Rounding Out My Collection, 'need' An Esp

[bp78]

I've been shooting IDPA matches pretty regularly and do fairly well with my Sig P228 9mm in SSP. It's far from an ideal game gun but it works for me. I also have a Kimber CDP .45 that I'll try in the CDP division once I get some more practice on it.

I'm in the processes of rounding out my collection for an ESP but also an AR and shotgun since shooting my first 3gun match recently. Given the shopping list with required holster, magazines, etc, funds are slightly constrained for each. (adding all three to the safe before i get married soon )

I've never been a Glock fan although I can't say I've had any trouble shooting the few I've tried. My biggest debate at the moment is between a 9mm and .40. My USPSA buddy gives me grief about shooting the 9mm. Most of the local matches are IDPA. I don't reload and don't have the time to even entertain the idea. A range trip a week is already hard enough to work in now.

What will a .40 buy me in competitions outside of IDPA (seems no good reason for .40 in IDPA)?

Considering the following so far:

Glock 35

+ Readily available and priced right.

+ Cheap magazines & parts.

- Grip angle unlike anything else i shoot.

- Kaboom-hype on the mind.

(?) 9mm conversion barrels available

CZ 75 SA 9mm

+ Points well for me & feels closer to my 1911s

+ Priced right.

- Somewhat rare in competition.

(?) Any 9mm/.40 convertable models?

1911 in 9mm

+ Just like my 1911s

-- pretty much double the cost of the other two options.

[AikiDale]

Since you have 9mm and .45 and want, uh, 'need' to round out your collection I would go with a .40, either the Glock or CZ 75 SA. You need .40 caliber to make major power factor in Limited or Limited 10 divisions; this makes a difference in scoring unless you only shoot A zone hits.

My honest suggestion would be to keep what you've got, and shoot your .45 in CDP and either the new Single Stack division using the same gear you use for CDP, or, get some 10 round mags and shoot it in Limited 10. Use the money you save to buy ammo and practice.

The 40 Glock will allow you to shoot ESP, Limited, Limited 10 and Production. Production is only scored minor so the extra kick of factory major won't help with scoring here but you can still buy WWB at Wally World for relatively inexpensive ammo.

You do not need another gun. I do not need a custom iron sighted .38 Supercomp just for

steel matches either. But I'm considering having one built, uh, just to round out my collection...

[dirtypool40]

What will a .40 buy me in competitions outside of IDPA (seems no good reason for .40 in IDPA)?

1911 in 9mm

+ Just like my 1911s

-- pretty much double the cost of the other two options.

You're right, meaning no offense to IDPA, I still shoot it, but there is not a compelling reason to own a .40 if you are a dedicated IDPA'er. Lots of us think the most popular LEO and CCW cartridge is the best all around play and carry cartridge out there, but as the rules are now, there isn't really a reason to have one in IDPA when you can shoot factory 9mm for so much less hassle.

As to a 9mm 1911 being double a Glock or CZ, check that out carefully before you're so certain. Springfield makes a 9mm full size, and I'm sure Kimber does too. Real money may be a couple hundred more than a stock Glock, I'm guessing around $700, but if you're a 1911 guy, complete the stable with a 9mm instead of switching to GLock or CZ.

Also, just one guy's opinion, but in ESP you are more likely to be competitive with a 1911, esp if that's what you already shoot. Yes, before the arrows start flying, I know it's the indian, but by most accounts a 9mm 1911 is about the easiest gun out there to shoot well.

Oh, and when you get it, you're required to post pics. good luck...

[Guy Neill]

For the use you describe, the 9mm looks like the best way to go.

Guy

[JakeMartens]

Go for one of these:

http://www.cz-usa.com/01.detail.php?id=69

I think it is IDPA legal for ESP, might be too heavy not sure, but would be a good gun for USPSA Limited without a huge investment. There is also a Bo-mar adjustable that replaces the fixed facotry sight. I have seen these for sale for around $925-950.

If you go the 9mm route for ESP and it is a single action 1911 style gun you can use it in USPSA Single Stack shooting minor, or not as competitive at minor scoring in Limited/L10.

