more USPSA Production debate

[Flexmoney]

...removing steel from inside the slide to lighten it. There's a large area opposite the extractor where this can be performed.

Certainly an illegal modification for USPSA Production division.

[j2fast]

...removing steel from inside the slide to lighten it. There's a large area opposite the extractor where this can be performed.

Certainly an illegal modification for USPSA Production division.

One would think but I emailed JA back in Nov on this topic because someone else brought it up. I don't know if I should copy the whole email into the thread but the basic response was that it isn't specifically listed as something you can't do. Also since it's internal and we don't tear guns down, who would know. I definitely summarized but he did not come out and say it was explictly illegal.

Nothing like further clouding muddy waters.....

EDIT: typos

Edited April 6, 2006 by j2fast

[Bigbadaboom]

...removing steel from inside the slide to lighten it. There's a large area opposite the extractor where this can be performed.

Certainly an illegal modification for USPSA Production division.

No it's not. No "External" modification involved. 2 oz.'s "over" factory weight is the limitation. There is nothing stated about going too light. the only place that I may find a rules issue is with a tungsten guide rod. I'll e-mail J.A. about it if it doesn't put the gun over weight anyway. I would say that it falls under "action work to enhance reliability" without the utilization of after market parts or external mods because the gun was not reliable with a legal, production division minor load prior to doing the work.

I've never shot this gun in production division since having the slide lightened.

Edited April 6, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[Flexmoney]

No it's not.

Is to.

[Bigbadaboom]

No it's not.

Is to.

OH! I get it now. It's stemming from other topics. I may be slow but I sure ain't no Genius.

[Flexmoney]

No...sorry for any confusion. I just didn't want to drift this thread too far. But, I do not believe that internal lightening of the slide is a legal modification for USPSA Production division (if you'd like to further discuss that, we will need a new thread).

[David Olhasso]

in USPSA all INTERNAL modifications are ALLOWED so long as the external appearance of the gun does not change and the weight of the gun does not change +- 2oz Period.

So, Barrels, welding, milling, guide rods, trigger components, springs, etc, etc are all legal modifications so long as the above is satisfied.

[Flexmoney]

That is just not true. Or, at least, not how the rule is written (maybe people have been getting away with it).

It reads that there are very few modifications allowed...and it goes on to provide a list/example of those few allowed mods. Within that list, they state that there are no external mods allowed...that doesn't mean that all internal mods are therefore OK.

Of the internal mods that are allowed, "action work" is included.

I'd like to think that "action work" covers a lot of bases. Moving parts of the "action"...like springs, recoil assembly, and internal trigger parts and such. But, I can't make the leap that lightening of the slide is legal.

[j2fast]

Even though I got the response from JA (my post above) I've got to agree with Flexmoney. I almost hate to use the term but I just don't see how slide lightening is in the "spirt" of the production division. Definitely don't see how it could possibly "enhance reliability".

Some might say that I'm the pot calling the kettle black since I've got melted in bo-mars on my XD but there's a ruling that specifically allows that mod.

[Bigbadaboom]

I asked John about this back when I asked him about hard chroming my slide (which, along with another guy asking about his Glock, caused a ruling) and he stated that internal work is allowed to improve/enhance reliability. The slide is a huge part of the action if not the primary part. It chambers the round, it extracts the casing, it carries the striker/firing pin etc. etc. My gun would not function when my P.F. dropped below 147 before I lightened the slide. This is the only reason that I lightened the slide. Therefore I did it to enhance/improve reliability. It was done totally in the spirit of the division because the division is scored "Minor".

David, the rule states that the gun cannot exceed 2 oz.'s over factory weight. It states nothing about exceeding 2 oz.'s below factory weight.

Edited April 6, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[Flexmoney]

Maybe I could mill a channel in the spring tunnel area on the inside of my dust cover...and fill it with lead?

[Matthew_Mink]

As long as its not external and doesn't go over 2oz over factory weight.

[Bigbadaboom]

Maybe I could mill a channel in the sping tunnel area on the inside of my dust cover...and fill it with lead?

Sure, but my lightened slide trumps your weighted frame.

I some places 2oz.'s is a felony.

[RIIID]

In the OLD rule book lightening a slide was prohibited. In the current rule book that rule was removed. Several BOD members said it was removed on purpose and not left out by mistake. Mill away, nothing like a pile of chips on the shop floor.

Rich

[2gun]

Off topic a little.. How about the THE Accesories Extended Race Tungsten Guiderod for the Glock 34 in production? It extends past underneath to the barrel but not all the way out. Would that be considered internal ? Dave S. uses it on his limited gun but can you use it in production?

