Uspsa Match Ammo Rules

[kevin c]

The idea of official match ammo has merit, and I applaud USPSA and Precision Delta's efforts to make the concept work. Not having to ship or carry ammunition would be a worry off my mind when planning for a big match. But I have, on reading the rules (see a copy below), a concern. Specifically, it now seems that it is possible to score major even though the ammo used chronographed minor in a person's gun, or to meet a declared minor PF with ammo that is subminor in the gun used.

For example, if I declare major in Limited, and use official match ammo, if my match samples chrono 162 PF in my gun, so long as my delivery samples are close to that, I will be scored in my division not as minor but as major, along with the others who chrono'd 165 or more with official match ammo or their with own. I don't shoot all A's, so that's a lot of points. I wouldn't get this break if I brought my own home grown rounds. But with match ammo, others with 162 PF ammo of their own will score minor, but not me.

By itself, PF is just a number, a standard to determine power. Power factors have changed before, and if USPSA changes what PF scores as major/minor/subminor on an official basis across the board, that's fine. What concerns me is that with the rules as written now there won't be consistency for all competitors in how PF determines scoring at a given match. If you use match ammo, you are covered for your declared division's PF's, but not if you bring your own.

The standard used to be that your ammo had to chrono to the appropriate PF in your own gun. It was your own and sole responsibility to make sure the ammo met declared PF in your gun, and if it did not, tough luck. Now, if you use the official match ammunition, so long as your tested rounds and the delivery samples are within 10 PF points of each other (to make sure that people aren't substituting their own?), then even though in your gun that PF might be less than the declared division's floor, the rules let you score as declared.

This is not just a theoretical concern. In my Limited gun the lot of ammo from PD that I tested did not make major PF straight up (minor for a nominal 180 grain bullet, just major with the overweight bullets in the ammo). There are posts here in this forum where other folks have found the same. This is inevitable - guns vary. To make match ammunition major for almost everbody would mean, for example, 40 S&W with a PF of 175 or 180, which few would buy, so I understand the compromise of the 169 PF used. But that means perhaps more than a few guns will minor PF with the ammo, setting up for the possible paradox at a USPSA tournament of occasionally making major with minor chrono readings.

It's true that the difference in PF and in perceived recoil will not be large, so the "advantage" of minor match ammo compared to other ammo that makes major in the same gun is small. Unfortunately, there are very definite PF lines separating major/minor and minor/subminor, and crossing them in the wrong direction has consequences to the competitor who brings his own ammunition, but not, as I read it, for match ammo users. The kick might be nearly the same, but the effect of different PF is not. If, for non match ammo using competitors, in their guns, their own ammunition is below the declared floor, they will shoot minor or for no score, whereas for match ammo users shooting to the same PF that would not happen. Technically, if competitors brought to the match the very same Precision Delta ammunition as the match ammo, but bought outside the match ammo program, and it chrono'd the same way as the match ammo, if it was below declared PF in their own guns, they are out of luck.

I do believe in the principle of power in our sport. I don't mind if the definition of what power that is changes, but the definition needs to be applied fairly to all competitors. I do think the idea of using match ammo is one that has potential. But I think the rule allowing match ammo needs work to avoid having the same PF mean different things to competitors in the same division, based only on where the competitor got his bullets. One way would be that all competitors would have to use the same ammunition. Another would be to require that all ammo, regardless of source, would need to meet divisional PF requirements (basically, no guarantee on meeting PF, only the convenience of having the ammo on site, which, I admit, might make it a lot less attractive to people).

Just my observations. Comments welcome.

Kevin C

Rule Addition to the 13th Edition adopted January 11, 2006

US 5.8 - The provisions of Appendix D11 shall apply to competitors using official match ammunition.

Appendix D11 - Official Match Ammo

Competitors using Official Match Ammunition are exempt from the requirements of rules 5.6.3.7 or 5.6.3.8 as appropriate for the declared power factor.

Source of ammo

Ammo must be delivered to the competitor only at the match where it will be used and designated official by the US Regional Director.

Power Factor

Specific ammo products may be certified as meeting Minor or Major power factor for specific divisions by the US Regional Director

Competitor Declaration

A competitor who wishes to use official match ammo at the certified power factor must file a declaration with the Match Director stating the official ammo product they will use for the entire match. This declaration must be filed before starting the match.

Withdrawal of Declaration

A competitor who has declared they are using only official match ammo may withdraw their declaration by informing the Range Master prior to use of any non-official ammo.