Of course it can be done, Matt Mink just recently made GM in Limited using a CZ SP01 in 9mm scoring minor.

[bp78]

Need is indeed a subjective word.

Springfield does make a rather inexpensive 9mm 1911 but I've only seen 9 round magazines for it. Any higher cap magazines exist for it and still IDPA legal?

The cheapest double stack 9mm 1911 seems to be $1500 or more for an STI.

For some reason I doubt the CZ75 TS would be legal for IDPA, bit if so, does it use the same magazines as other 75's?

The CZ75TS is listed at 2.8lbs / 44.8oz. I believe the IDPA ESP cap is 43oz. I have shot a nicely tuned CZ75 SA and enjoyed it. (it weighs in at a hefty 35.2oz stock)

Edited March 13, 2006 by bp78

[Merlin Orr]

My choice.

[Middle Man]

I do enjoy my CZ 75 SA 9mm it is quite the game-ish ESP gun

OTH, one of the new 75 SP01 Shadow's would round out my collection nicely....

Edited March 13, 2006 by Middle Man

[Fireant]

You can also look for an armscore 9mm double stack. They can be found for about $500 and use para mags. My gun(s) of choice right now are my STI trojan and Eagle both in .40. I reload and shoot USPSA more often though. If not reloading is holding you back, there are several companies that sell comercial reloads just for the gun games at a fair price.

[Nemo]

Have you considered the Springfield XD? Although I don't know where it falls in IDPA it's an inexpensive platform with the "right" grip to bore angle and there's "Canyon Creek Rich" to work magic on them.

To round out your collection any one pistol would do; to take your shooting to the next level in an economic way get a reloading machine.

$0.02

[bp78]

Have you considered the Springfield XD? Although I don't know where it falls in IDPA

The xD falls in the ESP category putting it up against hi-cap 1911s, modified glocks, and other single action autos. Springfield marketing it as SA knocked it out of the SSP division.

[andrewcolglazier]

I'm in the processes of rounding out my collection for an ESP

I've never been a Glock fan although I can't say I've had any trouble shooting the few I've tried. My biggest debate at the moment is between a 9mm and .40. My USPSA buddy gives me grief about shooting the 9mm. Most of the local matches are IDPA. I don't reload and don't have the time to even entertain the idea. A range trip a week is already hard enough to work in now.

What will a .40 buy me in competitions outside of IDPA (seems no good reason for .40 in IDPA)?

Considering the following so far:

CZ 75 SA 9mm

+ Points well for me & feels closer to my 1911s

+ Priced right.

- Somewhat rare in competition.

(?) Any 9mm/.40 convertable models?

1911 in 9mm

+ Just like my 1911s

-- pretty much double the cost of the other two options.

I trimmed out a little of your post just for space.

For a primo IDPA ESP gun, asuming your don't reload and won't be shooting USPSA any time soon.....

I suggest the CZSA in 9mm. I have one, and it is a great gun. Matt Mink did a trigger job on it, and it runs about 1.5-2 lbs trigger pull. I had adjustable sights put on it. The pistol is a double stack, so reloads are faster. It has an ambidextrous safety, and it is accurate! The only downside is it doesn't like Blazer aluminum. It eats everything else.

It is far, far cheaper than a 9mm 1911, and it has higher capacity. I really like mine!

However... if you have any intent to shoot USPSA at all, or intend to take up reloading, I suggest you either purchase the CZSA in .40, or you get the Glock 35.

Andy C.

[aclundwall]

Here are my humble thoughts....

My wife and I both were shooting CDP using 1911's. She wimped out, and wanted a 9mm, so I bought her a Springfield Loaded. On the days she didn't compete, I shot it. It was so much fun, that I wimped out and built another one. Both of mine run 100%, with any ammo I've used. You can buy the Springfield Loaded 9mm at gun shows around here for around $650 pretty regularly. If you already have a 1911 for CDP, then you can use the same holster and mag pouches for a 1911 in ESP.

I use Springfield 9mm mags, which hold 9 rounds. I know it sounds strange, but that's more often than not an advantage in IDPA. Because I start with an even number of rounds (9+1), and most paper gets two hits, I usually don't have to reload and re-engage with one more round on the same bad guy. Sometimes it's not an advantage, but it is very rarely ever a DIS-advantage.

