Learning More About S&w Qc...

[Jerry V]

"The new firing pins work okay at factory weight trigger pulls using non- Wolff mainsprings"

That's real interesting

Then I quess my new 625 I bought last Oct. is defective, since I run it with a Wolff Reduced mainspring adjusted to 2lbs (6lb trigger pull) with 100% realiblity as in no FTFs. And yes, it does have the shorter firing pin.

I with Mike about the placebo thing

Waltermitty, I didn't read this anywhere in the post (forgive if it has), but did you check for endshake ? Because this can also be a factor.

JV

[Waltermitty]

"The new firing pins work okay at factory weight trigger pulls using non- Wolff mainsprings"

That's real interesting

Then I quess my new 625 I bought last Oct. is defective, since I run it with a Wolff Reduced mainspring adjusted to 2lbs (6lb trigger pull) with 100% realiblity as in no FTFs. And yes, it does have the shorter firing pin.

I with Mike about the placebo thing

Waltermitty, I didn't read this anywhere in the post (forgive if it has), but did you check for endshake ? Because this can also be a factor.

JV

Thanks for the reminder about endshake Jerry, and yes, I have the endshake way down. When I installed the Ti cylinder I set it pretty tight. I don't remember the exact total now, but I actually accepted a high end cylinder to forcing cone (barrel) gap to get a very low end shake just for this reason. Actually, I've considered taking a shim out or even removing a little more crane because it is so tight that if I get some crud under the star it can get a little stiff to open and close.

Just for clarification, all components and combinations I own will run at 6 pounds total trigger pull and up. Wolff spring, Jerry spring (bent and unbent), stock spring (bent and unbent), Happy Harolds reduced spring pack, stock strain srew, shorthened strain screw, loose screw, stock hammer, "long" stock FP, "short" stock FP, etc, etc. In fact, I don't think I was really beginning to push the technology, in any of the combinations, until I pushed below about 5.5 lbs total trigger pull.

My goal today is to produce a gun that is 100% at about 4.5 lbs. Somewhere below 6 pounds the complexity curve makes a sharp turn skyward and every little piddling thing you never had to think about suddenly becomes important. Like so many things, that last 5-10% is the hardest part of the goal. The first 80% just about anybody can get by dropping in any of the widely available reduced spring kits.

I am testing the longer FP hypothesis because it makes sense to me that if you were nearing the absolute lower limit of energy required to light the primer, that having any energy transferred into the frame of the gun during the firing process would be a loss (waste) that would have to be made up somewhere else. I'm guessing that if both of my guns had the "long" stock FP I wouldn't have hit this bump (yet), but since my current project gun has a stock FP that is shorter than my other reliable gun (by something like .010") at similar trigger pull weights, I will eliminate that as a potential cause. I thought (briefly) about trying to get the longer FP from Smith, but they have disappointed me in the past on similar matters.

I anticipate that the EFP I have ordered will be longer still than the FP in my "A" gun which is 100% right at 5 lbs total trigger pull. Some of the length will possibly be overkill (waste), then again, the folks that already produce consistenly below where I am think there is some merit to a longer firing pin. I'm willing to consider that a gun with a 33% higher trigger pull (4.5 lbs versus 6.0 lbs) doesn't disprove the null hypothesis.

[10mmdave]

"The new firing pins work okay at factory weight trigger pulls using non- Wolff mainsprings"

That's real interesting

Then I quess my new 625 I bought last Oct. is defective, since I run it with a Wolff Reduced mainspring adjusted to 2lbs (6lb trigger pull) with 100% realiblity as in no FTFs. And yes, it does have the shorter firing pin.

I with Mike about the placebo thing

Waltermitty, I didn't read this anywhere in the post (forgive if it has), but did you check for endshake ? Because this can also be a factor.

JV

Thanks for the reminder about endshake Jerry, and yes, I have the endshake way down. When I installed the Ti cylinder I set it pretty tight. I don't remember the exact total now, but I actually accepted a high end cylinder to forcing cone (barrel) gap to get a very low end shake just for this reason. Actually, I've considered taking a shim out or even removing a little more crane because it is so tight that if I get some crud under the star it can get a little stiff to open and close.

Just for clarification, all components and combinations I own will run at 6 pounds total trigger pull and up. Wolff spring, Jerry spring (bent and unbent), stock spring (bent and unbent), Happy Harolds reduced spring pack, stock strain srew, shorthened strain screw, loose screw, stock hammer, "long" stock FP, "short" stock FP, etc, etc. In fact, I don't think I was really beginning to push the technology, in any of the combinations, until I pushed below about 5.5 lbs total trigger pull.

