Lidell v Couture 3

[Singlestack]

Did anybody see it?

Lidell K.O.'ed Couture in the 2nd and retained his title. I can't wait to see it.

[Jon Merricks]

Oh thanks John I was going to watch it tonight............Jk

[Singlestack]

Liddell Retains and Couture Retires; UFC 57 Results

[spook]

Well, since the results are out anyways..... I thought it was an OK fight. Quick win tho

[Jake Di Vita]

I saw it. Randy is getting old and slipped.

[Singlestack]

I saw it. Randy is getting old and slipped.

I would have lost my money if I was a betting man. I just knew the the "Natural" had more skills than Liddell. I thought he would take Chuck down and beat him on the mat. Chuck has some serious power in both fists and I did not think Randy would fight him standing up after the last fight.

[dirtypool40]

I'm no expert, but I though Randy won the first one clearly and got "caught" in the second. Havn't seen the 3rd yet, but it sounds like he's losing a step and Chuck only needs one punch.

Taking nothing away from Lidell, he hits like a truck, but he throws homeruns and I hate to see consistent good work, tossed with one home run. But that's the nature of the sport. I saw a guy (can't remmeber name) getting his ass whooped ko the guy at the start of the next round in 5 seconds with a flying knee to the head in the first clash. He should consider himself lucky, but a win's a win.

I thought the first Lidell / Coutre fight was great.

I also got to see Matt Hughes fight on "unleashed" three times, 5 total counting 2 against Trigg, and the more I see of that guy the more impressed I am. No posing, no trash talk, just hard work and getting it done. The guy was kicked in the berries and being choked and still looked calm. That friggin' scares me!!! And he's Stronger than most heavyweights. Big Friggin Farm boy, with experience and confidence, look out.

A dozen years ago when all this got started, I remember thinking "once they get the high end wrestlers involved, they will run away with this thing". It seems MOSTLY true. When you take away the "no striking" rules of an international class wrestler, and let him do all the things he was never allowed to, he's a threat. If Dave Shultz were alive he would've been world champ at his weight class if he wanted to. Mean, tough and used to guys trying anything to beat him. Same with Gable, Baumgartner and others.

The level of competition (international wrestling) is so high in that sport, compared to some of the brawling leagues, that if they can take a punch they usually do really well.

On the other hand it's like wrestling another way, the weight classes have very different flavors, and therefore there is room for great strikers who can sprawl like Lidell. I think I remmeber hearing in some commentary that was a pretty good wrestler too, but I don't remember specifics.

I am so embarrassed I watch this stuff, but mostly it's for the confidence / believing in their system and heart the top guys show. The homeruns bore me.

Edited February 10, 2006 by dirtypool40

[spook]

I am so embarrassed I watch this stuff, but mostly it's for the system and heart these guys show. The homeruns bore me.

Seriously? You're embarrassed? How come?

Edited February 10, 2006 by spook

[JFD]

I'm not embarrassed at all.

[Bear1142]

If I were 10 years younger, I'd give it a try.

Erik "Y'know, I'm training to be a cage fighter!"

[Singlestack]

If I were 10 years younger, I'd give it a try.

Erik "Y'know, I'm training to be a cage fighter!"

I was thinking about you when I posted this.

[Bruce]

At that level mistakes are seldom let slide. Randy slipped and Chuck was ready...similar to 2nd fight where Randy was off-balance just a bit and his chin was open. Hello, goodbye, thanks.

Would have hoped Randy would learn that you don't follow power around the ring. Chuck is a counter-puncher, better fighting against someone who pressures him than while going forward. Chuck and Randy were good for each other...they both made more money because the other guy was in his weight class at the same time. Randy was great for the sport. I wish him well.

[walangkatapat]

Chuck beat Randy twice, no excuses. You leave yourself open and Chuck will make you pay. It would have been nice to have seen Randy win since he's in the over forty crowd like many of us. When is Hughes going to fight Penn again?