Ammo Samples

At any match where competitor ammunition will be chronographed, a competitor using official match ammo will be required to provide 8 rounds of this ammo at the time they pick up the ammo (delivery sample), they will also be subject to the provisions of rule 5.6.3.2.

Ammo Verification

At any match where competitor ammunition will be chronographed, a competitor using official match ammo will have ammo samples collected during the match andchronographed according to the provisions of Rule 5.6.3. Should the ammo so tested fail to meet the declared power factor, it shall be compared against the average of 3 rounds collected from the official delivery sample. If the samples collected during the match measure more than 10 power factor points below the delivery samples, the measured power factor of the ammo collected during the match shall be used for score and the provisions of Rule 5.6.3.7 or 5.6.3.8 shall apply.

Unsportsmanlike Conduct

The use of ammo other than official match ammunition, while declaring use of official ammunition, shall be considered unsportsmanlike conduct.

Edited March 11, 2006 by kevin c

[Rob Boudrie]

If there were no possibility of the match ammo rule allowing ammo to score at a level above it's measured power factor, the rule wouldn't really do anything.

The World Body took the lead on this issue, and the World version of the Match ammo rule appears on page 15 of the 2006 World rulebook. I spoke to Michael Voigt about the deliberations regarding this rule at the world level, and they decided that it was a tradeoff between the need to make ammo available "on site" and perfect enforcement of meeting the power factor.

Yes, it is possible for someone to come in a bit under major or minor and still be counted in one of those divisions. No, it's not really possible to "game the system" unless you blatantly cheat (a cheat on the same level as manipulating the selection of rounds in the regular chrono process to give the RO hotter rounds than you are shooting in the match). The need to maintain control over the ammo is the reason that you need to pick up your ammo at the match to get the "certified" status.

I expect USPSA will refine the rules if we find that people are taking steps to subvert the intent of the match ammo rule (for example, shooting a back-bored gun with 1" of rifling).

My guess is that competitors will still prefer to shoot their own loads when possible, but will use the USPSA Match Ammo program (or similar service when offered internationally) when the aggravagation of getting their own rounds to the match is less than the aggravagation of using a factory load. I really doubt that anyone will be buying this ammo "since it might factor a bit below 125 or 165 in their gun".

Edited March 7, 2006 by Rob Boudrie

[Jon Merricks]

I think the only way for USPSA to make the Offical Match Ammo program to work was to add this rule. From what I read of your testing results you did make major,,,not by much. Although the bullet weight advertised is 180 from your writing they all are 181+. So I really don't see it being that big of a deal. They are close in 1 of your guns but fine it the others. If you beat me at the Nat's I promise not to be mad,,,at you anyway. If anything maybe PD can bump it up a 10th if enough people will send them the chrono results.

[Larry White]

USPSA and PD are makeing the same mistake some shooters make, trying to stay too close to the power factor floor. Fact is that major is major, minor is minor and should be scored as such, reguardless of where the ammo came from.------Larry

[dogdoc]

I agree with lkytx on this. If the PF is so close to the floor for major/minor, increase the charge. If someone chooses to shoot ammo provided from someone else, that is a risk they take. If it scores minor so be it, if it scores 185 PF, deal with that as well.

This subject is sensitive with me after scoring minor at Area 4 last year with a 164.8 and dropping 4 positions in the match!! If this happens with me again (it won't!!), I suffer, if it happens to someone using match ammo, nothing changes with them. We both know that no advantage was gained with a 164.8 PF, but rules are rules.

How does this work with one ammo company? It just sounds like a good money making opportunity for that company!!

Another thought, if a competitor uses ammo from one of the big manufacturers (i.e. Winchester, Federal, Hornady) are they exempt from the PF? Why is PD ammo so exclusive? You can't make ammo with the same PF out of all guns, so rather than make an excemption I think they should deal with the consquences!

[JFD]

I'm betting it's more of a pain in the butt for Precision Delta for the opportunity to be seen in the sport.

If the match ammo chrono's 175 or something absolutely "safe", then they aren't going to sell very much and the program will end.

I think that the program is a good enough idea that we should accept that maybe a shooter or 2 might end up with 164 PF match ammo.

I won't lose sleep over it no matter what happens. All my bullets are Precision Delta, so I support the company, but I'll always use my own ammo at matches and will load it "stiff" to make sure I make the PF (175 or so). I do think there are people out there who could really make use of the program, so I'm not complaining.

[Bigbadaboom]

P.F. is P.F.

