Grip Question: Proper Left Wrist Angle

[bw31]

I am right handed and right eye dominant.

My previous grip had the first joint of my right thumb resting on the base of the thumb on my left hand. In other words, the tip of my right thumb would come up to the first joint of the left thumb.

After watching Matt Burkett's video, I realized this was incorrect.

Instead, I should have the joint of my right thumb resting further down on my left hand toward the base of the hand near the wrist. In other words, the tip of my right thumb should come up to the base of the left thumb.

But using this new grip, I feel my left wrist is unconfortably fowarded tiled. Moreover, this grip seems to cause me to pull my shots to the left.

Any ideas on what I am doing wrong?

[eric nielsen]

Some people's hands [like mine] will match up on the gun different depending on how straight you can push out your arms [keeping a locked-forward support wrist] and also how much the beavertail area of the gun lets your stronghand thumb get around.

If you change to a gun that makes you bend your arms more, you may need to rotate your left hand back & down a little, which is fine as long as it's still locked. Recommend shooting with your left wrist STRAIGHT [took me 2 surgeries to learn this] [edit: straight when looking from above. Locked forward & down when looking from the left side]

I like to put my right hand back and to the right compared to some guys - looks a lot like the pictures in Brian's book. Other people say, get your right forearm in line with the gun. Whichever works for you. I found with my new STI that the width of the beavertail kindof forced me into the in-line forearm grip, which I don't care for. Luckily the gun is blued not chromed & I made angled frame cuts around the beavertail & narrowed it down, like you see in the photos of Dan Bedell's guns [which are beautifully detailed, btw]

It's all about how well your hands are sticking to the gun. There are people out there with hands that are wildly different from yours or mine. Use MattB's dvd as a starting point & make minor changes if you need to.

Edited January 18, 2006 by eric nielsen

[boo radley]

I am right handed and right eye dominant.

My previous grip had the first joint of my right thumb resting on the base of the thumb on my left hand. In other words, the tip of my right thumb would come up to the first joint of the left thumb.

After watching Matt Burkett's video, I realized this was incorrect.

Instead, I should have the joint of my right thumb resting further down on my left hand toward the base of the hand near the wrist. In other words, the tip of my right thumb should come up to the base of the left thumb.

But using this new grip, I feel my left wrist is unconfortably fowarded tiled. Moreover, this grip seems to cause me to pull my shots to the left.

Any ideas on what I am doing wrong?

Not really, but I can identify. I started with *exactly* the same grip you describe based on another shooter showing me: "Look! See how your two thumbs fit together?" (press them together, staggered so that the right thumb is about 1" behind the left thumb).

I shot like that for about 7 months, then took a Frank Garcia class, and the first thing he did was correct my grip to the position you describe: the right thumb is now staggered back about 2" or more.

Yeah, it felt really weird at first, but after a month, and a lot of dry and live fire, the correct grip felt normal. Beyond this anecdote, I'm not qualified to say anything: if you think your grip still isn't correct, maybe you can have someone take a picture and post it here?

[Paladin]

If you change to a gun that makes you bend your arms more, you may need to rotate your left hand back & down a little, which is fine as long as it's still locked. Recommend shooting with your left wrist STRAIGHT [took me 2 surgeries to learn this]

I like to put my right hand back and to the right compared to some guys - looks a lot like the pictures in Brian's book. Other people say, get your right forearm in line with the gun. Whichever works for you. I found with my new STI that the width of the beavertail kindof forced me into the in-line forearm grip, which I don't care for. Luckily the gun is blued not chromed & I made angled frame cuts around the beavertail & narrowed it down, like you see in the photos of Dan Bedell's guns [which are beautifully detailed, btw]

It's all about how well your hands are sticking to the gun. There are people out there with hands that are wildly different from yours or mine. Use MattB's dvd as a starting point & make minor changes if you need to.

Hi Eric:

What do you mean left wrist straight?

Also my right hand is angled to the right just like yours with the 2 hand grip..and not in line with the forearm.. as a result of this I had to practice extensively to relax the right hand as in the position to the right, my right wrist tended to overpower the left and push the gun low and left as the tension level increases aka shooting faster.