[GeorgeInNePa]

Off topic a little.. How about the THE Accesories Extended Race Tungsten Guiderod for the Glock 34 in production? It extends past underneath to the barrel but not all the way out. Would that be considered internal ? Dave S. uses it on his limited gun but can you use it in production?

16) Maximum weight? Yes, 2 ounces over factory specified

21.4) Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is allowed.

[Jake Di Vita]

Whenever we are challenged we always ask for a ruling in the rulebook specifically citing what you are violating. If no one says you can't - you can.

I've been trying but I can't find anything that says you can't internally lighten a slide on a Production gun.

[JFD]

I'm not sure about the "spirit" of any rules or division, but I'd swear Production was introduced as a means to help grow the sport. I could most certainly be wrong since the BOD definitely didn't back up this intent with the rulebook.

Is the purpose here to guarantee that there's no divison in USPSA where non-members will believe they can get started without spending a small fortune on the gun? Right or wrong, the worse thing (for recruiting) about USPSA is the rampant idea that you need to spend $XXXX.00 to get started.

Now we need ANOTHER division to grow the sport. Maybe the provisional "SHOOT A STOCK FREAKING GUN DAMNIT" division where current members aren't allowed. Grip tape would be the only allowed change.

Sorry in advance, but this and the Vanek trigger thread have been specifically mentioned by 2 people I've been trying to recruit lately as a reason they won't even try USPSA. Benos forum threads are mentioned in every shooting web site I've ever seen, so these discussions definitely don't stay "in the family".

I don't shoot Production and I never will, but I'm ready to give up on my recruiting efforts.

[Vlad]

And people keep on yelling at me when I keep on saying we need to tighten up the rules for production. No one seems to want to let go of their super wiz bang additions, and no one wants to explain to me why they want to shoot production if all they want it do modify their gun.

I'm thinking I might start shooting revolver. Sure as hell less of a mess. Only one competitive gun and no one can beat Jerry so we would all just shoot for fun.

[DougCarden]

JFD, no offense meant, but reading internet chatter probably aint the reason that the people you are trying to recruit to USPSA wont shoot......

I dont like the issues that have been raised either, but I just want to shoot, so give me simple stable rules and I will follow them and shoot, period.

DougC

[Gary Stevens]

Vlad I think it is called competition. I think those of us who paly this game are all competitors to one extent or another, it is in our spirit. Games that keep score have a habit of sparking competiton among its members. It is this competition that keeps exploring the outerlimits of the rules. People will always be able to find reasons why they don't do something, such as shoot IPSC/USPSA. Those that have the desire will always find a way to step up to the challenge.

Gary

Edited April 14, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[Flexmoney]

Those that have the desire will always find a way to step up to the challenge.

That...or go shoot somewhere else.

[GeorgeInNePa]

I'm not sure about the "spirit" of any rules or division, but I'd swear Production was introduced as a means to help grow the sport. I could most certainly be wrong since the BOD definitely didn't back up this intent with the rulebook.

Is the purpose here to guarantee that there's no divison in USPSA where non-members will believe they can get started without spending a small fortune on the gun? Right or wrong, the worse thing (for recruiting) about USPSA is the rampant idea that you need to spend $XXXX.00 to get started.

Now we need ANOTHER division to grow the sport. Maybe the provisional "SHOOT A STOCK FREAKING GUN DAMNIT" division where current members aren't allowed. Grip tape would be the only allowed change.

Sorry in advance, but this and the Vanek trigger thread have been specifically mentioned by 2 people I've been trying to recruit lately as a reason they won't even try USPSA. Benos forum threads are mentioned in every shooting web site I've ever seen, so these discussions definitely don't stay "in the family".

I don't shoot Production and I never will, but I'm ready to give up on my recruiting efforts.

Gary's sig line says it all:

Let's face it, our sport is not for everyone. It is sometimes easier to make excuses than it is to load and make ready.

[Gary Stevens]

I don't think so Flex. Those who want to always do, those who don't will find a way to quit regardless of what shooting sport, bowling, tennis, etc. No matter where they go they will always find something not to their liking and decide to quit again. When I blew my ACL out, I taped that knee up and limped around shooting matches and even the Nationals. I pretty well sucked at it, but I kept trying. Why, because I had the desire. Some have it, some don't. That is the way it has always been and probably always will be.

Gary

[Vlad]

I'm confused. Am I to understand that making every division a racegun division is just the way it is? I understand people pushing the envelope, both in the tech direction and rule direction. What I dont get is people milling off chunks of their slide and replacing their entire trigger group and being proud that they shoot "production". I get that someone is always going to want to try different sights or change the length of their mag button between a couple of factory versions, but removing chunks of slide? And when someone figure out that they might be able to do that, why doesn't the BOD and NROI step in and either deny such a request or fix the friking rules not to allow for it? Just because someone might loose some of their "investment"?