If you shoot a .40 in ESP, using factory ammo, you're handicapping yourself before you even start, because factory .40 is way above the 125 PF required for ESP. After a bit, you're going to be tempted to start reloading, so that you can take advantage of that lower required PF. But, with a 9mm, factory ammo is close enough to the low end of the PF to remove this temptation. And, no matter how you slice it, if you're shooting factory ammo, 9mm is cheaper than .40.

The only advantage I see for the .40 in this scenario is if you eventually want to shoot USPSA with it, in perhaps the SS or L10 divisions. You can make major with the .40, but not with a 9mm.

Only thing to watch for is this... a 9mm 1911 can go over the 43oz limit if you're not careful, cause the barrel is usually pretty heavy. My new one is 42.2 oz with an empty mag and a steel S&A magwell. If the slide didn't have a flat top, it would be over weight.

Good luck with your decision

Art

[ihatepickles]

The CZ75-SAs are nice guns for ESP, available in 9mm or .40S&W.

You can download .40S&W to very peaceful levels, in fact I feel that 125 PF .40 is softer than 125 PF 9mm. I'm not sure why, but it feels softer to me.

A 9mm is cheaper to shoot and still feels supersoft in an all steel gun.

[DrKyle1]

Umm... I'm a Glock fan I shoot my G35 in SSP and my G34 in ESP. I went w/ the G35 first as I also shoot USPSA and wanted to have the option of shooting Ltd10 or production. I love it. For ESP the glock is hard to beat if you reload - my 40 shoots softer than my 9 in the light glocks. A 40 using factory ammo is not going to get you anything to hang on the wall at a major match when you are competing w/ those that reload. If you do go w/ the G35 put a mag well on it and steel guide rod. Also don't forget about the para 40's they shoot very nice and the heavier gun handles the factory ammo well.

[bp78]

If you do go w/ the G35 put a mag well on it and steel guide rod.

Don't think steel guide rods or any weight-addition mods fly in IDPA.

[Chills1994]

I was going to suggest a Beretta, either a 92 or 96, or their Elite models for ESP, but I think the downside for any of the most common Beretta models in ESP is that you will have to start them with the hammer down in ESP.

If you really really look, you might find some Beretta models out there with a frame mounted safety, where you could start out cocked and locked. Like the 92/96 Combats. Or the 92/96 Steel models which are all shiney stainless steel guns, made in Italy with a price tag around 1,500 smackers.

My other very inexpensive suggestion is an all stainless matte finished Taurus clone of the 92/96 line. A local gun shop has two of them, both have machined integral light rails. So being all stainless frame and slide and having the light rail, there is a lot of weight up front. So it should be a real flat shooter. IIRC both guns are in 9mm. I don't think they were ever made in .40. They are priced reasonably around $400. It might be just the perfect combination of low price and weight for an ideal gamer gun in IDPA.

The regular alloy framed Taurus clones with the frame mounted safety/decocker would let you shoot in either SSP or ESP.

I don't think Taurus made the all stainless versions in high enough numbers to let you shoot them in SSP. At least not at a major match, if someone was really paying attention.

The other downside to a Taurus, is the name. It just doesn't have the sex appeal that the Glock or CZ name has. Then gunsmithability and after market gizmo add ons aren't there either. Not like you would find for 1911's or Glocks.

The WWB .40 S & W 165 grainers I chrono'd, PF'd around 172.5. So way over the power floor of 125 for ESP and SSP.

The flip side to that has already been mentioned. If you want to expand into IPSC, having a .40 allows you to safely make major (with factory ammo, since you don't reload, yet) giving you more divisions to shoot in IPSC. Limited 10, Limited, and SS ? for the major PF. Then there is always the production division, where everything is scored minor anyway.

In the beginning, IMO, ESP was supposed to be a home to shoot tricked out 1911's in 9 and 40. It seems like Glocks are taking over everywhere, except for the revolver divisions, of course.

(Glocks are like the Borg in Star Trek, "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.")

