Shooting On The Move

[iweiny]

I know this has been discussed but I thought I would start a topic specifically about when shooting on the move is worth it.

The situation this last weekend was:

3 arrays (3 paper, 2 paper, 3 paper)

Shoot Array 1 from Box A only

Shoot Array 2 from Area between Box A and B only (Fault line running from the front of A to the rear of B.)

Shoot Array 3 from Box B only.

Basically all the targets in Array 1 and 2 were in a line with Box A about 15yrds back and B about 3-5 yards back. Array 2 was a bit further back but really just 1 or 2 yards. B was also about 3-5 yards to the right of A. So you were moving diagnaly from A to B.

I decided to shoot from A, shoot the center array on the move between the boxes and then finish in B. Most other people ran up and shot the center array from just behind Box B and then steped into B for the final array. Was shooting on the move a good plan?

Basically when do you decide that shooting on the move is a good thing? Obviously you need to know you can make the shots. But I have been practicing and I think I can make a 10-15yrd full paper or steel on the move. I think this is a pretty good skill but I have to say I don't know that I use it well.

Thanks,

Ira

[Jake Di Vita]

I would probably opt to not shoot a 15 yard target on the move. I also almost never engage steel on the move (there are a few exceptions).

10 yards and closer....depends on the target.

[Flexmoney]

Aside from it being another non-freestyle (illegal?) stage...

I probably would have shot the 2nd array from just behind "B", then stepped into "B" for the final array.

15y paper on the move is tough. I don't mind shooting some steel on the move if the movement is forward or backward. Lateral movement, I'd have to take a look. If there is a garden of steel, I'd be more likely to stop and mow.

[38superman]

I agree with Jake for the most part.

Depends on how you are moving

I will take targets on the run under 5 yds.

Out to ten while walking.

Paper or steel out to fifteen but only at a slow lateral walk.

Taking a target on the move is always preferable to standing flat footed, if you can do it.

Only you can judge your comfort factor on how to move, and how fast to move according to the range and type of target.

Tls

Edited March 27, 2006 by tlshores

[wide45]

Shoot the array from box A, run most of the way to box B. Shoot the next array as you cover the last steps. Shoot the last array as you step in box B. If a reload is needed, do it leaving box A

Closer=better points faster

[HSMITH]

16 shots needed, 20 in the gun for me in that situation.....

Tempting for sure to blast as you move. In this situation I like the solution to shoot the A array, run from A to B, put one foot in the box B and shoot the middle array and then lift the other foot into B starting to shoot the last array just as soon as the foot outside the box lifts clear of the ground. No shooting on the move and not one step more than is necessary.

[LPatterson]

16 shots needed, 20 in the gun for me in that situation.....

Tempting for sure to blast as you move. In this situation I like the solution to shoot the A array, run from A to B, put one foot in the box B and shoot the middle array and then lift the other foot into B starting to shoot the last array just as soon as the foot outside the box lifts clear of the ground. No shooting on the move and not one step more than is necessary.

The stage procedure is written to Shoot Array 2 from Area between Box A and B only, so putting a foot in Box B while shooting at Array 2 would get you some procederal penalties per 10.2.1. Personally I would give you 1 procederal penalty because I don't see that step as a significant advantage.

[XRe]

The stage procedure is written to Shoot Array 2 from Area between Box A and B only, so putting a foot in Box B while shooting at Array 2 would get you some procederal penalties per 10.2.1. Personally I would give you 1 procederal penalty because I don't see that step as a significant advantage.

Slight drift. You are either in a box, or not in a box. There's no "in between" state where you're neither in the box nor not in the box. So, if you are touching the ground outside a box, you are determined to not be in that box. How can you assess a penalty for someone in this situation?? If he shot the array at box A with one foot outside the box, and the array at B with one foot outside the box, would you penalize??? You can't do *both*. One foot in B and one foot outside is outside B, and therefore no penalty.

[LPatterson]

The stage procedure is written to Shoot Array 2 from Area between Box A and B only, so putting a foot in Box B while shooting at Array 2 would get you some procederal penalties per 10.2.1. Personally I would give you 1 procederal penalty because I don't see that step as a significant advantage.

Slight drift. You are either in a box, or not in a box. There's no "in between" state where you're neither in the box nor not in the box. So, if you are touching the ground outside a box, you are determined to not be in that box. How can you assess a penalty for someone in this situation?? If he shot the array at box A with one foot outside the box, and the array at B with one foot outside the box, would you penalize??? You can't do *both*. One foot in B and one foot outside is outside B, and therefore no penalty.

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground beyond a Fault or Charge Line will receive 1 procedural penalty. I would give you 2 procedural penalties based on the rule as the stage procedure was:

Shoot Array 1 from Box A only

Shoot Array 2 from Area between Box A and B only (Fault line running from the front of A to the rear of B.)

Shoot Array 3 from Box B only.

Only is the prime word.

[Steve Anderson]

Shooting on the move is desirable when you can save time without dropping points.

If we can develop the confidence to shoot A's on open targets out to 15 yards, we can save some time and not drop points.

The thing to remember is that shooting on the move is not flinging hopers at a run...it's just shooting without the benefit of standing still. Not that big a deal. They key is confidence at calling the shoots and not accepting hopers.

During a class with Chris Tillley, I was shooting 12 yard partials on the move with no trouble at all, using the "Tilley Duckwalk Turret" stance.

I'm still working on the Tilley "Lateral Lobster" move...

