Cm 99-02

[Shadow]

During the Saturday match, a shooter is shooting 99-02 (3 strings, free style, SH,WH, five targets with one round each string on T2-T5 and two rounds each string for T1, T1 is the middle target). On first string, shooter mistakenly shoots two rounds on the first target (not T1) and then finishes the string correctly. On second string, shooter engages the other targets correctly but does not fire at the target he shot the extra round on during string one. Shooter shoots string 3 correctly.

A lot of discussion on the correct penalty/s.

At the end the correct number of hits were on the targets and the correct number of shots were fired (over all).

What penalty/s would you give this shooter?

[Jim Norman]

During the Saturday match, a shooter is shooting 99-02 (3 strings, free style, SH,WH, five targets with one round each string on T2-T5 and two rounds each string for T1, T1 is the middle target). On first string, shooter mistakenly shoots two rounds on the first target (not T1) and then finishes the string correctly. On second string, shooter engages the other targets correctly but does not fire at the target he shot the extra round on during string one. Shooter shoots string 3 correctly.

A lot of discussion on the correct penalty/s.

At the end the correct number of hits were on the targets and the correct number of shots were fired (over all).

What penalty/s would you give this shooter?

If you set this up on three seperate fields you would have the following

String One, Extra Shot, Extra HIt

String Two, Failure to Engage, Miss

String Three, No penalties

No why would we score it any different if we shoot it all on one bay?

Jim Norman

[open17]

99-02 contains the instructions "targets and no-shoots are to be scored and taped between strings".

Is that how you ran the classifier?

[Shadow]

99-02 contains the instructions "targets and no-shoots are to be scored and taped between strings".

Is that how you ran the classifier?

No, they did not. They scored after completion of all three strings.

[Loves2Shoot]

They did it wrong , and now you know why

Standard with muliple string need to be scored and taped between strings.

[Shadow]

If anyone had read those instructions, and scored it that way, there would have been no questions. Sheesh. For anyone curious, they scored it one extra shot.

As a side note, it sure would take a long time to run that classifier if it was done correctly.

[mactiger]

If anyone had read those instructions, and scored it that way, there would have been no questions. Sheesh. For anyone curious, they scored it one extra shot.

As a side note, it sure would take a long time to run that classifier if it was done correctly.

If you don't score and tape between strings, one extra shot is the only penalty that can be assessed. Otherwise, Jim has it right.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

I didn't look this stage up, but if the procedure for the second string required engaging a target...and that target didn't get engaged on that string...then I think a procedural would be in order (for failing to follow the written stage procedure).

??

[Shadow]

My thought at the time was two procedurals, one for both the first and second string since the stage procedure for those strings wasn't followed correctly, but no extra shot penalty, since the number of shots fired was correct.

[Loves2Shoot]

The number of shots were NOT fired correctly. Each string of fire is indepedendant of any other string of shots fired, that is whay they MUST be scored and taped as such. You can't score them as a group of shots because they are strings of fire.

[Shadow]

The number of shots were NOT fired correctly. Each string of fire is indepedendant of any other string of shots fired, that is whay they MUST be scored and taped as such. You can't score them as a group of shots because they are strings of fire.

I agree they were not fired and scored correctly. But, they WERE NOT "scored and taped as such" and they WERE scored at the end of the strings. Given that was how it was scored, how do you score a miss and give a FTE to a target that should have three holes in it and does?

That's why my initial thought was two procedurals.

[ima45dv8]

During the Saturday match, a shooter is shooting 99-02 (3 strings, free style, SH,WH, five targets with one round each string on T2-T5 and two rounds each string for T1, T1 is the middle target). On first string, shooter mistakenly shoots two rounds on the first target (not T1) and then finishes the string correctly. On second string, shooter engages the other targets correctly but does not fire at the target he shot the extra round on during string one. Shooter shoots string 3 correctly.

A lot of discussion on the correct penalty/s.

At the end the correct number of hits were on the targets and the correct number of shots were fired (over all).

