mmcnx2 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I'm considering getting into the open class and must admit the equipment options are a little over welling. I've been doing a ton of reseach but questions remain, I could really use some help. As I look at these guns they seem to fall in 3 general groups. 1. non-1911 such as an CZ or EAA, the plus is they seem to be very price competitive. 2. 2011 style from a specialized company such as STI, significantly more money, but still not custom. 3. Full custom 2011 form a smith such as Brazo, what can you say, a whole new form of art. Can someone please help me understand the pros/cons of these and provide some insight. Price is not my first concern, I'm willing to pay for what I get but I also don't want to through needless money at the need. You insight is greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I think agree with the reasoning presented in this link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 The CZ/EAA has a smaller grip than a SxI, but a SxI grip can be reworked to make it smaller. I have medium-size hands, and have been very happy with the recontoured grip on my SV limited gun. I would stay away from the CZ/EAA simply because the lack of smiths who work on them, and the number of aftermarket parts are fewer than for SxI guns. Probably the cheapest way to go in an open gun right now would be a Glock. I have no experience in running open Glock in 9mm major, so I'll leave that to someone else to discuss. I've seen guys/gals with factory SxI guns that ran just fine. They didn't have some of the options that *I* would have preferred, so I went with a Bedell. As good as the factory SxI guns are, they don't get attention to detail that a Brazos, Limcat, Bedell, Hardy, Dawson, etc. does. That's what you're paying the extra $$$ for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 As proof of concept, the multiple World Champ shoots the Large Frame Tanfoglio and the gun comes from Tanfoglio ready to run. It is extremely popular outside the USA. Its certainly capable. There are more 2011 gunsmiths in the USA - that is true. However, EGW and others still retain the ability to customize Tanfoglios from their work on the old Tanfoglio open guns of the 90s (that were sold by Springfield as the "P9"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vettman1 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 If you are serious about getting a complete custom gun, you definately need to look at Bedell. He's a outstanding gunsmith and will treat you right. I'm not saying that the other top gunsmiths aren't, I'm just saying I have first person experience with Dan Bedell and he'll be the one that builds my limited gun based on what he did for me with my open gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Front Man Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Caspian is on a come back too! You need to try them all before you lay down hard earned money. Try some open guns that are for sale by shooters at your home range. Some of the guy's that bought second hand open guns are the one's kicking ass now! FM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Shoot as many as you can, and find what you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Just my 2cts, but I'd rather go with a 1911/2011 than the Tanfoglio/EEA. True, Grauffel uses one, but he says it's only because of the size of his hands (the grip is smaller). Also, I have seen many, many, real problems with the EEA/Tanfo guns. Substantially more than with 1911/2011 models. With the huge amount of 1911 parts and few EEA parts in the US, I would take the easy choice. Again, just my observations and 2cts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmcnx2 Posted February 1, 2006 Author Share Posted February 1, 2006 (edited) It's unfortante but I most likely will have to buy one before trying any. The group I shoot with has 3 open shooters, all shooting older heavily smithed guns. Nothing that you could even remotely compare to something you could purchase new. Not that these are not wonderful guns and these guys shoot them well but it's like saying I like my Colt Gold Cup so all 1911's shoot that good. The input is really appreciated: To sum it up so far CZ/EAA cons - limited access to smiths and parts Pros - price general - grip size 2011 - pros - parts and smith availablity, acceptance in US market Any thing I should add to my list? Edited February 1, 2006 by mmcnx2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 (edited) The quality of STI mags is better than any of the others. SV is close but their new ones have been a little out of shape & don't always drop out of the gun. Dawson, Grams, and Brazos all offer tuning of the mags that is top-notch, money well spent. Genuine EAA mags are probably 2nd place. Equal quality to that is Glock. Genuine Para mags are 3rd. Genuine Caspian mags are a distant 4th. High-maintenance. Most aftermarket mags stink. Money down the drain. As far as the guns, all of them have little things that are more prone to fail than the other manufacturers' guns. EAA has more of those "little things" & their steel is heat-treated to some different standard [too hard] so it tends to develop cracks. My advice is don't rush, keep checking the BE.com and USPSA.com classified ads & you're likely to see a good used STI/SV gun for between 1200 and 2200 $$. Feel free to PM me about smiths, barrels, comps, etc. if you find something interesting. Edited February 1, 2006 by eric nielsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QQQQ Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 (edited) I would also consider calling Derek at Millenium (since he's in FL as well) I have an EGW open gun and a Millenium open gun and one of each for Limited (all 2011) and all are of great quality...and I didnt have to wait a year for the guns from Derek...like with George :-) Edited February 1, 2006 by QQQQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Everyone who has a rock solid reliable gun thinks their smith is the best. Brazos builds an awesome gun, you won't be dissappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 a used sti or sv would probably be better than a new EAA. one could probably have a decent open glock built with a used G17 or g22 and have a fairly good open gun. but for the cash, you probably cant go wrong with a used piece of "texas steel" (sti or sv) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Front Man Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I do wish my Caspian mags were as stout as S_I's. Outdoors they are not a problem; drop them (loaded) on concrete you better get out the vise grips and calipers. My 170MM mag has a Dawson mag pad that allows easy cleaning, wish my others had that too! Other than that they aren't THAT bad. They just aren't cool at this point in history. FM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Praying Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I agree with Cameron on this one. Shoot as many as you can, to find out what feels right to you. You may have to go to another range or a major match to do this, but most shooters will be glad to show off their blasters and let you shoot them. Then look at the styles and options that the major 2011 manufactors have to offer. Most of the manufactors/smiths these guys are talking about will fix you up with a good one and stand behind it. FWIW, I shoot an SVI 38super open and have an SVI 40 limited that I have shot at a few matches. I can't stop shooting Open. Both guns are great and SV is the only way for me. The only problem with the SVI, is waiting for it. You know what they say. Good things come to those who wait. Ronnie BTW, if you go to the Fl Open I'll let you shoot mine. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 i dont know anyone who likes waiting for a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Good idea on visiting the Florida Open. Frank has a steel range setup just for people to test fire and warm up. I assure you, everyone that has an Open gun will let you shoot it. You will see guns from at least a half dozen high quality gunsmiths, as well as different sights, comps, shorty vs 5 inch, 9mm vs 38 super etc. You time spent at that match is extremly valuable in finding what you like. My personal oppinion after shooting several different guns: STI gun built by Bedell 9mm major caliber Cmore Dawson scope mount Dawson ICE magwell Advanced Performance grip SV mags tuned by Beven Grams Hard chrome finish by Tripp Zero 125 bullets 3n37 powder Enjoy the shopping!! Wish I could be there with you shooting everybody elses guns and ammo!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Precision Designs Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Good idea on visiting the Florida Open. Frank has a steel range setup just for people to test fire and warm up. I assure you, everyone that has an Open gun will let you shoot it. You will see guns from at least a half dozen high quality gunsmiths, as well as different sights, comps, shorty vs 5 inch, 9mm vs 38 super etc. You time spent at that match is extremly valuable in finding what you like.My personal oppinion after shooting several different guns: STI gun built by Bedell 9mm major caliber Cmore Dawson scope mount Dawson ICE magwell Advanced Performance grip SV mags tuned by Beven Grams Hard chrome finish by Tripp Zero 125 bullets 3n37 powder Enjoy the shopping!! Wish I could be there with you shooting everybody elses guns and ammo!!! L.O.L. I'd like that part! Maybe even shoot a whole match with it before you tell the owner he/she can't have it back!!! Who knows, some shooters have more than one Open gun, and one of them (usually the older one, but still excellent) might be available for a good price, and no waiting time. After all building a true "custom" open gun does take time. Some people think it's just a matter of throwing a whole bunch of mismatched parts in a bucket and shaking it some, and "voila" a championship winning gun drops out. NOT!!! These guns, (custom built by one of the 'smiths helping out here in these forums) will usually last longer than you care to shoot it, if properly fitted and cared for. Maybe that "used" gun that you obtained from another shooter may need a new barrel or a new comp, but it will be affordable, and after re-fitting it will continue to shoot great for many years. Fortunately, used guns can be fixed easier than people. Come to think of it ... I think I need a couple of cortizone injections in my joints ... after which ... watch out you young whipper-snappers !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmcnx2 Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 Guys, I appreciate the advice about the FL match. Not to be ungrateful, but given I live in Minnesota that may not be very practical. The feedback so far has been interesting, I was actually expecting more debate about the technical strenghts and weakness of the differnt platforms of 2011 vs CZ based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dream Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 you can't go wrong with BOB My pro sx runs great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sendf1 Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 What ever you do don't skimp on an open gun to only regret it and then respend the money on the right one later. Shoot every gun you can get your hands on and ask everyone at your club what they like and dislike about there guns. Lots of money spent now will save you from spending it twice down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike g Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Well, I'll paddle against the flow.. OPEN GUNS..Ask your self what caliber am I going too shoot? I'm with the trend to 9mm major. SHOULD I shoot 38 super, 38 su. comp., 38 TJ or what? . (Used to shoot EAA/P9's 9 x 21 in the "OLD" days)(Still have them). I have 2 open sti's. (1, 38 super,1 9mm). They are excellent guns. BUT for the MONEY (and small hands) I don't think you can beat the large frame EAA's in either 9mm or 38 super. Replace the slide lock with a hardened one and extend the safety out a touch, replace the rubber grips w/ some flat alum. plate, add a C-MORE, VERY few $$$$ and your off and running.. . If your on a budget and still want too play???.. You can usally find the new/used EAA guns very reasonibly priced if you look a bit. I'll vote for the EAA. Most courses of fire these days are going to take a mag change, so the lack of a 170mm mags is not such a big deal? (weld 2 together?)..LITTLE thought...If you are THE #1 shooter in the world??? what gun would YOU choose to shoot,... hummm I wonder ????... EGW still has mag wells, sears? etc. availible and Brownells has springs, mag extentions etc. WHAT ever gun /caliber you pick?? start with 9mm and SEE IF YOUR HAPPY?? any gunsmith can ream it to 38 Super/9 x 23 if your not BUT you can't go the other way without a new barrel. I like the thought that your MIND is not made up? GOOD LUCK. mike g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Most courses of fire these days are going to take a mag change, so the lack of a 170mm mags is not such a big deal? Its a BIG deal for me! In fact, it would be a deal breaker. BTW, #1 might shoot them but you have to go a l o n g way down the list to find another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 BTW, #1 might shoot them but you have to go a l o n g way down the list to find another one. Henning shoots Tanfoglio/EAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 BTW, #1 might shoot them but you have to go a l o n g way down the list to find another one. Henning shoots Tanfoglio/EAA Ok, thats 2. Should I start listing now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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