Mark01 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Hello, After moving back to the states, from Germany, I plan to jump into the 3-gun world. I began shooting IPSC at a military range and have been hooked for the past 5 years. From gathering info from this site and others I know one fact - I need a decent AR, among a few other things. It has been many moons since I've owned an AR. The ones I owned left much to be desired and I never regretted selling them and going with a Valmet. I've narrowed my choice down to a POF 18" gas piston system, which they sell as an upper. Is this a good choice? I don't see comment on individuals using the AR gas piston system in competition. Are these not commonly used for a reason? I planned to match the upper with a POF lower for compatibilities sake. Again, is this a good choice or should I be looking else ware? I want the reliability/durability of the Valmet with the ability to customize to my needs as you can with an AR. I originally had the Clark Gator at the top of my list till I came across the POF system. I'm going to be parting with my Valmet to finance my new purchase so whatever I end up getting I want to fulfill as wide a spectrum as possible in terms of competition, home defense and plain fun. So hit me with your advice. Thanks Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 " I planned to match the upper with a POF lower for compatibilities sake." AFAIK, there is no need for that. Any quality lower will fit the POF upper. -color does not match perfectly? Its a shooting match, not a coloring match or a beauty contest. -what if there is a little upper/lower play? So what. It has ZERO to do with accuracy or reliability and even the POF might wiggle. Again, so what? I find my loose-fit ARs are the most reliable ones. As far as lowers, I like RRA and its important that DPMS supports our sport (among others). Will never own a Colt; they don't give us squat & try getting warranty work out of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) Are you talking about these uppers? http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-416pricelist.htm Personally the AR's that I have have been pretty good in terms of reliability. All the malfunctions I have had have been due to f'd up ammo or bad mags. None of which would be fixed with a piston driven AR. But just by looking at them... I would tend to believe that the added reciprocating mass of the piston would tend to make the gun "recoil" more. A # of shooters (me included) run lightened bolts and use an adjustable gas block to help tame the AR's recoil impulse. I don't know if it translates to a piston system but most shooters also run a 20" gas system due to the fact that a 16" gas system tends to be more violent. It looks like the POF uppers don't have a 20" version. And the handguards... I know it looks cool but I don't want teeth on my handguards and it's very rare that you will see a shooter using a VFG. Yes you can use the plastics ones handguards but they aren't free floated. Also I think most "good" shooters use a technique where the weakhand rests more or less towards the front of the handguard and the arm is bent but almost straight out. Optimally, this technique requires a 20" handguard. Edited January 12, 2006 by Religious Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 The rarity of use in competition is that 99% of AR's are not piston, and the parts available for competiton are regularly cleaned so there is no worry about the carbon deposits. I don't believe that the use you would ever put on a regular gas setup will ever become unreliable. I have heard of M-16's with so much gunk in the reciever that the only open space is where the hammer swings forward. They just keep on adding lube. As said before, the reduced mass carriers and adjustable gas blocks will greatly reduce the recoil that you expierence in a normal AR and these benefits will not be available to you with the POF upper. Depending on the ranges you shoot, a floating barrel may or may not be a factor on what kind of accuracy you require. The ability to float the barrel in a conventional AR can lead to greater accuracy. The barrel flexes more with a gas piston setup. I think you'd be paying more for the novelty of a gas piston upper than the greater reliablilty. I personally wouldn't spend the money for a gas piston upper. However if this is what you want, go for it, I don't think it would hold you back untill you reached a very high level. As to the vertical fogregrip, I find that it works well for close stages, as this is all we have in MI. As the range increases, I find less and less use to the VF. Though I still like my 4 rail handguard with an attached sling mount, I can wedge it against barriades for a stable position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I'm not sure exactly what a gas piston upper is supposed to fix. With good mags my ARs are super reliable, parts are abundant, life is good. That being said, the best reason to buy a gun is because you want it. I'd guess that less than 1% of 3 gunners are using gas piston uppers because they are a solution looking for a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark01 Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 Okay. Things I didn't consider. An adjustable gas block and a free floating barrel - things I want but won't get with the gas piston system. I need to take another look at the Clark setup. Religious Shooter - Yes those are the uppers. However they don't show an 18" Go the gallery section and it is displayed in the first photo. It sells for $1075. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) Some piston-driven uppers have their systems set up so that they weigh the same as a standard bolt carrier and associated reciprocating equipment. However, as others have stated, a lighter system is preferred for competition. Those uppers shown on the left on the POF site have free-floated barrels. The 18-inch one shown in their Gallery is also free-floated. Edited January 12, 2006 by 300lbGorilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) Those uppers shown on the left on the POF site have free-floated barrels. The 18-inch one shown in their Gallery is also free-floated. Yah but they have teeth . What I was trying to say is that I would prefer a free-floated barrel with a handguard that had no fixed rails like that. Of course I may be mistaken in that they are not fixed and those rails are actually removable. Mark01, I looked at the gallery and noted that apparently Tim Milkovich shoots one of their uppers. He ocassionally posts here on BE as Tim3Gun. You might want to PM him concerning his experience with the system. Edited January 12, 2006 by Religious Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark01 Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 (edited) I see the Tim Milkovich model - 16". Isn't 18" the minimum with 20" being preferable for most? Edited January 12, 2006 by Mark01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Mark, I have a 16" POF piston driven upper and I have to say that I'm quite pleased with the setup. POF makes a very high quality product and I dare say that it is worth the price. Let me try to address some of the other concerns voiced in this thread to balance the opinions. " I planned to match the upper with a POF lower for compatibilities sake." It's definitely not needed. Any standard lower will work just fine in addition to the POF lower. I would tend to believe that the added reciprocating mass of the piston would tend to make the gun "recoil" more. I was definitely curious about this aspect of the system. I was of the same opinion until I tried the upper. After shooting about 800 rounds (500 full-auto & 300 semi-auto), I can say that the upper doesn't recoil more, just differently. The POF does seem to cycle smoother when compared to a standard AR, but not enough to make a difference. I could only really notice the difference when I would shoot the POF and put it down and immediately pick up a standard AR and shoot it for comparison. If I just handed you a POF and didn't tell you what it was, I think you'd have a real difficult time noticing the difference. As said before, the reduced mass carriers and adjustable gas blocks will greatly reduce the recoil that you expierence in a normal AR and these benefits will not be available to you with the POF upper. For the most part, this statement is correct, but from what I understand, you can change some components to reduce the recoil. The POF operating rod has different size vent holes on either side of the rod. One side is for normal use and the other side has smaller vent holes for use with a suppressor. Although I haven't tried it out yet, I think the system has the potential to used the reduced size vent holes with a lightened carrier and provide the same reduced recoil benefit as a standard AR, but like I said, I haven't actually tried it yet. The ability to float the barrel in a conventional AR can lead to greater accuracy. The barrel flexes more with a gas piston setup. This statement is not entirely accurate. The flexing of a barrel does not make it inaccurate. All barrels will flex, some more than others. As long as the barrel returns to the same spot, it will be accurate. Conventional wisdom says that the less the barrel flexes, the less the chance it will deviate from it's original position, hence, greater accuracy potential. But, as long as a barrel returns to it's original location, the rifle will be accurate (all other factors being equal) Another issue to consider is that the bullet will be out of the barrel before the rifle barrel flexes, so don't worry about it too much. As to the vertical foregrip My feelings on this issue are well documented! I'm not sure exactly what a gas piston upper is supposed to fix....I'd guess that less than 1% of 3 gunners are using gas piston uppers because they are a solution looking for a problem. I'm not so sure that the piston driven uppers are fixing any problems, but I do see them as the next evolution in the design. Obviously, the standard AR platforms can be very reliable, but remember, a lot of 3-gunners are not running standard AR's. They use all types of "race" accessories like adjustable gas blocks, lightened bolt carriers, aluminum bolt carriers, reduced power buffer