[EricW]

All I know is that the only way I could answer this question for myself was with a timer and a calculator (for HF's on paper). The answers were not what I thought they were. And the answers for me and Steve surely aren't the same.

[XRe]

Shoot Array 2 from Area between Box A and B only (Fault line running from the front of A to the rear of B.)

...

...

Only is the prime word.

Believe me, I know all about the infamous only

I missed the bit about there being a defined Area between boxes. That *does* provide the opportunity to be in neither the area or the box by having a foot in each....

[iweiny]

Thanks for all the replies. I too think that if I can make a shot on the move it would be better than stoping and starting again... That is why I have worked hard to develop my shooting on the move. For the 2 center targets my hits were 3A, 1C with 4 shots fired. I think the following is where I messed up:

Shoot the array from box A, run most of the way to box B. Shoot the next array as you cover the last steps. Shoot the last array as you step in box B. If a reload is needed, do it leaving box A

Closer=better points faster

I was shooting L10 and I took the middle targets first and then reloaded. I should have reloaded right out of box A. I think this was my mistake and the reason I was about 1sec off "the pace". (The pace meaning other shooters who I think are about my skill level and also shooting L10 or production so they had to do a reload.) Perhaps it is not my shooting on the move which is the problem but my stage break down. <sigh>

Thanks for letting me think out loud,

Ira

PS as far as the legality of the stage... No one there wanted to stand in the rain and nail baracades... We were all just happy to shoot.

[Jake Di Vita]

Also I'd like to add that shooting on the move in Production beyond 7 or 10 yards is almost always a bad idea.

[iweiny]

Also I'd like to add that shooting on the move in Production beyond 7 or 10 yards is almost always a bad idea.

Stupid question: why?

[XRe]

Stupid question: why?

Points, man! Points!!!

In Production, you're shooting minor, period. Reducing risk of Ds (most importantly) and Cs is even more important in Production....

[iweiny]

Stupid question: why?

Points, man! Points!!!

In Production, you're shooting minor, period. Reducing risk of Ds (most importantly) and Cs is even more important in Production....

Oh yea... I never think of hitting anything but A's...

[Ron Ankeny]

If I read this right, it was only 3-5 yards from Box A to Box B? If that's correct, I would shoot the Box A array, step out and shoot the middle array as soon as legal without stopping my momentum, stab in a reload, then shoot the last array as soon as I stepped into Box B. Chances are, the only targets I would shoot without leaning, stepping, setting a foot down, etc., would be the first two targets and the last target.

Now for even more thread drift. How does one go about handing out procedural penalties for an illegal stage? Don't answer that.

[Jasonub]

usually your splits and transitions are slower while SOTM. I like max (hehe) dont shoot on the move much unless the targets are close and i can assure A's on it.

I would work on shooting while arriving and shooting while leaving a position than SOTM

[Lurper]

The stage procedure is written to Shoot Array 2 from Area between Box A and B only, so putting a foot in Box B while shooting at Array 2 would get you some procederal penalties per 10.2.1. Personally I would give you 1 procederal penalty because I don't see that step as a significant advantage.

Slight drift. You are either in a box, or not in a box. There's no "in between" state where you're neither in the box nor not in the box. So, if you are touching the ground outside a box, you are determined to not be in that box. How can you assess a penalty for someone in this situation?? If he shot the array at box A with one foot outside the box, and the array at B with one foot outside the box, would you penalize??? You can't do *both*. One foot in B and one foot outside is outside B, and therefore no penalty.

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground beyond a Fault or Charge Line will receive 1 procedural penalty. I would give you 2 procedural penalties based on the rule as the stage procedure was:

Shoot Array 1 from Box A only

Shoot Array 2 from Area between Box A and B only (Fault line running from the front of A to the rear of B.)

Shoot Array 3 from Box B only.

Only is the prime word.

FWIW, you could shoot array 2 with one foot in box A and not incur a penalty since the fault line runs from the front of A to the rear of B. The word only has no effect here. It applies to box B because in order to put a foot in box B your foot would be in front of the fault line.

I would consider shooting the first array while in box A, putting one foot outside and shooting the 2nd then reload on the move to B and engage the final array from B. Without actually seeing the layout, I can't say whether it would pay off or not.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Lurper

[SteveZ]

Slight drift. You are either in a box, or not in a box. There's no "in between" state where you're neither in the box nor not in the box.

I used to think this way too...but its wrong. There are actually three states; 1) in the box, 2) not in the box and the last one 3) not in or out of the box.

Now before you think I'm from some other time continuum space warp. Let me explain using an example. You've got a Box A and an area outside the box (we'll call that Area 'B'). If you have both feet in Box A, you are in Box A. If you have both feet outside of Box A, you are outside Box A and IN Area 'B'. If you have one foot in Box A and one foot in Area B, you are faulting Box A AND Area 'B' at the same time...hence you are neither in Box A or out of Box A (also it follows, you are neither in Area 'B' or out of Area 'B').

Amidon addressed in Front Sight a couple years ago.

I missed the bit about there being a defined Area between boxes. That *does* provide the opportunity to be in neither the area or the box by having a foot in each....

oops...nevermind the above...you already caught that part about the "area" between the two boxes.

Edited March 29, 2006 by SteveZ

[Jim Norman]

Remember, Only one part of one foot need be touching the ground on the "Wrong" side of the squared fault line we call a box for you to be dinged!

I can run to a box, and as soon as my first foot touches down AND my trailing foot leaves the ground, I am IN the box.

Except at a certain match in NY State where both feet had to be solidly planted prior to you being allowed to shoot.

Jim Norman