[Bruce]

Penn fights George St. Pierre in the next UFC, I believe. What a great fight that should be!

Hughes is fighting Royce Gracie in the UFC this spring.

[PistolPete]

I'm one of the biggest MMA fans you'll ever meet. I've been involved in the martial arts since I was a little kid. The fight went the way it should have. Liddell is the best 205 fighter in the UFC ever. He has the best take down defense in the business and whenever he gets taken down can some how just stand right back up. He also packs the hardest punch in the 205 division and it's been proven many times over that if he hits you that you go to sleep. Couture is an incredible fighter but just not good enough to beat Liddell. When Couture won their first fight Liddell took him lightly and didn't train hard because Randy was coming off 2 big losses and Liddell figured it was an easy win. Needless to say that didn't happen. Liddell has an akward style and keeps his hands down really low and loves the wide looping punches. He likes to counter punch and by leaving his hands low he lores people to throw at him so he can slip the punch and knock them out.

I've been a fan of MMA since the first UFC back in 1994. Can't wait to see the return of Royce Gracie vs. Matt Hughes. Hopefully George Saint Pierre will be the victor in this next UFC and they better give him a title shot as he is long over due.

Pete

[Kimberkid]

Dirty~ the flying knee was courtesy of James Irving, though I forget the name of his opponent.

I swear if I hear this tired shit about "Randy is getting old, and the Father Time caught him" one more time, I am gonna lose it. He got caught, plain and simple. His age has zero to do with it. If he was 20 yrs old he would still be able to get caught. When you get cracked in the jaw with a fleshy sledgehammer, shit happens. I cant see how anyone can argue Chuck is a better all around fighter. He is the winner, and deserves that respect, but he isnt the best rounded. Coutore has won fights by submission, ground and pound, and stand up knockout. Has Chuck ever won by submission? Has Chuck ever won by true ground and pound, or just a knock down-climb-on-top-and-finish? Chuck is a great fighter, with great power and great defense, but not the best all around. I have a hard time choking down the idea he is the best 205 ever, but we are all welcome to our opinions. Besides, who knows, if Randy used some of Chuck's favorite moves like the "eye gouge to knock out" if might have turned out differently. Congrats to Chuck for the win, and Congrats to Randy for being a true role model and champion and showing class even in defeat.

[PistolPete]

The only person right now that has beaten Liddell that he didn't get a rematch and win is Rampage Jackson. I know they are trying to work out some type of deal for a rematch but it will be difficult because Jackson fights in Pride and not the UFC. As for Liddell he is a great ground fighter but just chooses to keep the fight standing. Look at when Randy took Chuck down in this past fight Chuck just stood right back up. 99% of the MMA fighters in that situation would have not gotten back up. Chuck may not be the most technical fighter out there but he is right now king of the hill. Will Ronato Sobral get a title shot? Prob. Will the outcome be the same as their last fight? Who knows...

As for Technical fighters right now my vote prob. goes to George Saint Pierre. He has incredible stand up and excellent jiu jitsu. He is definately an underrated fighter and I think they are trying to build his rep. before giving him a title shot against Rich Franklin. When the time comes that will be a GREAT fight as both fighters are quite equally matched.

dirtypool40-

I actually disagree with you on th is. When the wrestlers first came onto the scene such as Mark Coleman and Mark Kerr they dominated for a short while. Everything comes full circle and as of right now the stand up fighters for the most part are dominating. However, to be a good MMA fighter you need to be well versed in all types of fighting to be successful. If you are only a great wrestler someone will knock you out, if you are only a great kickboxer someone will tap you out etc etc. Most MMA training now consists of Muay Thai, Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, and boxing. MMA has definately changed the Martial Arts forever.