As for a steel guide rod in a G35 in ESP, you'd have to look at the rule book to be sure.

My gut tells me that pretty much anything goes in ESP, with the exception of a few very explicitly spelled out banned modifications, like tungsten guide rods, which IIRC is banned in all divisions.

Me, if it came down to a CZ or a Glock in ESP, I'd go with the CZ. I just like an all metal gun.

And could I get that CZ in stainless or hard chrome?

Remember to post pics whatever you decide

Edited April 6, 2006 by Chills1994

[bp78]

Remember to post pics whatever you decide

I ordered the Armscor 1911-A2 wide body, a copy of the Para Ord P18 which seems to have recieved some pretty consistent reviews. Single action double stack 1911 in 9mm. I've seen others who've also added an extra slide/top end and magazines to also have a .40 IPSC limited gun. I'll post photos when I get it.

[tightloop]

If you want to shoot with the big dawgs, get a 1911 based 9mm....

[bp78]

Thanks for all the advice in the thread. My new 1911 came in last week.

For $478 it arrived new, with one 17rd magazine, in a black plastic case along with a manual, lock, and casing for bureaucrats. It’s essentially a Para Ordance P18 copy, a typical double stack 1911 in 9mm with ambi safety, a ramped barrel and a fair set of steel sights (all black). The slide to frame fit was decent although not as tight as my Kimber Custom CDP .45. The trigger was much better than I suspected. This was a hard model to find since they haven’t been imported for the last year. After breaking mine down I found some light surface rust on some of the unfinished areas which I suspect is from this one sitting in a SC smith’s inventory for a while. It cleaned right up, no pitting or any concerns about it. The black matte finish is consistent and clean. The FLGR is a bit longer than it should be in my opinion which makes reassembly a bit of a pain. I’ll probably file a mm off the end of it so the bushing can rotate over it.

I ordered both a nickel and blued MecGar magazine from MidwayUSA. The OEM magazine shipped with it is clearly a blued MecGar otherwise it’s one heck of a knockoff. The magazine release is overly stiff with any rounds in the magazine, requiring you to support the bottom of the mag to eject a load magazine. I’m guessing I’ll have to smooth that up as my first todo.

Between an IDPA qualifier and house stuff this weekend I only had a chance to stop by a range for an hour. I put 150 rounds through it and it seems plenty accurate enough. The sights are pretty nice although I was planning on switching them out for a fiber optic from sight and adjustable rear… jury is still out if I’ll go through with that swap. I was playing with my grip some and made the mistake of letting my right thumb ride the slide release twice, otherwise the all three mags put it into slide lock after the last round. Not going into slide lock was a concern I’d read from several Para P18 owners. Recoil is light as expected for a heavy steel 1911 in 9mm. My fiancé who never shoots anything other than.22lr pistols by choice was actually grabbing magazines for this one while on the range. That’s not to say it recoils as little as a .22 but it’s certainly less blasty than my sig p228 that she doesn’t care to shoot. The pistol was reliable for the start of the break in, I did have a pair of FTEs but I’m fairly sure that was my fault. My fiancé also has a talent for limp wristing just about anything including glocks and my p230. However she didn’t have any failures shooting the armscor & it went to slide lock as expected on every magazine.

All in all, I feel like it’s an excellent bargain for a IDPA ESP gun. I’ll smooth out the mag release and think about a new set of sights and perhaps a magwell. I’m still adjusting my grip but I’ve thought about replacing the safety with a single sided one that’s a bit wider. The magazines are also a very reasonable $20/each.

[jmorris]

Watch the weight, as Art pointed out. I believe the Para P18 LTD got kicked out of SSP because of its heft. Another good point is the fact 9mm 1911 have 9 round magazines. If you have problems with them feeding, it is because of the bur on the inside of the top front (at least with the ones Springfield sends out) a round file will cure the problem. The reason 10 total is better than 9 or 11 is because, at local matches the CDP (9 total) guys don’t want the SSP (11 total) and most ESP (11) guys to have an advantage, this makes the few with 10 total happy. As long as the matches are held to the IDPA limit of 18 rounds you’ll still have one to spare.