We are responsible for our equipment and our ammunition. We are also responsible for following the rules. It should not matter if you reload your own ammo, buy it reloaded, or buy factory ammo from Wally-World, if it doesn't make major then it doesn't make it. Major is 165 not 164.9 and minor is 125 not 124.9. I don't agree with IPSC on this ruling at all. It shows favoritism towards people who buy from a specific ammo dealer and I don't think it's fair to Montana Gold, VV, Zero, Ram-Shot, Starline or any of the other ammo related businesses who support our sport. There's no excuse that can be presented to me to make me agree that the rules should apply to some and not others unless it involves a physical handicap.

[Jon Merricks]

I felt the same as some of you about not liking the rule (my knee jerk reaction). Other than rules is rules and PF is PF what will the new rule really hurt. I'm sure the BOD or whoever gave more than 1 company the opportunity to be evolved. I think we all can agree that there will not be any competitive advantage. After all I have seen and heard I think it will be a rarity that some one does not make major with it.

[.40AET]

Bump the charge up .2g and no one will ever notice. Let everyone have a better chance of making major with the PD ammo. All reloaders take enough measures to ensure that they will make PF on match day. I'm against the idea of giving shooters who buy PD ammo a "free pass" at the chrono. They should be resposible for testing the ammo to see if it makes PF by a dependable margin and then ordering a lot for the match.

[Larry White]

What will it hurt? Wait till you go to the chrono with your loads and come in at 164.7, you are shooting minor, your fault, too bad. Next guy is shooting USPSA match ammo and comes in at 164.1, but he is major. What did it hurt? Well he may be within the rules, but you just got cheated, maybe not much and it may not have made a diffrence, but you still got cheated. I have never failed to make major and never will on purpose but heard the chrono man at a major tell the shooter in front of me"You didnt make it and rules are rules." Well rules are rules and major is major.-----Larry

[spd522]

Bump the charge up .2g and no one will ever notice. Let everyone have a better chance of making major with the PD ammo. All reloaders take enough measures to ensure that they will make PF on match day. I'm against the idea of giving shooters who buy PD ammo a "free pass" at the chrono. They should be resposible for testing the ammo to see if it makes PF by a dependable margin and then ordering a lot for the match.

I agree. Although I doubt I would be shooting somewhere I couldn't bring my own ammo, it is the shooter's responsibility to make sure the ammo used makes the major/minor power factor. If the ammo makes major in 9/10 guns but one guy is slightly below major, he is minor. He should have chronographed the loads before going to the match and making a commitment for someone to furnish his ammo.

I load all my ammo for a minimum of 170 Major/130 Minor for a bit of a cushion. Usually it is a bit more. If it is 172/132 or 166/126, I really cannot tell the difference so I would rather be on the high side.

PD is making a commitment to furnish ammo that makes the designated power factor. It would be to their advantage to bump the load a tiny bit to ensure no one is going to get a surprise at the match. It may cause some to shoot a 175/135 power factor load instead of their barely legal load. But I think that is part of the chance you take for the convenience of having ammo at the match for you over loading and hauling your own pet loads.

I shoot several different guns of the same caliber. I have some barrels that are faster than others. I load so I make 170/130 PF in the slowest barrels I will be shooting. Yes, some end up way over the power floor but at least I know I can grab the same ammo for any of my guns and be safe at any match.

Craig

[kevin c]

Sorry, I tend to type way too much .

I agree that competitive advantage of shooting 164.9 vs 165.1 or even 169.1 is not a big issue. What may have got lost in all my musings in the initial post was that a PF of 164.9 with match ammo will let the competitor be scored major, but that another competitor with his own ammo at the exact same PF will score minor. If that same competitor used the same ammo from PD, but brought it with him rather than ordering it for the match, it looks like he would also be scored minor.

My concern is for even and fair application of the PF rules. The match ammo rules make an exception, and that bothers me. The rule might been seen as necessary to make the program work, but it comes at the cost of uniform application of the principle of power to all competitors, that two competitors in the same division with ammo of the same power, as demonstrated by chrono, will be scored differently, using rules that were designed originally to discriminate on differences in power.

For me personally, I plan on shooting major with my own ammunition. If somebody beats me with match ammo, I'm not going to whine that the PF may have made a difference. It will still be the same people at the top anyhow (and I'm not likely to be there ). But I'll still be more than sympathetic to the guy who barely went minor with his own ammo who was out pointed by somebody who had the same PF, had the same hits on the targets but was given a PF pass by using match ammo.

edited only to say I was busy typing too much while the last two or three posts already made my point

Edited March 7, 2006 by kevin c

[Larry White]

This is really not that hard. All get checked at the chrono. If the lowest PF useing PD ammo that gets to shoot at major is 162.9 or what ever everyone that makes 162.9 or above with any ammo is major FOR THAT MATCH ONLY.-----Larry

[kevin c]

Interesting idea. I wonder what that'd do from a match logistics point of view.