[eric nielsen]

Paladin

Looked in the mirror at the grip I use now, its *mostly* straight. Left hand & wrist are about as straight as they can be and still shoot right-eye/right-handed. If I was to shoot left-eye/right-hand, as some with cross-dominant eyes do, then it would be totally straight.

Just a guess, looks like a 10 or 15-degree angle from forearm to hand; my wedding ring is in line with forearm. Some guys [Joe Kessler comes to mind] shot with a really bent support wrist, like 30 or 45-degree angle, their rings & fingers would be outside the line of their forearm. I can't shoot like that now without pain.

[Paladin]

Paladin

Looked in the mirror at the grip I use now, its *mostly* straight. Left hand & wrist are about as straight as they can be and still shoot right-eye/right-handed. If I was to shoot left-eye/right-hand, as some with cross-dominant eyes do, then it would be totally straight.

Just a guess, looks like a 10 or 15-degree angle from forearm to hand; my wedding ring is in line with forearm. Some guys [Joe Kessler comes to mind] shot with a really bent support wrist, like 30 or 45-degree angle, their rings & fingers would be outside the line of their forearm. I can't shoot like that now without pain.

Okay. Thanks, I understand what you are saying now. To get my wrists as straight as possible I extend out, though this position feels forced and I notice that in tapes of myself that I don't stay in this extended position.

[bw31]

I am right handed and right eye dominant.

My previous grip had the first joint of my right thumb resting on the base of the thumb on my left hand. In other words, the tip of my right thumb would come up to the first joint of the left thumb.

After watching Matt Burkett's video, I realized this was incorrect.

Instead, I should have the joint of my right thumb resting further down on my left hand toward the base of the hand near the wrist. In other words, the tip of my right thumb should come up to the base of the left thumb.

But using this new grip, I feel my left wrist is unconfortably fowarded tiled. Moreover, this grip seems to cause me to pull my shots to the left.

Any ideas on what I am doing wrong?

Not really, but I can identify. I started with *exactly* the same grip you describe based on another shooter showing me: "Look! See how your two thumbs fit together?" (press them together, staggered so that the right thumb is about 1" behind the left thumb).

I shot like that for about 7 months, then took a Frank Garcia class, and the first thing he did was correct my grip to the position you describe: the right thumb is now staggered back about 2" or more.

Yeah, it felt really weird at first, but after a month, and a lot of dry and live fire, the correct grip felt normal. Beyond this anecdote, I'm not qualified to say anything: if you think your grip still isn't correct, maybe you can have someone take a picture and post it here?

I think my grip is "correct" insofar as it matches with the pictures from Brian Enos' book and from Matt Burkett's video.

Nonetheless, I feel like my left wrist is contorted at a somewhat uncomfortable angle. I am just wondering if anyone else felt this way and has a solution.

[Carl Provan]

Try this, go to the range and using 3 targets set up at 7, 15, and 20 yrd, do a triple 6 drill. First using your old grip and pay attention to the amount of time it take to regain your sights. Then repeat using the grip example from Matt B. Compare your times and hits. As Eric said you may need to adjust it to fit your hands. I have a blues STI, the bluing is worn off just in front of the slide stop. This is from my left thumb. Rotating the left hand down as Matt describes is, for most uncomfortable at first but most shooter that I have shown that grip to, will start to use it all the time. And feel more comfortable with it as time goes on.

Carl

[Loves2Shoot]

If your wrist is not fully locked out you will not be able to take advantage of the strength that comes from fully locking out your wrist. It may feel weird but it works.

Take your weak hand wrist and fully lock it out (forward.) Next, take you strong hand and try to lift your weak hand up. Now try the same thing with your weak hand not locked out. You will see it is MUCH harder (if not impossible) to lift the wrist if it is locked out.

[kevin c]

There is also the issue of consistency and repeatability.

It'd be nice to have the gun snap back to exactly the same point after each shot. If, in the firing position your wrist is locked at the extreme end of its range of motion, then that is as far forward as it should be able to go as you recover from firing the shot, and you will be back where you want to be. If your wrist isn't locked, then when the pistol comes back you can overshoot your desired position.