I do agree with you though about Matt Hughes. He is a powerhouse and has improved so much over the years. His stand up has improved 100% and he is definately a true champion. His next fight will be against the man who changed the Martial Arts forever (Royce Gracie) and that is a match I'm dying to see. It will be interesting to see the new breed of MMA fighter pitted against the ORIGINAL UFC champion. Both are great on the ground. Matt is much stronger but Royce has incredible submission skills. I'm sure Royce has changed his fighting over the past 10 years so it will be interesting to see if the Gracies can still dominate this game 12 years later. The only problem for the Gracies is that everyone knows the Jiu Jitsu game now.

[Bruce]

GSP fights at 170, Franklin at 185. GSP lost to Hughes a few UFCs ago. I do agree though, he is an amazing fighter. I think he will take Hughes next time.

The Hughes / Gracie fight should be won by Hughes. UFC rules do not favor Royce's skills as they once may have. Now, a lull on the ground and you are stood up. Now, you have 5 minute rounds. Put Hughes and Gracie in a "go until someone quits or gets ko'd fight" and man, you would have a video you could watch in 20 years and not be bored.

Chuck is a champ, no question. Rampage beat him up, but would love to see a rematch. Best 205'er? Man, I could not bet against Wanderlei Silva in that fight. Chuck has the best takedown defense I have ever seen. Fighting from his back though? In the few times he has been in that position he has not been impressive.

King of the hill? Fedor, at about 230.

[spook]

Best 205'er? Man, I could not bet against Wanderlei Silva in that fight.

I'm not quick to call someone in MMA the absolute best, but Wanderlei is da man!

[Sharyn]

Holy crap!!! Chuck Liddell was my kickboxing instructor way back I-dunno-when! OHHHH!!! I'm so happy to see he's been so successful! He's an awesome guy. Oh my gosh, how extra super cool!

Congrats, Chuck!!!

[PistolPete]

Wanderlei is an awesome fighter and a match between him and Liddell would be great. Wanderlei has beaten Rampage but don't forget Wanderlei got knocked out by Vitor Belfort and he also lost to Kevin Randlman. Don't forget that Liddell stopped Randleman when he was the underdog. That was Liddells start to fame!!! Only problem with Liddell fighting fighters from Pride will be the rules. The only way to be fair would be to have 2 fights. One under UFC rules and one under Pride rules. I doubt we'll ever see that happen.

GSP fights at 170, Franklin at 185. GSP lost to Hughes a few UFCs ago. I do agree though, he is an amazing fighter. I think he will take Hughes next time

My bad... I meant to say Matt Hughes but had Franklin on my mind. Will still be a good fight but this time GSP has much more experience than their first meeting. However, the same is said of Matt Hughes.

[Kimberkid]

Pete~ I agree 100% that the new MMA fighter must be fully rounded, but Chuck isnt. He wins by knockout and eyegouge, thats it. He is allegedly a good wrestler, but has never shown it. He does have great stand up, but in the first Cotoure fight, he was taken down, stood up, taken down, stood up, taken down, mounted and beaten like a red headed step child. Once Randy kept him down for more than 10 seconds, it was over. I got tons of respect for Chuck as an awesome striker, but not much as an all around fighter, and not much as a sportsman. Randy is not 100% rounded, but much more so than Chuck, and a true sportsman in every sense of the word. You are right that Chuck is a counter fighter, where as Randy has controlled the action in all of his fights. Last time I checked the judges scorecard rewarded aggressiveness.

Word round the campfire is that Rampage's contract with Pride is up in less than a year and there is rumor of a Lidell/Rampage fight after that. I wont try to call a winner, but it will be awesome.

As for Hughes/Gracie, it will be a ride. Hughes is was stronger, but trains a system with submission fighting as a first priority. I dont think he will give up much to Royce in submissions. Will the remaining elements of Gracie jui jitsu be too much for Hughes? I dunno. Word is also that Royce is no longer training with his brothers, I dunno if it is true, but thats what I am hearing. If it is true, I dont expect to see a Royce that was near as good as he used to be.