[Larry White]

Only thing I see is that no one knows what the pf floors are til everone has chronoed. Bad idea, bad concept, bag of worms. Major is major, minor is minor, rules is rules. Shooter is responsible, take a random 8,pull 1, shoot 6, flip a coin, run what you got and live with it.------Larry

[boo radley]

Major is major, minor is minor, rules is rules. Shooter is responsible, take a random 8,pull 1, shoot 6, flip a coin, run what you got and live with it.------Larry

I generally agree, but I think anyone using PD isn't doing so to gain a competitive advantage; instead it's to get around the hassles of airline travel and the 11-lb baggage limit on ammo, or, that aside the 50-lb (or whatever) single-bag weight limit.

For the program to work, it can't be a crap-shoot whether or not you're going to make major, so a "guarantee" and free pass seems appropriate. I think the other idea is, "hey - here's an ammo company that understands the sport, understands power factor, and I'd rather use THEM then try to drive around a strange place, find a Wal-Mart, and shoot Remington 180gr JHP's at 190pf...."

That said, PD shouldn't be trying to hug the edge either, or it will piss off a number of fellow competitors when the ammo/gun DOESN'T make major, however. That's my thinking, anyway.

I think two members of our squad at the FlOpen shot PD -- Aikidale and Brundoggie. I don't remember whether or not it made major, but they were pretty bummed about how dirty the ammo was, IIRC.

[kevin c]

I see it that way, too.

Maybe I'll ask Mike V and company to comment on the subject. I might try to reach Greg Lent and/or NROI about the scenario, just to get a sense of whether my concerns are real about the difference in scoring match ammo minor vs own ammo minor, before emailed Sedro Woolley.

[Larry White]

I dont think for a minute that anyone is trying to gain a advantage, I do see the need for this program. I do think PD is doing a service. But there is the good thing for one, good thing for all thing too.------Larry

[Chuck Anderson]

I raised the issue with Rob and PD a couple months ago when I first got the chrono figures from PD. I doubt that they're going to change though. PD is loading ammo to the same specs as the Winchester SXT Duty loads. This is as practice ammo for agencies using this duty ammo. Unfortunately, USPSA is a small enough market that I don't see them changing, just for us. It's a little more tricky for a commercial loader to change .2 gr than someone using a Dillon. The powder charges are measured using a plate that is manufactured for a specific charge weight. Changing requires the purchase of a new plate.

[sturmruger]

I see this as a non-issue. If they didn't make it so all PD ammo was major then no one would use the ammo for fear of not making their declared PF. They really want to get this program going and by giving everyone their declared power factor they are insuring success.

[Rob Boudrie]

I raised the issue with Rob and PD a couple months ago when I first got the chrono figures from PD. I doubt that they're going to change though. PD is loading ammo to the same specs as the Winchester SXT Duty loads. This is as practice ammo for agencies using this duty ammo. Unfortunately, USPSA is a small enough market that I don't see them changing, just for us. It's a little more tricky for a commercial loader to change .2 gr than someone using a Dillon. The powder charges are measured using a plate that is manufactured for a specific charge weight. Changing requires the purchase of a new plate.

Actually, Precision Delta has already changed loads for USPSA. Their existing 40 S&W load does not make major (they started to call it "minor" until some people were expecting this to mean "just over 125" - it's really more like 155 or so, so that designation has been dropped). The 40S&W long load is a SxI/Para length load specifically for USPSA, and has yet another powder charge since you need more powder to make major with the larger case volume.

We received three batches of test ammo from PD before Michael Voigt gave final approval. As is traditional with reloading, we started low and worked up - using the powder charge of the standard 40S&W PD load as a starting point.

Initial test loads were done by the PD research staff on a low volume manual machine in their ballistics lab, and two new powder dies for their production line were subsequently ordered at a cost to PD of several hundered $$ each.

Guns and barrels vary widely in bullet velocity - I have three 40 S&W's of the same manufacturer - two are nearly new, and one has a well used, but still very accurate, barrel. The spread between the old barrel and the two new ones is close to 10pf - with anyone's ammo, not just PD. We tried to strike a reasonable balance with something that will generally make major on an "average of 3" (remember, best 3 or 8 generally gives a bit higher reading), not produce a load which was "185 in most guns, but will come in a a bit over 165 in some very worn or loose barrels".

