Stupid FFL's

[rtr]

Have to transfer a couple of guns from out of state, dropped by the cheapest FFL for transfers I know about in town, have used him once before with no issues.

This time he gives me a clear packing slip, the ones you stick on the outside of a box, tells me that the one gun that is coming from an individual he needs to put the copy of HIS FFL (the guy who is transferring the gun for me, not where it's coming from) inside the slip on the outside of the package, because "see this is a valid FFL until 2009" or somesuch. Like the guy who is selling me the gun is going to use it to setup shop in another state somehow.

Then goes on to tell me since I'm transferring two guns at once that he has to fill out some special form to give to the ATF, that I could pickup one and then the second a week or so later if I wanted and we could avoid the special paperwork. This may be true, nobody said anything the last time I bought two guns, but why should I care?

I've had several ridiculous experiences like these, and I've read about many here and elsewhere, why are FFL holders so weird so often?

[LPatterson]

Because BATFE is so wierd all of the time and a lot of agents don't know the law.

If you go to a retail/gun store and want to buy more than 1 gun at a time or even later on the same day the FFL holder is required to fill out additional paper work.

Do what is necessary and ship 1 gun the next day unless you live in a state that has purchase requirement, i.e. 1 per week, 1 per month.

[Rob Boudrie]

I believe the "multiple gun" reporting is for handguns only. It's not triggered by when you have the guns shipped to the FFL, but by when you fill out the 4473 to accept delivery.

[Middle Man]

Multiples apply to handgun purchases only. A multiple gun transaction can be affected (i.e. delayed or not allowed) by state laws that limit firearm purchases. It is part of the buyers 4473 paperwork and is an additional small form the the FFL has to complete.

[chuckbradley]

We have to fill the form out then mail a copy to the ATF and to our chief LEO. Funny thing is last time I called the Sheriff and he said not to send it to him but send it to the State police. I called the State police to ask where to send it to and after talking to 5-6 people i get ahold of the guy who does the selling of the confiscated guns to FFL's. He said he doesnt even know where in his own agency to mail it to. So I just mailed it to the Sheriff. I fulfilled my obligation even though it went in the trash as soon as he opened it.

Something else about the ATF, we can now look up FFL's on the internet to verify their legitimacy but we can not use that verification in place of a signed faxed FFL. If the signed , faxed FFL is blurry where you cant read the numbers of the FFL then it isnt a valid FFL. The black box with the number was put on the FFL's to keep them from being faxed. They are making hte number allot bigger on new FFl's but they wont send you a new one until you have to renew. I really cant see why we cant get the verification and ship based on that. It provides us with the name and address.

I had one dealer this week who required me the seller to send him a copy of my FFL before he would send me a copy of theirs. Some of these things that we think are ATF rules are nothing but rules of individual dealers.

[j2fast]

I had one dealer this week who required me the seller to send him a copy of my FFL before he would send me a copy of theirs. Some of these things that we think are ATF rules are nothing but rules of individual dealers.

This is what I've run into buying and selling recently. I bought a limited gun from a fellow BE'r (not an FFL), he asked me to send a signed FFL from my guy along with the check then he would FedEx the pistol to my FFL and my guy had no problem with that. Everything went very smoothly and I'm now happily shooting Limited.

Then I sell a pistol to a guy in MO thinking we could just follow the same process. Oh no, the FFL in MO would NOT send me a company of his FFL and would NOT except a shipment from a non-FFL. He told my buyer that it was the law and only FFL's could ship pistols. He would only send his FFL directly to my FFL then my FFL had to ship him the gun and include a copy of his license.

I'm not well versed in the finer points of gun laws as they relate to interstate sales but when I read the info on the ATF web site it seems pretty black and white to me. I just wish there was a little consistency and not as many individual rules.

[Rob Boudrie]

And, if you have an FFL number the BATF allows you to download the entire FFL database (excluding C&R FFLs). Having that info in your database makes for interesting queries such as "select count(*) from FFL where license_name like '%wal%mart%'

[blackdragon]

Shipping pistols from one state to another has to be done through FFL dealers. Even if you are giving it as a gift to a relative.

Ivan

[mpolans]

Not quite true, and misperceptions like these propagate the problems lots of folks encounter. A handgun that is shipped interstate must be *received* by an FFL.

However, federal law doesn't require it to be *shipped* by an FFL.

It also cannot go by US Postal Service...it must be shipped by a "common carrier" (FedEx, UPS, etc.) and you must let them know it is a firearm when you ship it. This last comes up since all of the common carriers I know have a company-wide policy of shipping via the expensive overnight method instead of allowing the cheaper ground method.

A lot of FFL dealers refuse to send copies of their FFLs to non-FFL holders and refuse to accept guns from folks who don't have FFLs, but this isn't based on the law.

While an FFL might be required to have signed copy of an FFL before he can ship a gun to the receiving FFL (on this one, I'm not sure whether this is law or not, but I think it is), a non-FFL holder can ship to an FFL without it...he just bears the risk of committing a felony if he ends up sending it to a non-FFL holder. Fortunately, BATFE has a free online database were people can verify if someone's FFL and their shipping address called (IIRC) "FFL EZCheck."

But remember, this isn't to be relied on as legal advice, there might be state laws that affect you in addition to federal laws, consult your local attorney, etc.

Shipping pistols from one state to another has to be done through FFL dealers. Even if you are giving it as a gift to a relative.

Ivan

[blackdragon]

I was informed by our ATF auditor at our last audit. If I send a pistol to my son in a different state it has to be shipped from a FFL dealer to another FFL dealer. Why? The receiving dealer has to have my FFL dealers license to log it into his Accuisition, Dipostion log. He would need a copy of my FFL to do this. If I transport the pistol my self It is beaking the law.

