Precision Delta Ammo

[Bob Hostetter]

Has anyone had a chance to try out the ammo that Precision Delta is making available at USPSA matches. I called and asked for some 9mm and 40 S&W samples for accuracy testing. Received them prior to the Shot Show and just got a chance to do some testing. My results were not what I expected.

Has anyone had a chance to use any of their stuff and would they be willing to share their opinions?

Edited February 18, 2006 by Bob Hostetter

[Rob Boudrie]

I've heard a couple of good reviews from people who tried out samples - the conclusion was "reliable and accurate, feels like my normal load, a bit dirty".

What were your experiences? If you have accuracy issues, it would be interesting to compare some loads you make with their bullets to the factory loading, as well as your current favorite load.

Edited February 19, 2006 by Rob Boudrie

[TCK]

I have not tried their loaded ammo but I do like their bullets.

[syme71]

I shot about 1,800 rounds of the reloaded 180 FMJ long load when I attended Frank's class a couple of weeks ago. I had no failures whatsoever and accuracy was just as good as my MG/VVN320 loads. My only complaint was it's real dirty. Lots of unburnt powder.

[Jaxshooter]

I picked up some of the 1.185 180gr 40's at the Fla Open this weekend. I will run them over a chrono and post the results.

[Bob Hostetter]

Is the ammo you guys tried loaded in new brass or used?

[kevin c]

I'll have some comments on the long loaded 180 practice ammo after I get a few things sorted out.

Kevin C.

[Chuck Anderson]

The ammo I received for testing was loaded in once fired brass, apparently. All the ammo went bang except for several fail to fires in a Glock with a very light striker spring. Replaced with a mid weight and no issues. The 124 9mm seemed okay. The 147 9mm was very scattered. I had results ranging from:

G17 Stock Bbl

L 904

H 989

Avg 962

G17 Stock Bbl

L 900

H 1003

Avg 964

G34

L 998

H 1027

Avg 1015

Springfield XD 4"

L 927

H 1016

Avg 971

STI 5" Bar-Sto Bbl

L 1010

H 1037

Avg 1026

The 147 showed some pretty extreme differences between high and low rounds. Most of the power factors ended up being pretty high for Production. Out of 5" bbls it was pretty close to 150 pf.

The 124 was much more consistent. Ranging from 128-133 pf. 128 out of the short bbls and 132-133 out of the 5" guns.

The 40 ammo I did find interesting. I got a sample box of the long loaded 40 and tried it in my limited guns. The ammo varied between the two guns.

5" STI Bar-Sto Bbl

L 893

H 918

Avg 905

PF 162

5" SV Bar-Sto Bbl

L 924

H 966

Avg 942

PF 169

I talked to Joe Tranum at Precision Delta. He said that their Ammo is designed to mirror Winchester Talon SXT duty ammo. I checked this with the 40 and 9mm loads. Out of my Duty Glock 22 the SXT is right at an avg of 906 fps. Dead on with the slower of my limited guns. The 9mm was the same. The 147 SXT load is pretty consistent at about 148-151 PF our of several guns.

I'm glad that USPSA has a policy in place for match ammo. I know that I wouldn't trust it to make power factor without USPSA saying it doesn't matter.

As far as the feel of the ammo. The 147 was obviously a bit hotter than my 131 PF 115 gr loads. The 124 felt about the same. The 40 loads felt okay as well. I didn't notice any big issues with accuracy. All loads seemed close enough to POA.

[Rob Boudrie]

When we did initial testing of the 40, we has 165+ in all but one gun which was low (we tested about 6 different guns). The policy was needed since it's not reasonable to load ammo to be 100% certain it's major in the very slowest gun out there.

Also, remember that a 162 power factor average of 3 rounds is not the same as the best 3 of 8 using match procedures. (We used a straight average, not "best 3 of 8", in our testing).

I have samples of the production run of standard length and long, and will test them when we get a warm spell here in the People's Republic of Massachusetts.

Precision Delta reloads are generally made with once fired brass (I think the get it form polcie ranges), however, they use the term "used brass" since they do not get a pedigree with the used brass they acquire. They also offer a new brass option but it co$ts. The used brass is cleaned and roll sized before the loading process.

Keep the comments comming.

[AikiDale]

I used the .40 major long at the Florida Open. It fed fine, made 168.9 PF at the chrono and was very dirty, i.e., you need to keep an eye on your gun between stages to ensure functioning. Even with an hour and a half between stages I don't want to be cleaning my gun at a match.