What penalty/s would you give this shooter?

Even though you weren't taping and scoring between strings as required, you obviously know that the shooter fired an Extra Shot on the first string. That's 1 XS Penalty. It seems you also saw them not fire at a target during the second string. 1 more penalty for an FTE and 1 for a Miss/Mike (total of 2 for string 2).

If they hit a target with the XS in the first string, it's also an Extra Hit (XH) penalty.

Looks like a total of 4 to me.

[Shadow]

During the Saturday match, a shooter is shooting 99-02 (3 strings, free style, SH,WH, five targets with one round each string on T2-T5 and two rounds each string for T1, T1 is the middle target). On first string, shooter mistakenly shoots two rounds on the first target (not T1) and then finishes the string correctly. On second string, shooter engages the other targets correctly but does not fire at the target he shot the extra round on during string one. Shooter shoots string 3 correctly.

A lot of discussion on the correct penalty/s.

At the end the correct number of hits were on the targets and the correct number of shots were fired (over all).

What penalty/s would you give this shooter?

Even though you weren't taping and scoring between strings as required, you obviously know that the shooter fired an Extra Shot on the first string. That's 1 XS Penalty. It seems you also saw them not fire at a target during the second string. 1 more penalty for an FTE and 1 for a Miss/Mike (total of 2 for string 2).

If they hit a target with the XS in the first string, it's also an Extra Hit (XH) penalty.

Looks like a total of 4 to me.

Extra shot was obvious (that is what they ended up scoring). Extra hit was not obvious (last squad, heavily pasted target).

Fast shooting A class Open shooter, RO watching the shooter, rather than the targets and no-shoot obscuring ROs vision. Which target had the miss/FTE (remember they weren't scored until all three strings were completed and all targets had the correct number of holes)? Was there an extra hit on the first string (obviously after seeing all the targets had the correct number of hits), but if so, which target had the extra hit? If the shooter argues, how do you prove which target had an extra hit and which one had the miss and FTE if the RO didn't positively see it? Does the squad get to score the shooter (don't think so)? If the RO can't correctly score the targets (which one had the extra hit and which one had the miss), does the shooter get a reshoot (this was one of the arguments)?

In hindsight, had anyone noticed the scoring notes on the classifier, I'd say a reshoot for for this shooter and everyone who had been scored this way (incorrectly, after completing all strings) or throwing the stage out would be the right answer.

[LPatterson]

The number of shots were NOT fired correctly. Each string of fire is indepedendant of any other string of shots fired, that is whay they MUST be scored and taped as such. You can't score them as a group of shots because they are strings of fire.

I disagree with the premise that every string of fire is independent of any other string of fire. There are several classifiers that have mutiple strings of fire that do not require taping between strings.

It is stupid to tape between strings since the shooter would have to USC per 8.3.8 while taping is going on unless the shooter is allowed to walk around in violation of US 5.2.2. USPSA should change the WSB to tape at the end of the COF.

[Loves2Shoot]

The number of shots were NOT fired correctly. Each string of fire is indepedendant of any other string of shots fired, that is whay they MUST be scored and taped as such. You can't score them as a group of shots because they are strings of fire.

I disagree with the premise that every string of fire is independent of any other string of fire. There are several classifiers that have mutiple strings of fire that do not require taping between strings.

It is stupid to tape between strings since the shooter would have to USC per 8.3.8 while taping is going on unless the shooter is allowed to walk around in violation of US 5.2.2. USPSA should change the WSB to tape at the end of the COF.

It maybe "stupid" but that's the way that particular classified works and the taping between strings makes each one independant of the other. The shooter is not allowed to walk around and generally supervised and told exaclty were to place their hands. Multiple string targets ususally are bottlenecks at matches and I steer clear of them when I do matches.

[vluc]

Seems the correct thing is to throw the classifier out since it was not run correctly, offer a refund/discount to the folks who shot it, and have a review by the MD with the RO's on how to read a stage description.