Ivan

My 2 pennys

[Rob Boudrie]

It also cannot go by US Postal Service...it must be shipped by a "common carrier" (FedEx, UPS, etc.)

FFLs may use the US Mail to ship handguns between each other. FFLs may not use the US Mail to ship a handgun to a non-licenses, and a non-licensee may not use the US Mail to ship a handgun to an FFL. The FFL shipping a handgun must submit USPS form 1508 declaring shipment, and the shipment must be in the "ordinary course of business."

US mail can be much more cost-effective than the now required premium service UPS makes you use so their employees get less of a chance to steal the handgun.

[bgary]

Perhaps. I'm not an FFL, so I'm not familiar with any "extra" requirements you may have as you move things into and out of your bound book.

But I do know that I, *not* an FFL, can perfectly legally ship a firearm I already own to an FFL (or smith, or manufacturer) in another state. And that FFL or smith or manufacturer can perfectly legally ship that firearm - or a replacement firearm - back to me, directly, even though I am not an FFL.

The key thing to note, as I understand it, is that such shipping back and forth does not represent a "transfer". If I were buying or selling a gun across state lines, then, yes, the shipping has to involve an FFL. But even then, I can ship the gun to the recieving FFL in the other state, even though *I* don't have an FFL.

Bruce

[blackdragon]

bgary,

The only thing I can say is" You may be the rap, But you won't beat the ride"!

Ivan

Some times I think the ATF doesn't have a grip on it!

I

[Rob Boudrie]

bgary,

The only thing I can say is" You may be the rap, But you won't beat the ride"!

Ivan

Some times I think the ATF doesn't have a grip on it!

I

There are indeed cases where people have been burned by running on the edge of the law (just ask the Maadi-Griffin guy), however, shipment from a non-FFL to a manufacturer or FFL licensed gunsmith is not one of them. This is a commonly accepted practice and, as far as I am aware, has never been a problem. Even name brand companies like Glock and S&W receive repairs form non-FFL customers on a refular basis.

[eerw]

Here's a couple of links that may be helpful

BATF FAQs

FFL EZ check

[bgary]

There's no "rap" to beat. Those things are *straight* out of the FAQs and regulations on the BATF website.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm

I can provide more info/documentation and cites of specific regulations, if you'd like. I am *very* careful when it comes to things that could result in the loss of my firearms rights.

Bruce

[chuckbradley]

Perhaps. I'm not an FFL, so I'm not familiar with any "extra" requirements you may have as you move things into and out of your bound book.

But I do know that I, *not* an FFL, can perfectly legally ship a firearm I already own to an FFL (or smith, or manufacturer) in another state. And that FFL or smith or manufacturer can perfectly legally ship that firearm - or a replacement firearm - back to me, directly, even though I am not an FFL.

The key thing to note, as I understand it, is that such shipping back and forth does not represent a "transfer". If I were buying or selling a gun across state lines, then, yes, the shipping has to involve an FFL. But even then, I can ship the gun to the recieving FFL in the other state, even though *I* don't have an FFL.

Bruce

Your right on Bruce. the recieveing FFL doesnt even have to have an FFL to log it into his book. He can enter the name & address of the individual he recieves it from, the dealer he recieves it from or the FFL number of the dealer he recieves it from. We include a copy of our FFL as a matter of courtesy and convenience to the recieving dealer. Allot of the misconcepcions floating around are from greenhorn ATF agents who dont know the law, are trying to make up their own rules or interpretations or are following the same from a superior.

I really wish the ATF was held to the same standard as we are by them. Everytime we make a mistake its a threat of our license , fines or jail time. If we could only reverse that. In some areas it is a pretty adversarial relationship with the ATF for FFL's.

[blackdragon]

I have customers send pistols direct to me all the time. We repair them and return them directly to them. That is legal. As far as shipping a firearm it is companys rules not the law, That determins the method of shipment. I have shipped with all cariers. All I know and understand is. If I want to give a firearm to my son. In a different state, And it is going to be his property. I was advised , By the ATF, to ship it from my FFL to another FFL and he has to do the 4473.

Ivan

[bgary]

If I want to give a firearm to my son. In a different state, And it is going to be his property. I was advised , By the ATF, to ship it from my FFL to another FFL and he has to do the 4473

Yup, I think that is right.

-- if I, a non-licensee, want to send a gun to you, a gunsmith (with FFL) or manufacturer in a different state, for repair, I can ship it directly to you, and you can ship it directly to me. I don't need to ship it thru an FFL on my end, you don't need to ship it back to an FFL. There is no "transfer" involved, it is "my gun" throughout the whole process.

-- if I, a non-licensee, want to *sell* (or give, or otherwise transfer ownership), I have to ship it to an FFL, but I can still ship it out myself. when it reaches the FFL, the transfer has to be recorded on a 4473.

-- if you want to *transfer* a gun to your son, in a different state, you have to ship it to an FFL, and a 4473 needs to be done. If you are *also* an FFL, and the gun is on your books, you can do the outbound transfer yourself, but you also have to do whatever paperwork it takes to log the transfer and record its disposition in your books.

$.02

Bruce

[blackdragon]

Bruce,

I think we have it! I go to the ATF meetings every year, Due to our Import license. We have 2-3 Virgina farm boys in our office every 2 months or so. I know these guys and I always ask stupid questions. They seem to think, It is better to CYA and they like to see a paper trail. As Sh&ty as that seems, At least you have some recourse. If I get busted for what ever, When I drop thier names they will remember me!

Ivan