My goal today is to produce a gun that is 100% at about 4.5 lbs. Somewhere below 6 pounds the complexity curve makes a sharp turn skyward and every little piddling thing you never had to think about suddenly becomes important. Like so many things, that last 5-10% is the hardest part of the goal. The first 80% just about anybody can get by dropping in any of the widely available reduced spring kits.

I am testing the longer FP hypothesis because it makes sense to me that if you were nearing the absolute lower limit of energy required to light the primer, that having any energy transferred into the frame of the gun during the firing process would be a loss (waste) that would have to be made up somewhere else. I'm guessing that if both of my guns had the "long" stock FP I wouldn't have hit this bump (yet), but since my current project gun has a stock FP that is shorter than my other reliable gun (by something like .010") at similar trigger pull weights, I will eliminate that as a potential cause. I thought (briefly) about trying to get the longer FP from Smith, but they have disappointed me in the past on similar matters.

I anticipate that the EFP I have ordered will be longer still than the FP in my "A" gun which is 100% right at 5 lbs total trigger pull. Some of the length will possibly be overkill (waste), then again, the folks that already produce consistenly below where I am think there is some merit to a longer firing pin. I'm willing to consider that a gun with a 33% higher trigger pull (4.5 lbs versus 6.0 lbs) doesn't disprove the null hypothesis.

Huh ??

too many numbers and big words

[Randy Lee]

Smith in their litigant fearing wisdom shortened the firing pins by .010".

OK, you lost me here. How could shortening the FP reduce the chance of litigation?

Sorry Mike,

I was loopy with sleep deprivation. What I meant to say is that to ensure the revos would pass the CA drop test as a "safe" handgun approved for sale in CA. Sorry, my bad.

[Randy Lee]

"The new firing pins work okay at factory weight trigger pulls using non- Wolff mainsprings"

That's real interesting

Then I quess my new 625 I bought last Oct. is defective, since I run it with a Wolff Reduced mainspring adjusted to 2lbs (6lb trigger pull) with 100% realiblity as in no FTFs. And yes, it does have the shorter firing pin.

I with Mike about the placebo thing

Waltermitty, I didn't read this anywhere in the post (forgive if it has), but did you check for endshake ? Because this can also be a factor.

JV

Let me clarify- my original statement is in regards to some samples and questions I received from other shooters who are using a variety of factory ammo in their stock or near stock 625's and 325s. The Wolff mainspring has the channel in the center which allows the strain screw to be seated to max depth and have a reduced hammer fall weight. The shooters experienced ftf's. In some instances the ignition problems were solved by replacing the firing pin with the longer factory version(and sometimes using the C&S). The problem was in other instances solved by replacing the Wolff mainspring with a factory spring.

I also mentioned that the occasional ftf's I encountered occurred in the 4-4.5 lb range. More often when the trigger pulls were in the lighter end of that spectrum. The ignition issues went away after the modified steel firing pins were used.

Jerry, I apologize if I led you to believe that what I said was an absolute.

Randy

[Waltermitty]

"The new firing pins work okay at factory weight trigger pulls using non- Wolff mainsprings"

That's real interesting

Then I quess my new 625 I bought last Oct. is defective, since I run it with a Wolff Reduced mainspring adjusted to 2lbs (6lb trigger pull) with 100% realiblity as in no FTFs. And yes, it does have the shorter firing pin.

I with Mike about the placebo thing

Waltermitty, I didn't read this anywhere in the post (forgive if it has), but did you check for endshake ? Because this can also be a factor.

JV

Thanks for the reminder about endshake Jerry, and yes, I have the endshake way down. When I installed the Ti cylinder I set it pretty tight. I don't remember the exact total now, but I actually accepted a high end cylinder to forcing cone (barrel) gap to get a very low end shake just for this reason. Actually, I've considered taking a shim out or even removing a little more crane because it is so tight that if I get some crud under the star it can get a little stiff to open and close.

Just for clarification, all components and combinations I own will run at 6 pounds total trigger pull and up. Wolff spring, Jerry spring (bent and unbent), stock spring (bent and unbent), Happy Harolds reduced spring pack, stock strain srew, shorthened strain screw, loose screw, stock hammer, "long" stock FP, "short" stock FP, etc, etc. In fact, I don't think I was really beginning to push the technology, in any of the combinations, until I pushed below about 5.5 lbs total trigger pull.