springs, lightened buffers, etc.. the list goes on. When you start changing components to make a "race" AR recoil softer and be extremely accurate, some of components like the gas system, bolt carrier mass, buffer spring strength, etc.. that have some extra power to their systems to compensate for a dirty, oil-less AR are now gone. With the proper attention and maintenance, it still shouldn't be a problem, but I see the piston driven uppers as providing that extra bit of reliability by having a system that really runs clean and greatly increases time frames between cleanings. If you clean your standard AR after every match, then you won't have any problems. But, if you like to push off cleaning and maintenance until after several matches in a row, then you have the increased potential of having a malfunction based on a dirty rifle. This is not an issue with the POF system. I have yet to clean my rifle and the chamber area is almost what I would call pristine. I agree that a very small % of shooters use this style of upper, but I think it's mostly due the fact that they are relatively new (1-2 years) to the market. The standard AR has been around for over 40 years. Give them some time, there's a place for them. What does all this mean? For me, I'm not dropping my standard AR systems anytime soon, but I am exploring some new technology and seeing if it has a place on our sport. I think the new piston driven system is more reliable than the standard AR system, but the two main issues I see are, Is the piston driven systems additional reliability enough to justify dropping the standard AR system? In a word, no. For what we do in competition, cleaning and maintenance is an integral part of our sport. Most successful competitors recognize this and take proper care of their equipment. With proper care and mainenance, the standard AR system is just as reliable as the piston driven system. If I were overseas in an environment where my life depended on my equipment? I would probably opt for the piston driven system as the round counts are higher overseas and the opportunity to clean and maintain your equipment is not always at a time or place of your choosing. That extra bit of reliability could make the difference between taking a hit or making a hit. I'd rather have that extra bit of insurance. The second issue is durability. How durable is the new system? Only time will tell. The standard AR system is pretty durable, but it does have it's quirks. The jury is still out on the durability of the piston driven system and it will be for a long time, but it looks promising considering that the piston driven systems only adds three additional parts to the standard AR system and all three of the parts are copied from the FAL design. A design, by the way, that has been in use longer than the AR system, so it seems to have some pretty good genetics and history standing behind it's design. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsimpso1 Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Erik covers things pretty well. The big reason behind people building piston/operating rod AR's is because the direct gas impingement system is percieved as unreliable by some. After all, it does dump powder ash all over the inside of the upper. Not that I have seen that contribute to problems. I have seen some filthy AR's that work great... My personal view is that the upper of a competition gun should come apart every couple hundred rounds for barrel and chamber cleaning anyway, as an accuracy maintenance issue if for no other reason. Now, if you only ask your rifle to shoot 4 minutes, you can skip cleaning the barrel. But plates at 200 yards gets tough with a 4 minute gun. While you have the upper off and apart, clean the bolt, carrier, and upper. No big deal. I have had two with high end barrels, float tubes, and tightened up sights for Highpower, one service grade rifle, a shorty in the bedroom closet, and my Tactical class competition rifle. Reliability issues have been limited to Frankenmags (during the AWB days, Bushy was selling 30's shortened to 10 rounders with bolts in the sides - avoid them), a misguided attempt at ballasting the carrier, and a somewhat rough chamber on the shorty. Now shorties are generally less reliable than the 20" and 18" guns with the rifle position gas manifold. When I polished the chamber on the shorty, it too became 100%. It is true that you should keep a new carrier key, bolts, gas tube and roll pin on hand for the time when you clean the rifle and notice the tube is worn or the carrier key bolts have loosened. Now that is just $30 in spare parts laying around that will save yoyu the wait for parts to arrive. How does that compare to the extra $$ in the POF? When properly installed and adjusted, gas tubes and carrier keys last as long as the barrel, which is 7000 to 9000 rounds. One other reason to stay with the direct gas impingement system. The whole accuracy equation with AR's is to float a good barrel. After that is sights and furniture and recoil reduction, not rifle accuracy. Yeah, no bedding, no gas system tuning or cleaning intervals of a fussy piston like in the M1A etc. This is because with