[dirtypool40]

KK wasn't shamrock or somebody saying that the other, bigger Gracie was better, and didn't need his gi? I haven't seen Royce fight in a long time, but was he ever as big or ripped as Hughes.

Bring me up to date, did Shamrock beat on him after the firs tone or what? I missed that whole era. I know Ken went over to WWF or some crap for a while.

Pete

I'm not well steeped in MMA lore but I do remember the first UFC. I don't know half the greats, but the first UFC was sort of a sideshow, almost a Gracie promo. There are no more ninjitsu, Tae kwon do, or pure boxers likely to get in the octagon. Very few 350# bikers want to prove they can take that kind of beating either. And honestly the few of those I saw bored the hell out of me. About like a match with one 20 min round like you say, where they are allowed to stall while I go for snacks.

What I see now is the same thing you see in high end boxing, or wrestling, or for that matter kickboxing or ju jitsu; the system with minor variations has been established for this game. The strongest, fastest, toughest guy, who executes it the best should win.

Some guys have exceptional attributes, in that they are way too strong for a weight class or hit like a truck, or can take a punch etc, but in general, there ain't no one dimensional fighters left out there. At least not by the time we get to the televised level.

UFC I had what, two real MMA fighters in it? (Shamrock and Gracie) The rest were victims or brawlers. And it took a while to work that out of it as the rules evolved.

Over the past dozen years when I would wonder through magazine racks at BAM, I might skim articles about Gracie, Shamrock, or whoever the hot rock was at the time. The best guys are ALWAYS comfortable grappling. If you're not how in the hell could you even get in that ring. I know the timing and technique of actually hitting someone is a learned skill, but high end (Like NCAA Div 1 and beyond) grappling is something you either get or you don't. (I'm not saying I do by the way , but the best guys are like wrestling a tar baby or an octopuss. Add to that that these guys just know how a body works, as in illegal holds, leverage and where things are going and as soon as you let them strike they are a threat.).

Yes, it's possible a guy that was never on the mat in high school or college could wander into a ju jitsu school downtown and find his calling. What I'm saying is that I would bet a decent coach could grab ten college boxers and wrestlers at the same level and given say 90 days, make a better percentage of competitive MMA fighters out of the wrestlers. Hey isn't that a better concept than the current UF TV series? Coooool.....)

Yes, you need a chin and a credible striking thrreat, but if you can't fight on the ground, don't get in there. Ok, in Chuck's case, if you can keep anyone from taking you down, we'll write you a waver. (Side note; how does that guy just stand up with a grappler the likes of Couter on him? Wanna tell me that?)

As the sport has matured, the competition has gotten better. By Weight class is the only way to keep things fair. The first couple were open I think, and again that's a freak show. Anyway, I still think there is a flavor to a heavy weight match that is different than how light weights fight. The speed and mass of the fighters is just too different not to show in the pace of the fight.

I gotta quit reading this thread.

I just caught part of Lethal Weapon I last night as I was cooking, and before I could stop myself I said, "oh, triangle choke, Gary Busey is in trouble."

[Green Mountain Gunner]

I'm going to have to defend Chuck here. Why in the world would he want to prove he's a wrestler against Randy Couture. Randy is an olympic caliber wrestler and Chuck's got a pretty good thing going with his right hand. I couldn't say who would have been better in there prime and the reason UFC is so cool is that at any point someone can get KO'd. One thing I will say is out of all 4 champs Matt Hughes is the only one who primarily ends his fights in submission. Franklin, Liddel and Arlovski are all stand up or ground and pound guy's. They know how to wrestle they train jiu jitsu but they'll throw leather with anyone. I watched the first few UFC PPV back in the day as I was big into Tae Kwon do at the time and MMA has never been better. I'd be suprised to see Gracie last 2 minutes with Hughes and I would be willing to bet Hughes isn't going to try to prove he's a better wrestler. He's going to try to knock him out. Just like Chuck.... Cant wait to watch.

BJ

[dirtypool40]

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