My goal today is to produce a gun that is 100% at about 4.5 lbs. Somewhere below 6 pounds the complexity curve makes a sharp turn skyward and every little piddling thing you never had to think about suddenly becomes important. Like so many things, that last 5-10% is the hardest part of the goal. The first 80% just about anybody can get by dropping in any of the widely available reduced spring kits.

I am testing the longer FP hypothesis because it makes sense to me that if you were nearing the absolute lower limit of energy required to light the primer, that having any energy transferred into the frame of the gun during the firing process would be a loss (waste) that would have to be made up somewhere else. I'm guessing that if both of my guns had the "long" stock FP I wouldn't have hit this bump (yet), but since my current project gun has a stock FP that is shorter than my other reliable gun (by something like .010") at similar trigger pull weights, I will eliminate that as a potential cause. I thought (briefly) about trying to get the longer FP from Smith, but they have disappointed me in the past on similar matters.

I anticipate that the EFP I have ordered will be longer still than the FP in my "A" gun which is 100% right at 5 lbs total trigger pull. Some of the length will possibly be overkill (waste), then again, the folks that already produce consistenly below where I am think there is some merit to a longer firing pin. I'm willing to consider that a gun with a 33% higher trigger pull (4.5 lbs versus 6.0 lbs) doesn't disprove the null hypothesis.

Huh ??

too many numbers and big words

Like I always say, if I can't dazzle them with brilliance, I can baffle them with bull....

[Carmoney]

Sorry Mike,

I was loopy with sleep deprivation. What I meant to say is that to ensure the revos would pass the CA drop test as a "safe" handgun approved for sale in CA. Sorry, my bad.

I'll let it slide this time.....just remember, some of my best friends are lawyers.

[Bones]

Here's the data in chronological order:

Friday

1) 10-14 as rec'd from Factory - no FTF with Winceshter or Federal Primers (100 rd each).

2) installed Wolff 14 lb rebound spring - no FTF with Winchester or Federal Primers (100 rd each)

3) install Wolff RP mainspring - 7% FTF with Federal 100 primers (100 rd), 20% FTF with Winchester primers (100 rd).

Saturday

4) polish contact surfaces - 3% FTF with Federal 100 primers (100 rd), 10% FTF with Winchester primers (100 rd).

5) installed C&S X-pin - no FTF with Federal primers (100 rd), 5% failure with Winchester primers (100rd)

Sunday

6) polish & reshape/point face of C&S firing pin, reinstall - no FTF with Federal or Winchester primers (200 rd each)

Craig

[Waltermitty]

Thanks for that info Craig (Bones)

I got my C&S pin Saturday. It's a full .025" longer than the FP that was in the gun. It made a dramatic difference in performance. I'll duplicate your polishing and reshaping to refine reliability.

My trigger pull is still above where I think I should be at about 5.5 lbs. But I must have 100% reliability first. Both of my 625's are at the same level, so I can live with that while I get more schooling.

[cking]

Here is what I found in my new 625-8 JM production gun. The firing from s&W is the same length as the CS. Factory is pointer. The CS has a longer relief cut. Both were finished nicely. CS is magnetic. Factory is not.

[bountyhunter]

I am testing the longer FP hypothesis because it makes sense to me that if you were nearing the absolute lower limit of energy required to light the primer, that having any energy transferred into the frame of the gun during the firing process would be a loss (waste)

The FP doesn't hit the frame when shooting because the primer stops it well before that. I know because I am cheap and use fired brass as "snap caps" for dry firing. Compare the depth of the primer hole with a round just fired and one you have dry fired a couple of hundred times. The latter will have the hole beaten in considerably farther into the primer face as the FP continues to try to get to full forward extension.... something it can not do when firing a live round because the primer stops it.

6) polish & reshape/point face of C&S firing pin, reinstall - no FTF with Federal or Winchester primers (200 rd each)

Craig

I think that filing the FP head to a point increases both the probability of ignition and the probability of piercing the primer. Edited April 18, 2006 by bountyhunter

[Randy Lee]

I am testing the longer FP hypothesis because it makes sense to me that if you were nearing the absolute lower limit of energy required to light the primer, that having any energy transferred into the frame of the gun during the firing process would be a loss (waste)

The FP doesn't hit the frame when shooting because the primer stops it well before that. I know because I am cheap and use fired brass as "snap caps" for dry firing. Compare the depth of the primer hole with a round just fired and one you have dry fired a couple of hundred times. The latter will have the hole beaten in considerably farther into the primer face as the FP continues to try to get to full forward extension.... something it can not do when firing a live round because the primer stops it.