I like the service and convenience of having the ammo delivered to a match. found the folks from Precision Delta very helpful and easy to work with. Now if we can clean it up a little I would be a happy shooter and repeat customer.

[Bob Hostetter]

My orginial question was based on my testing of some sample ammo they sent to me. Out of 100 rounds of the "Long" loaded 40 I had 3 rounds that wouldn't chamber in a new Bar Sto Barrel because of a belt around the base of the cartridge. Because of that I didn't even try any accuracy testing.

The 147gr 9 mm ammo I recieved was all over the place on velocities and I had one case failure thru the extractor groove in a New Bar Sto Barrel. As a result I stopped testing prior to shooting any groups.

I have a couple of boxes of the 115 and 124gr 9mm ammo which I will try this coming weekend and will post the results.

I have spoken with Joe Tranum and he was very helpful and concerned. He stated he was going to get a larger diameter rolling wheel for the 40 which take care of the problems I had.

[Jman]

I ordered and shot the .40 S&W 180gr "minor pf evaluation pak" and was a little disappointed. It functioned perfectly in my XD, that said it was the "minor pf" designation that came up short for me. It felt absolutely no different than full blown factory ammo. I spoke to Precision about it. Nice people. They informed me that the 'minor' loads were coming in around a 160pf. Well, I guess technically they're right, 160 is minor but....

They have since removed the word minor from there product descriptions.

[Nemo]

Is this the ammo that made Ricardo (revo shooter) have problems (primers backing out) at the Florida Open?

[Rob Boudrie]

I ordered and shot the .40 S&W 180gr "minor pf evaluation pak" and was a little disappointed. It functioned perfectly in my XD, that said it was the "minor pf" designation that came up short for me. It felt absolutely no different than full blown factory ammo. I spoke to Precision about it. Nice people. They informed me that the 'minor' loads were coming in around a 160pf. Well, I guess technically they're right, 160 is minor but....

They have since removed the word minor from there product descriptions.

Better wording would have been "not major." When we originally tested the existng Precisionj Delta 40 S&W load, it did not make major, so Precision Delta added a "major" load. The "minor 40" load is not one designed to squad in just over the 125pf.

[kevin c]

I bought one evaluation order (250 rounds) of Precision Delta's long loaded major PF 40 S&W ammunition. I thought some might like to know what I found on examining it, in case they might care to buy the bullets and make up something similar.

First of all, I got an order of practice ammo. This, I am told, is loaded to the same specs as the match ammo, but with different brass. This is just one lot, so the measurements are specific to this lot, and the velocities are specific to my guns. The lots you purchase may be different (though they shouldn't vary too much), and the velocities you get through your own guns and chronos will vary as well.

First, the ammo specs are for 1.180" in OAL, using a 180 grain FMJ bullet of PD's own manufacture, and for 169 PF through the guns used by USPSA in their initial evaluations.

The bullets on my pulled samples were very close to each other in weight, varying only from 181 to 182 grains, with most very close to the average of 181.6 grains. This was the same as the test lot of 2000 bullets I ordered at the same time. The manufacture might have been a bit different on the lot of bullets used for the ammo as opposed to the component bullets, though, since on using the same seating stem set to the same seating depth, the COL varied by .010" on reseating the pulled bullets as opposed to the new ones. I am speculating here that the ogive is a bit different, but it is also possible that my kinetic bullet puller altered the bullet profile in a way I didn't see on inspection (more on the aggravations caused by the puller below). The FMJ's had a deep base crimp, but it was very uniform, unlike some bulk bullets I've seen from other manufacturers. Bullet length was very uniform on the lot I got, at 0.607".

Cartridge overall length ranged from 1.175" to 1.187" on a 50 round sample, with a nice bell shaped distribution peaking around 1.179" to 1.183".

Cases on this practice lot were clearly previously fired. The ones I got were a bit tarnished. I did not inspect them for multiple extractor or ejector marks. Makeup was 44% Winchester, 21% Federal, 17% Speer, 14% RP and a smattering of odd cases (all 250 rounds surveyed).

Joe Tranum, president of PD, told me that the powder used is a commercial type of Winchester powder, not available as a canister powder for reloaders. He had a special multicavity powder charge plate custom made to throw very consistent charges for the ammunition, exactly 7.0 grains. I had trouble getting that at first - the very fine ball powder kept leaking out of my kinetic bullet puller from the gaps between the sections of the collet. After making a shield, I got exactly 70 grains for 10 rounds pulled.