Locking your wrist forward is like shooting off a bench or with a Ransom Rest - you are using mechanically (in this case anatomically) solid means to increase the stability of your shooting position.

Edited January 10, 2006 by kevin c

[aggie dad]

This thread has really helped me a lot, as I have only been shooting for a few months and was using the grip that bw1 intially described. It felt to me like I was doing something wrong, but I wasn't sure what? Now when I move my left hand more forward and align the tip of my right thumb with the base of my left thumb, and have a more cocked/locked left wrist, I am feeling so much more solid and able to hold steady. I can't wait to get out to the range and try this proper grip. In the mean time, need to reprogram that muscle memory. The other thing that was happening to me with the old grip, the recoil/muzzle flip was causing the boat tail to bang against the knuckle of my right thumb where the thumb joins the hand and it was starting to feel like I was getting a bone bruise.

Thanks

Doug

[andrewcolglazier]

This thread has really helped me a lot, as I have only been shooting for a few months and was using the grip that bw1 intially described. It felt to me like I was doing something wrong, but I wasn't sure what? Now when I move my left hand more forward and align the tip of my right thumb with the base of my left thumb, and have a more cocked/locked left wrist, I am feeling so much more solid and able to hold steady. I can't wait to get out to the range and try this proper grip. In the mean time, need to reprogram that muscle memory. The other thing that was happening to me with the old grip, the recoil/muzzle flip was causing the boat tail to bang against the knuckle of my right thumb where the thumb joins the hand and it was starting to feel like I was getting a bone bruise.

Thanks

Doug

I have seen it happen more than I can count. A shooter hears about the "thumbs forward" grip from a forum or an article or a DVD or a magazine, and using pictures provided, change their hand position, but perceive (and receive) no tangible benefit.

The "thumbs forward" grip has a lot more going on than just where you put your hands in relation to the pistol or each other. There are a lot of anatomical dynamics going on there to help control recoil and trigger control. To really get the benefit of this grip, I would suggest workng together with someone who has been using the grip properly for some time and who can perform "hands-on" testing to see if you have got it right.

Andy Colglazier

[aggie dad]

I have seen it happen more than I can count. A shooter hears about the "thumbs forward" grip from a forum or an article or a DVD or a magazine, and using pictures provided, change their hand position, but perceive (and receive) no tangible benefit.

The "thumbs forward" grip has a lot more going on than just where you put your hands in relation to the pistol or each other. There are a lot of anatomical dynamics going on there to help control recoil and trigger control. To really get the benefit of this grip, I would suggest workng together with someone who has been using the grip properly for some time and who can perform "hands-on" testing to see if you have got it right.

Andy Colglazier

Andy, You always offer very good insight; sent Len an email tonight to see what sort of classes he has coming up. My initial perception of this slight change in grip seems very positive from dry firing, but the proof will be at the range.

Thanks,

Doug

[HSMITH]

Doug, head out to the range. If you have a dot sight equiped handgun take it. Shoot with every grip you can think of, move your hands around on the gun and watch the dot/sight. Shoot with 'soft arms' for every combination, just enough arm to keep the gun up and on target, no more. You will find that there is a point, more defined by strong hand position but influenced by weak hand position, where the sight lifts and comes RIGHT BACK to where it started. Add some grip pressure in one hand, then relax a little and add in the other. Work the grip pressure around and see how fast it comes back. Start by lowering grip pressure all the way to almost nothing, then increase from there. VERY few people need to increase grip pressure from where they currently shoot.

A dot sight, even if it is on a 22, makes the visualization of this tons easier to grasp and to work on. If a buddy has a dot scope and you don't borrow it. It really doesn't matter what gun you are shooting or the load, the principals are the same and you can learn tons from just a few minutes.

If no dot sight is available it can definately be done with irons, just shoot at the backstop with no target and WATCH the front sight through its entire travel. It is a little harder to see everything but it can be done.