6) polish & reshape/point face of C&S firing pin, reinstall - no FTF with Federal or Winchester primers (200 rd each)

Craig

I think that filing the FP head to a point increases both the probability of ignition and the probability of piercing the primer.

I believe the newer version "short" firing pins have a coned tip. As long as there is some radius to the tip, pierced primers should not occur.

[Waltermitty]

I am testing the longer FP hypothesis because it makes sense to me that if you were nearing the absolute lower limit of energy required to light the primer, that having any energy transferred into the frame of the gun during the firing process would be a loss (waste)

The FP doesn't hit the frame when shooting because the primer stops it well before that. I know because I am cheap and use fired brass as "snap caps" for dry firing. Compare the depth of the primer hole with a round just fired and one you have dry fired a couple of hundred times. The latter will have the hole beaten in considerably farther into the primer face as the FP continues to try to get to full forward extension.... something it can not do when firing a live round because the primer stops it.

6) polish & reshape/point face of C&S firing pin, reinstall - no FTF with Federal or Winchester primers (200 rd each)

Craig

I think that filing the FP head to a point increases both the probability of ignition and the probability of piercing the primer.

I don't think the firing pin is hitting the frame on any of the 625's I own, however, the hammer definately does stop on the frame with the shorter firing pins. I am trying to duplicate the situation you describe by going to the longer FP.

From a previous post:

"While the extension through the hole has been my way of describing the situation, my real concern is at the other end of the pin. If the face of the hammer is bottoming out on the frame before the pin can absorb/transfer the energy in the strike, then it will always have to be struck harder in the shorter contact time available. Likewise, if S&W has been trying to move stealthly towards an inertia type FP system, the strike will have to be very high indeed to get reliable ignition with such a small FP. I think the "Old design" creates an overlap period when the primer, FP, and hammer are all physically connected and energy is being transferred all the way from the hammer spring through to the primer anvil."

I'll avoid making the firing pin needle sharp. But I've burned thousands and thousands of rounds through Glocks without piercing any, and I certainly don't plan to put a point on even close to the Glock striker point.

[Carmoney]

Hey, can you guys please convince Jerry Miculek to start using a C&S extended firing pin??? I need all the help I can get.....

[Bones]

Yes, what Randy said.

The bearing/striking surface of the factory pin is more conical than the blunter C&S pin. I mis-spoke - by "reshape/point" I meant make it mimic the factory pin to my eye - not to a point but rather a much smaller radius. I have had no pierced primers. I agree a zero radius (i.e. truely pointed) pin could be problematic.

The C&S pin extends the same distance into the frame window as the hammer mounted pins on my 13s, 19s & 10s.

Craig

Edited April 18, 2006 by Bones

[Waltermitty]

Hey, can you guys please convince Jerry Miculek to start using a C&S extended firing pin??? I need all the help I can get.....

He's spanking you without taking a dremel tool to his hammers, what makes you think changing his firing pin will help you either?

I'll bet he can beat you with anything he picks up to shoot, with or without a C&S pin. I've got $100.00 right here says Jerry can beat you with a C&S firing pin. Anybody else want a piece of that? Maybe Jerry will swap the part himself if we put together a big enough pot and offer to split it with him.

Wanna make it $200.00 if he beats you with a Taurus?

[Bones]

I'd take Jerry to win with a bucket of golfballs and a busted sling shot.

[R112mercer]

Hey, can you guys please convince Jerry Miculek to start using a C&S extended firing pin??? I need all the help I can get.....

Maybe Jerry will swap the part himself if we put together a big enough pot and offer to split it with him.

That's no joke. At last year's Nationals Jerry was p.o.-ed about a miss he had early in the match. On the next day he disappeared for a while after shooting. When he came back I asked him if everything was OK. Jerry replied that there was some excess endshake in his gun and the cylinder was dragging against the forcing cone, which caused him to jerk the shot that missed. When I asked what he did about it he said he had went to take the endshake out. I was suprised he had the yoke stretcher there with him, his response was to ask me if I wanted any endshake taken out of my gun. I declined...

[Carmoney]

I'll bet he can beat you with anything he picks up to shoot, with or without a C&S pin.

Here's a fun trivia question for the gang....which other shooter has beaten Jerry Miculek at a major national match while both were shooting revolvers?? Anyone??

(Walt, please try not to use the word "spanked," it only gets Cliff all excited....)

