Keith T. It was a pretty technical match with a high disaster factor. He told me that most other shooters would be trying to burn down the stages. His advice was that I slow down and shoot A's. The reason that worked though was that the match was so technical. It wouldn't have worked at a club match with a lot of wide open targets. I shot a consistent match and did very well, but I was far from the fastest shooter there. What made the difference for me was that I didn't crash on any of the stages. Lesson learned.

That being said, it's much more fun to shoot like your ass is on fire! Ha ha.

[billdncn]

C'mon guys...

Here's the deal:

Train for speed in practice and forget about it at the match. FORGET ABOUT IT.

FUHGEDDABAHDIT.

If you apply any notion of speed in a match, your idiot conscios brain is now in charge, denying your subconscious skills the opportunity to get the job done quickly and efficiently.

Shoot alphas. If you are slower than than you wish to be, train more.

At the match, forget about speed.

Please.

SA

Ya know......It has taken me a little while to figure this out. I'm still somewhat of a newbie. When I first started (last August) trying to learn and be safe I was smooth, and accurate.

Lately I have been shooting too fast. I has been reflected in my scores, and placement among my fellow competitors. Dropping too many points.

I am trying very hard now to self discipline myself to see the front sight when I need to, with a good follow through, and calling my shoots. In other words.....To slow down when I need to, to make good hits.

It's like I picked up a bad habit, and am now trying to relearn the proper technique.

You hit the nail on the head Mr. Anderson.....regarding my biggest problem I feel right now.

Thanks for helping to confirm my weakening conscious mind. I guess what you said is the main thing I need to do to become a more disciplined shooter.

Anymore pointers?

Thanks

Edited May 22, 2007 by billdncn

[Matt Griffin]

I've gone through that stage, and will likely go through it again. As Steve says, practice speed, but don't think speed in a match. When you plateau and make the decision to improve, you have to restrict the speed to training; like a gambler who hits an inside straight you might get lucky and shred a stage, then have that speed incorrectly stuck in your head as "your" speed.

I don't use the timer much when practicing draws, mag changes, etc. I do them as fast as I can, what else is there? But one thing I've found the timer very helpful for is to repeatedly prove to myself that the difference between me going at warp speed and shooting the sights properly is minimal. Your speed is your speed, and you might as well let it do its thing while you concentrate on the one thing you can alter: when you break the shot. Quality of sight picture is the only thought you can keep in your head.

H.

[billdncn]

I've gone through that stage, and will likely go through it again. As Steve says, practice speed, but don't think speed in a match. When you plateau and make the decision to improve, you have to restrict the speed to training; like a gambler who hits an inside straight you might get lucky and shred a stage, then have that speed incorrectly stuck in your head as "your" speed.

I don't use the timer much when practicing draws, mag changes, etc. I do them as fast as I can, what else is there? But one thing I've found the timer very helpful for is to repeatedly prove to myself that the difference between me going at warp speed and shooting the sights properly is minimal. Your speed is your speed, and you might as well let it do its thing while you concentrate on the one thing you can alter: when you break the shot. Quality of sight picture is the only thought you can keep in your head.

H.

Very well said Sir

[jgilmore16]

Wow, when I started this thread, didn't realize it would get quite this many responses..

some ideas for drills to work on speed??

[Flexmoney]

Wow, when I started this thread, didn't realize it would get quite this many responses..

...and, those responses are from some of the most experienced shooters around (I just read back through who all posted). The tread is worth a re-read.

some ideas for drills to work on speed??

Yup...a re-read.