I chrono'd a lot of this ammunition through three guns (well, mostly my match gun). I used a Pact model I at about 8 feet, on two different days, both with temperate, clear, sea level conditions. The guns were in good shape with good barrels. 64 rounds through my 5" LimCat barrelled match gun averaged 913 fps. 23 rounds through a 5" Schuemann bull barrel averaged 929 fps. 10 rounds through a new G35 (5.3" polygonally rifled bbl) averaged 951 fps. Standard deviations were in the midteens. I found the loads to be a bit dirty, as noted by some other posters, though, to be fair, most loads are going to be dirtier than the Vihtavouri loads I usually use. Accuracy in match conditions was good, but no groups have been shot yet. I will post group size if I get a chance with what ammo I have left.

So, with a nominal 180 grain bullet, or the actual bullet weight of 181.6 grains, the Glock made major handily (though, loaded long, I had to feed them two at a time in the mags, since they were too long), they were pretty close to the advertised PF in another gun, but barely made major with a third, and that only with the actual overweight bullet. Per my reading of the new match ammunition rules posted on the USPSA website, even the last would probably pass muster with a bullet weighing in at the nominal 180 grains.

There you have it. Remember, YMMV.

Kevin C.

edited to add that the jackets seemed a bit soft - they marked more easily than what I remember from when I used Zeros, and are definitely softer than the hard brass jacket on the MG's I use now.

Edited March 6, 2006 by kevin c

[Kevin Kline]

Excellent Kevin, thanks. Will you be testing any 9mm (147gr) stuff? Let us know how they group.

[38superman]

Excellent report Kevin.

You should get yourself a collet style bullet puller.

You'll be a much happier man.

I used the kinetic pullers for decades.

I avoided pulling bullets because it was such a pain.

I broke down and bought an RCBS collet style puller which I use in a single stage press.

It takes a fraction of the time, you don't lose powder and you don't deform the nose of the bullet by slamming it into the front of the kinetic puller.

It is a vast improvement.

Tls

Edited March 6, 2006 by tlshores

[kevin c]

Thanks, gents.

I shoot almost exclusively 40 in competition, Kevin, so I probably won't get around to checking the 9mm fodder that's available.

TLShores: collet bullet pullers fit in your press, right? I only have a SDB, without threads or rings for standard dies or accessories, so I'm stuck for now. But thanks for the suggestion.

Kevin C

[Jaxshooter]

Tested the Major Long 40 load and the Major Standard length load in two limited guns. One is an SV Infinity Sight Tracker with a Schueman barrel and the other is an STI Executive. Both guns have less than 2000 rounds thru them. Power factor in both guns was consistantly 163 shooting 10 shot strings. Checked my current handlaod and came up with the same figures I usually get from it. It is definately their ammo not the chrono or weather.

What is USPSA policy if you order this ammo for a match and pick it up at the match and find out at the chrono stage that it does not make major?

[kevin c]

What is USPSA policy if you order this ammo for a match and pick it up at the match and find out at the chrono stage that it does not make major?

Look right here:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=33301

Short version: you're OK, with the current rules, though there is, as you can see, some difference in opinion about the rules and how they affect scoring.

Edited March 9, 2006 by kevin c

[kevin c]

OK. Here is a bit of group data. Conditions were way less than ideal, but it was the time and distance I could spare with what little ammo I had left of the long loaded .40 IPSC load.

Five shot groups at 12 yards were around 0.5" for five groups (I shot eight groups, but my initial bench technique was bad (I almost set my Dillon ammo bag on fire ) and the wind kept moving my target around. The first three groups included would have opened up the average to about 0.7".

Extrapolated to twenty-five yards would be a touch over an inch. Not at all a shabby load or bullet .

I did notice a lot of powder blowing back at me when it was windy.

FWIW,

Kevin C

spelling error edit

Edited March 13, 2006 by kevin c

[.40AET]

Sorry to be so late with this. I ordered the sample case last month when the thread started. I drop checked the first box of 50 with bad results. Only 9 of 50 passed the Dillon case gauge test. 41 failed and would normally be tossed into the "practice box". I'm going to the range tomorrow to chronograph.

[.40AET]

Finally got to the range with the chronograph. I used a CED with IR. The first group of 10 had one shot that only went 565fps. I cleared that one out and shot a second group of 20 to get the data. I'll try to get the test rounds to some of the guys who I shoot with for further testing.

Low=880

Ave=920

Hi =946

ES= 66

SD=16

PF=165.6