[SIX SHOT]

Mike, I'm going to guess Bud Bond. He is an amazing shooter, his first shot out of the holster will humble almost anyone but Jerry. Having said that, I watched Mike Carmoney beat Bud Bond in a sudden death shoot-off at the Rocky Mountain Regional Championships last year, and it wasn't a fluke.

I was thumbing through an old Handgunner magazine from 1991 and I saw someone that looked familiar, at first I thought I had seen their picture hanging in the post office down town, but nope, it was Mike Carmoney! He had written an article on shooting bowling pins, very well done.

Dick

Edited April 19, 2006 by SIX SHOT

[Waltermitty]

I'll bet he can beat you with anything he picks up to shoot, with or without a C&S pin.

Here's a fun trivia question for the gang....which other shooter has beaten Jerry Miculek at a major national match while both were shooting revolvers?? Anyone??

(Walt, please try not to use the word "spanked," it only gets Cliff all excited....)

Ummm, I give up. Hey, I beat Bubber one time too, that doesn't mean I'll be dissing speed loaders any time soon...

The race doesn’t always go to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that is the way to bet [your money]. Place your bets, right here ladies and gentlemen, no way to lose. If Jerry wins you make alot of money, if Mike wins you make Carmoney!!

Perhaps Cliff will oil up his Barber's Strap too? What fun! In a stingy sort of way.

Hey, I think I've got my Randy hammered, C&S pinned gun running now. We'll see if Roger, Chris and Double Action put me in my place this weekend at the OKC ICORE on Saturday followed by the Old Fort Shootout on Sunday. I've got 400+ rounds loaded and moon clipped. Only the weak, infirm or insane would miss the shows going on this weekend.

I do love this game.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Waltermitty

[Carmoney]

Well, the real point I was trying to make is that even Jerry, who is undisputably the greatest wheelgunner of all time, past and present, would not be able to beat anybody with a revolver that had its firing pin stuck forward, hopelessly misshapen in its channel, preventing the cylinder from opening and closing correctly. (This was only one of my several bad experiences with the C&S extended pins before I finally swore them off.)

Walt, I'm gonna have a chance to finally shoot a major match this weekend (the Wisconsin Sectional)--my first of the 2006 season--so maybe that will snap me out of the cabin fever that's been causing me to post obnoxious comments about your favorite brand of firing pin. So I'll try to keep any controversial thoughts to myself in the meantime.

[Carmoney]

Mike, I'm going to guess Bud Bond. He is an amazing shooter, his first shot out of the holster will humble almost anyone but Jerry.

Dick, I'm not aware of Bud Bond ever taking Jerry down at a major national match, but nevertheless, Bud is unquestionably one of the best revolver guys in the game. Particularly in stand and shoot matches with no reloads on the clock (e.g. Steel Challenge, where I first saw him shoot), Bud is just awesome, and that scoop draw of his is astonishing to watch. I actually think Bud may be faster than Jerry to the first shot.

Bud's also a really great guy, and he's gone way out of his way to be considerate of me and Sam since we've gotten to know him over the past couple years--as have our many many other revolver-shooting friends here on the forum.

[Waltermitty]

Well, the real point I was trying to make is that even Jerry, who is undisputably the greatest wheelgunner of all time, past and present, would not be able to beat anybody with a revolver that had its firing pin stuck forward, hopelessly misshapen in its channel, preventing the cylinder from opening and closing correctly. (This was only one of my several bad experiences with the C&S extended pins before I finally swore them off.)

Walt, I'm gonna have a chance to finally shoot a major match this weekend (the Wisconsin Sectional)--my first of the 2006 season--so maybe that will snap me out of the cabin fever that's been causing me to post obnoxious comments about your favorite brand of firing pin. So I'll try to keep any controversial thoughts to myself in the meantime.

No harm no foul, although it would be a stretch to say the C&S is my favorite FP. Until I realized the S&W FP length was a "reference dimension only", subject to variation minus .010", I had no need for anything but stock parts either.

When Randy gets his to market, I'll buy one of those...unless in the meantime somebody has another suggestion for a part with a predictable set of dimensions I can order now.

Good luck at the Cheese Head Open and eat some, er, cheese for the rest of us.

[pskys2]

Answer to Mike Carmoney's Trivia Question.

I remember seeing in a previous post where a youngster from the east coast traveled to the Second Chance Pin Shoot in the '80's and whipped up on the Cajun Speed Demon.

Let me see, what was his name? He is a 2nd Chance Master Blaster, who "Thinks" he has friends who are lawyers.

Mike CARMONEY!

Yea, that's the ticket!

You didn't by chance save the results that year? By how much did you whip up on him?