the direct impingement system, by the time the gas impulse travels down the tube and reaches the carrier, the bullet is in free flight. With gas piston systems, the gas mechanism feels the gas and starts a vigourous bending vibration to the barrel, and the muzzle can then be in a different place on each shot while the bullet is making its exit from the bore. This vibration just does not have to be dealt with in conventional AR's. Nobody in High Power uses the gas pistons - they give up some accuracy. Now admitedly, High Power does demand more accuracy than a tactical match with a few "long" shots at 100 yards, but if you are shooting at a place that puts flasher targets at 200m or more you will prefer the more accurate system, find or load ammo especially for those long stages, learn you zero and wind drift, etc. Billski Oops, I just re-read my note. Just because a barrel is not cleaned does not mean that a 1 minute barrel will shoot 4 minutes, but 2 1/2 minute rifle might... The other misses in my note I will leave up to others to point out. Billski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 At the Tactical Repsonse Fighting Rifle class I shot last year (1800 rounds / 2 days), the one guy shooting the POF upper was having malfs very often. FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paule Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Gas piston systems for the AR have been offered as the great solution to the perceived problem of direct gas for almost 25 years. this is the 4th generation of piston upper systems. They are getting better each time and are certainly fun to play around with. Time will tell if they prove to be more reliable over time. Previous ones have worked well, but have not been as accurate after the round count goes up. The new designs have the advantage of better materials and are lighter, so this may not end up being a problem. Meanwhile, occasional cleaning and proper lubrication make current day AR's some of the most reliable semi-autos around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tewlman Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 you mean we're supposed to clean them???!!!!!??!! O.K., that's were i draw the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 The only time I really wish I had a piston upper is when I'm pounding rounds through the suppressor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 The cans do get the mags dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Not even for cleanliness, just to keep the gas out of my face/lungs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I guess what I've never understood about the gas piston being so much more reliable than direct impingement is that the gas fouling still has to go somewhere. In an AR it can distribute itself in a nice big action, in a gas piston it's limited to the end of the gas piston area. I've shot FALs to the point I had to crank the gas system all the way open to keep it running, didn't seem all that more reliable to me, just gets a different part of the gun dirty. As a side note, my Army buddy and I decided the best way to clean the carbon off the FAL piston was to stick it in the dirt/sand and rotate it! Worked pretty well, too! Probably not a recommended method of cleaning. My apologies to Great Britain for messing up one of your rifles, thanks for the kidney pie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotm4 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) The gas piston AR systems may be great in combat where you may have awhile between cleanings which is great for reliability but not great for accuracy..............YMMV. Direct gas is more accurate. I'd put a direct gas KAC SR-25 Mk11 Mod O up against any piston system rifle of the same value and bet the KAC would win hands down. Edited January 30, 2006 by gotm4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 I just got a POF 16 incher with the slimline foreend. The first such version ever made! Normally they have 18 inch barrels but I wanted to try a 16. I zeroed it and shot it in a match. After about 200 rounds here are some initial observations. 1) It sure is clean in the receiver 2) Too me, it feels like the 16 in POF bucks around much less than a 16 in. standard AR. 3) It definitely recoils differently from the direct gas system 4) No malfunctions 5) I sure liked the manueverability of the 16 in the dark house left over from SMM3G 5) It won a match already I've only shot it to 50 yards with an EOTech and American Eagle 55 gr. Ammo so I have no idea as to its accuracy potential but it has a good 1 in 8 5R barrel. For what it is worth, it grouped well at 50. I put a real scope on it today and will report back after I've shot some groups with it at some real distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3gunr Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 Just as S&W is coming out with their AR15, SIG is tooling up to make a gas-piston AR type rifle. So there will soon be another player on the field.....this time with a piston driven gas system 3gunr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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