Edited January 21, 2006 by HSMITH

[aggie dad]

Doug, head out to the range. If you have a dot sight equiped handgun take it. Shoot with every grip you can think of, move your hands around on the gun and watch the dot/sight. Shoot with 'soft arms' for every combination, just enough arm to keep the gun up and on target, no more. You will find that there is a point, more defined by strong hand position but influenced by weak hand position, where the sight lifts and comes RIGHT BACK to where it started. Add some grip pressure in one hand, then relax a little and add in the other. Work the grip pressure around and see how fast it comes back. Start by lowering grip pressure all the way to almost nothing, then increase from there. VERY few people need to increase grip pressure from where they currently shoot.

A dot sight, even if it is on a 22, makes the visualization of this tons easier to grasp and to work on. If a buddy has a dot scope and you don't borrow it. It really doesn't matter what gun you are shooting or the load, the principals are the same and you can learn tons from just a few minutes.

If no dot sight is available it can definately be done with irons, just shoot at the backstop with no target and WATCH the front sight through its entire travel. It is a little harder to see everything but it can be done.

That sounds like a good idea; I'll try to borrow one and go through this test. Also, doesn't pulling your elboes in some also help to stablize and return gun to same starting point versus having your elboes bowed out??

Doug

[HSMITH]

Doug, I really don't know the answer to that. I think your build has a lot to do with what is going to work best for you, and you will have to try it both ways and some points in between. I shoot about midway between elbows 'out' and elbows 'down' with my arms at about 90% of full extension but what works best for you might be a lot different.

[kevin c]

Anatomy does vary enough that hsmith's comments are what's pertinent - you'll have to try out different positions to see what works best for you.

As far as theory goes, I've been told that bringing the elbows down and in has effects of both locking your grip and tightening it. You can try this by lacing your fingers together with your arms out in your freestyle shooting position. Compare elbows up and down. In the down position you'll feel more pressure at the heels of the hands for the same amount of grip strength.

Of course, I've also been told that bringing the elbows down too far will make the gun and hands break upwards in recoil much more, whereas having your elbows out will allow you to absorb the recoil straight back.

So again, experiment and find what works for you, given your own unique anatomy.

One last comment, (worth exactly as much as what the rest of the advice above cost you): Many shooters, and probably most of the most successful ones, have their shooting techniques evolve with time. Whatever you find that works for you now, don't be afraid to change it.

[Pierruiggi]

Many shooters, and probably most of the most successful ones, have their shooting techniques evolve with time. Whatever you find that works for you now, don't be afraid to change it.

I have changed techniques (mostly grip and stance, but also movement techniques, draw, reload, etc.) countless times, as a matter of fact, I can't remember not working on changing something on the last 8 to 10 months, not because I felt what I was doing was wrong, but because it "HAD" to be a "better way"... More cant on the wrist, less cant, more pressure, less pressure, reload high, reload low, scoop on the draw, get a full grip before lifting the gun... What's interesting, is that it gets to a point where I get to full circle and I'm doing the same things I dismissed some months ago to adopt a "better" technique; but at the same time, my skill level has been steadily (if rather slowly... ) progressing, which puts things into perspective on the real importance of technique...

But, the other day I noticed, and I was surprised to notice that; some things remain always the same, like, find the target... shoot the target.

Every day, I feel like finding out more and more that physical technique matters less as a shooter gets better (as ilogical and contrary to common sense that may seem), or at least, past a certain point, the point where the shooter is "beyond it all".

[caspian38]

Look like what your doing ...? Notice the tilt on the weak hand wrist slightly downward in order to absorb recoil. I think this is ONE of the most efficient ways to grip the gun...but do what ever works best for your personal shooting style.

See attached PIC ...

[Ron Ankeny]

Grip the gun and hold it horizontal to the universe, then open your support hand. Notice the angle your fingers make with the ground. Most of the grip gurus preach the fingers should be at about 45 degrees. As you develop the grip, you will feel the muscles stretch along the top of your forearm.

I tried for three years to tilt my left wrist further forward. Every morning I would hold my arm out straight and rotate my wrist forward and the fingers downward. I also performed the stretching exercise thoughout the course of the day. No matter what, the grip was extremely uncomfortable due to a bit of carpal tunnel, arthritis and lack of flexibility, so I resorted to a more comfortable grip with my fingers making perhaps a 25 degree angle with the ground. Then the lights came on. My wrist was locked and the tendons were set with a lot less forward rotation than most folks require. The down side is high thumbs that can contact the slide if I am not real careful.