Although PD is very helpful, I'm not going to ask them to keep having new powder drop plates made at whim. Since the program requires official match ammo be chronographed (to verify it is indeed the same ammo as sold), I am going to see if I can get chrono records from this year's nationals to get an idea of the measurements from a wide sample.

[kevin c]

...They really want to get this program going and by giving everyone their declared power factor they are insuring success...

But that's the problem. It isn't everybody who will be given their declared PF, only those using match ammo. It means that there is the potential for two competitors in the same division to chrono identical minor velocities, but one will score major and the other minor. A match ammo user could even chrono lower with the same outcome.

Yes it's not going to affect many people, but in a large match it might effect some. It may be viewed as necessary to the success of the program, but I feel it compromises the principle of power, especially as it is supposed to apply to all competitors in a evenhanded fashion. That, I think is a shame, and is also unfair to those who find themselves penalized for not meeting a competition standard that some of their competitors need not.

[Rob Boudrie]

All competitors have identical choices and options available.

[kevin c]

The match ammo tested 169 PF in the test guns at Sedro Woolley, but, of course, can't be proven to do the same in the competitors guns until actually shot through them. That reminds me of something I remember vaguely from way back. Please correct me, those of you who remember more clearly, but didn't match ammo used to get tested through an official match gun? I think there was a move away from that to testing in the competitor's gun as being more appropriate (not fair to be declared minor when you're major in your own gun). Now this is sort of a swing of the pendulum back in the other direction. The test gun is not the competitors, it was USPSA's. The chrono'ing at the match is, per the new rules, only to confirm that the ammo shot is the ammo ordered, regardless of the actual PF in the competitors gun.

...Since the program requires official match ammo be chronographed (to verify it is indeed the same ammo as sold), I am going to see if I can get chrono records from this year's nationals to get an idea of the measurements from a wide sample...

I'd like to know what is supposed to happen if the match ammo (and yes, I know it is not likely, but the point was made here more than once that guns vary, and it was also pointed out that a nearly 10 PF point swing in different guns using the same ammo was seen - I myself had a 7 PF swing) chrono's minor in the test gun at a tournament? The old way, I think, was if your ammo was minor in the match test gun, you scored minor, even if the ammo was major in your own. I imagine there would be a lot of protest from match ammo users if they were all declared minor, yet another reason for the pass in the PF scoring rules. But I still argue that the approach is not good. IIRC above, it was used before in USPSA, and has been abandoned.

Again, I think the idea of match ammo is one worth working on. I can only applaud PD for stepping up to the plate. I don't even have any objection to the target PF of 169 - I can understand why it was picked. My problem is with USPSA's rules dealing with the ammo, not the ammo itself. I am just uncomfortable with the idea that the rules, as far as PF requirements go, now have a big exception that score the same PF differently given where the competitor got his bullets. It's not fair nor equitable as far as I can see.

All competitors have identical choices and options available.

But I don't see that the consequences are the same, per the new rules, even though the results (the actual PF made through the competitors' guns) are the same (below the PF floor for the division declared). Besides, when the observation above has been used to counter concerns about stage design being fair/unfair, the wisest heads have always told me that the issue could have been avoided by better stage design - better design prevents the issue from arising in the first place. That's why I am looking at the issue - I think better rules are needed to avoid the potential problems raised here.

(going to dinner - be back later )

Edited March 11, 2006 by kevin c

[shred]

All competitors have identical choices and options available.

When they show up at the match and find out the 'official' major ammo is making 150 PF for whatever reason? Did I miss the section of the match ammo rules that it was available over the counter the day of the match? It's a little hard to swallow to suggest that a local shooter pre-order a pile of expensive match ammo for delivery 20 miles away just on the off-chance somebody made a mistake when manufacturing, storing or shipping it and it turns out to PF very low.

It shouldn't be that hard to enlarge the hole in a powder plate, and like others have posted, it's the shooter's responsibility to make sure any Winchester ammo they get from the store makes PF, no matter what lot it comes from or what Wal-Mart they bought it at.

As it is now, the incentive is all about keeping the PF of the 'official' ammo as low as possible-- the buyers want it that way and the manufacturer has less risk of blown up guns to worry about.

I raised these objections back when this was first proposed with the answer something like 'everybody will be upstanding about this, just like chronoing is now'. With that attidude, why don't we just replace the chrono station with a checkbox "Are you making PF? Yes/no"?