[cliffy109]

Grip the gun and hold it horizontal to the universe, then open your support hand. Notice the angle your fingers make with the ground. Most of the grip gurus preach the fingers should be at about 45 degrees. As you develop the grip, you will feel the muscles stretch along the top of your forearm.

I tried for three years to tilt my left wrist further forward. Every morning I would hold my arm out straight and rotate my wrist forward and the fingers downward. I also performed the stretching exercise thoughout the course of the day. No matter what, the grip was extremely uncomfortable due to a bit of carpal tunnel, arthritis and lack of flexibility, so I resorted to a more comfortable grip with my fingers making perhaps a 25 degree angle with the ground. Then the lights came on. My wrist was locked and the tendons were set with a lot less forward rotation than most folks require. The down side is high thumbs that can contact the slide if I am not real careful.

I was about to start a new topic until I read through this one. This is the same concern I have. Try as I might, I can't seem to get comfortable with thumbs forward. It doesn't make sense to me. I've heard the phrase "if it hurts, you're doing it right." How can that possibly be condusive to good shooting? If it hurts, my body is going to resist it.

Here's my problem. I'm hit a plateau. I'm always at the upper end of Sharpshooter or the lower end of Expert in IDPA. I've been at this level for quite a while and I'm looking for ways to advance. To this end, I'm taking a class from Scott Warren, but the grip thing is bugging me.

I've always shot a modified Weaver, with the support arm only slightly bent, but definately pulling with the strong hand pushing forward. My grip with the weak hand is unstrained in its wrap around the stong hand. The weak thumb actually rides on top of the strong thumb which is on the safety. Both thumbs participate in disengaging the safety. This grip does leave part of the grip pannel exposed and unused. The tips of my strong fingers make contact with the meat of my weak hand, creating a good bit of contact friction.

The class was last Sunday and will be completed this Sunday. In between, I shot a USPSA match. I made an effort to use the thumbs forward, iso grip but found myself fumbling between my old grip and the new one. The new one just doesn't seem natural.

So what do I do? Is thumbs forward so important that I must learn it to improve? Am I really handicapping myself if I don't?

Here are pics of the grip I'm talking about, compared to what isn't comfortable.

[eric nielsen]

Have someone watch you shoot from your left side [or tape yourself shooting] & see if the gun shifts in your left hand - AT ALL.

If it shifts during recoil, even just one shot out of ten, then you are handicapping yourself. If you can put enough grip tape near the bottom-rear of the left grip - seems like that's the place your left hand is making the most contact - then you MIGHT get your preferred grip to hang onto the gun thru recoil without slipping. But I'd put the chances of that as much lower than if you use the "ipsc grip" with left thumb well forward. But possible...

Honestly the ipsc grip doesn't work all that great unless the top half of the left side is grip-taped or stippled. I worry about that when I see cops trained to use that grip on their box-stock Glocks.

If your gun slips position on either hand while shooting, then you're not really playing the same game as most of us. Be like shooting a round of golf with no woods & no wedge.

Edited March 18, 2006 by eric nielsen

[Pierruiggi]

Honestly the ipsc grip doesn't work all that great unless the top half of the left side is grip-taped or stippled. I worry about that when I see cops trained to use that grip on their box-stock Glocks.

I don't agree with this. Of course grip tape (or stipling, or other friction enhancing treatments) work better; but the technique remains effective with a box stock gun.

At least, in my experience.

[Loves2Shoot]

On the bottom picture you are squeeing down with your thumb, that can weaken the grip and add tension. It looks like you need some help getting the right grip, it it is close, but doesn't look optimum. The top grip is inconsistant and will make shooting more difficult as you are not applying pressure to the pistol in a way that will effectively manage recoil and have the gun return as fast or consistant.

[Pierruiggi]

top grip is inconsistant and will make shooting more difficult as you are not applying pressure to the pistol in a way that will effectively manage recoil and have the gun return as fast or consistant.

Not to mention being a tension factory...