Special Request At Chrono Stage?

[Religious Shooter]

I barely made major on my pistol at the '05 USPSA 3G Nationals.

I did some chronoing today on new loads (200 grains). The powder load on these are relatively small for the case and there seems to be a lot of left over empty space.

When I chronoed I did one set where I pointed the muzzle down and came up horizontal slowly and fired. The other set I went muzzle up and came down slowly and fired.

The point was to see if there was a difference in having the powder down towards the bullet (muzzle down) vs. having the powder against the primer (muzzle up). I got:

LOAD I (4.45 gr WSL, 200 grain FMTJ Precision Delta, 1.17" OAL)

Muzzle mixed....... 174.48

Muzzle down... 169.98

LOAD II (4.25 gr WSL, 200 grain FMTJ Precision Delta, 1.17" OAL)

Muzzle up....... 166.12

Muzzle down... 164.78

LOAD II (4.25 gr WSL, 200 grain FMTJ Precision Delta, 1.15" OAL)

Muzzle up....... 164.5

Muzzle down... 163.41

As you can see from the data there is a trend that suggests that starting with the muzzle up with these loadings the load will have greater a PF vs. starting with the muzzle down.

When I go to the chrono table can I ask them to point the muzzle up before shooting? Or is there some type of rule against this?

Also should I clean and oil the barrel? Leave it somewhat fouled but put some oil? Or should I just leave it fouled when I go to chrono? Which barrel condition promotes better velocity?

[Matt Cheely]

Couldn't you just add a little more powder?

[herky]

You can ask, but don't expect your request to be honored. Saw it happen one time at a State match. When asked, the Chronoman said "Are you going to tip the muzzle up before every shot you take in the match?" Enough said!

[davidball]

When YOU chrono them, use the muzzle down procedure, that way your testing is the worst possible scenario. Make sure your loads make major with the procedure that produces the lowest PF.

[Religious Shooter]

You can ask, but don't expect your request to be honored. Saw it happen one time at a State match. When asked, the Chronoman said "Are you going to tip the muzzle up before every shot you take in the match?" Enough said!

I would have said "yes". The gun tends to points up when I draw... after every single shot the muzzle goes up and then down... so yes I do tip the muzzle every time I take a shot in a match.

[LPatterson]

You can ask, but don't expect your request to be honored. Saw it happen one time at a State match. When asked, the Chronoman said "Are you going to tip the muzzle up before every shot you take in the match?" Enough said!

I would have said "yes". The gun tends to points up when I draw... after every single shot the muzzle goes up and then down... so yes I do tip the muzzle every time I take a shot in a match.

If in fact your muzzle is pointing up when you draw then you should practice improving your draw stroke to stay horizontal.

Don't expect the Chronoman to change his procedure just because you ask.

[kimel]

Just doing some rough guestimate stats on your data (since I don't have the raw data I can't do much more) I doubt your differences are statistically significant. It is what is known in statistical circles as an "interesting trend".

I have been told that the use of magnum primers will help to alleviate position sensitivity. But if you are near max load (which I doubt you are) back them off 10%, switch primers, and work back up.

You might also switch to a powder that is position insensitive...at least according to the sales literature. Titegroup is "supposed" to be position insensitive as are the Vihtavuori pistol powders.

Either way, you are cutting it too close. I honestly doubt you will be able to feel the difference between what you are shooting now and a PF 168 load.

[Flexmoney]

You can always ask.

Chronoman is usually a pretty nice guy. The Match Director often will pick a Chronoman based on his ability to get along with others, and his experience in handling a variety of guns. After all, he is asking shooters to let him fondle their favorite piece.

But, don't go expecting Chronoman to have to jump through hoops to get your gun to make power factor.

Take care of that yourself...far before you get to the range. Have enough cushion so that the match chronograph and the procedures are a non-issue.

I wouldn't oil or clean the barrel. You gun isn't likely to be in clean and oiled condition when you go to the Chrono stage (in fact, I believe the Chrono procedures allow for them the take a few "fouling shots" to ensure that your barrel isn't is perfect condition).

-----------------

As an aside...I got a copy of the "chrono tips" that the Chronoman from the Nationals uses. He suggest not to tip the shooter's barrel up or down. Basically, try to shoot every body's blaster the same. Then, their can't be claims of "he shot my gun wrong".

Edited December 24, 2005 by Flexmoney

[Kimberkid]

When we ran Bianchi matches we did this as a courtesy. If your stuff didnt make it, but was real close, we would start over and point it upwards before each shot. If you made it then, you were in. No sense in ruining someones match and them shooting for no score, when all it takes is 2 more minutes of time, and a very minor inconvience. You still had to make it, but we would give you the benefit of the courtesy of a second try. It might be different since Bianchi doesnt have minor/major. You may be better off just adding another .1 of powder.

[Religious Shooter]

Just doing some rough guestimate stats on your data (since I don't have the raw data I can't do much more) I doubt your differences are statistically significant. It is what is known in statistical circles as an "interesting trend".

Well there were three different loads (with varying OAL and/or powder charge). To me it suggests a trend. If it is only "interesting" then I guess the chronoman shouldn't object to it? You should test it out for yourself on your next chrono outing.

I think tou are basically "increasing" the burn-rate of the powder if you are stacking it against the primer. Which I believe will tend to drive the pressure up all other things equal.

You might also switch to a powder that is position insensitive...at least according to the sales literature. Titegroup is "supposed" to be position insensitive as are the Vihtavuori pistol powders.

Have you test Titegroup out? Titegroup is supposed to be very close to WSL. I believe the same loading of 4.4 grains of WSL is very close to what Titegroup needs.

Either way, you are cutting it too close. I honestly doubt you will be able to feel the difference between what you are shooting now and a PF 168 load.

The load I shot at the Nationals was a 180gr load that clocked at 168PF at home with the muzzle at mixed (i.e. indifferent) orientation prior to the shot. At Vegas they fired three shots... which failed ... and then another three shots... which failed. It came down to the last shot where you either pulled the last bullet (to weigh it and hope that it is heavier than the stated bullet weight) or shot it (where you hoped the velocity was fast enough to replace one of the other previous shot).

So if you are shooting a 168 PF load you may want to reconsider. My load at the Nationals clocked in at 165.01 PF with the last bullet fired.

My main purpose is asking about the subject is what I could have done to sway the results if I ever came to this situation again. If the shots had been fired prior to the muzzle being held up... I wouldn't have gotten in that mess.

[Religious Shooter]

You can always ask.

Chronoman is usually a pretty nice guy. The Match Director often will pick a Chronoman based on his ability to get along with others, and his experience in handling a variety of guns. After all, he is asking shooters to let him fondle their favorite piece.

Yup. The guy was nice. On the last shot he said he would shoot it after the winds had died down.

But, don't go expecting Chronoman to have to jump through hoops to get your gun to make power factor.

Take care of that yourself...far before you get to the range. Have enough cushion so that the match chronograph and the procedures are a non-issue.

Well I don't think asking the guy to tip the barrel up before he shot it as jumping through hoops. It literally takes about 2-3 seconds additional per shot. Three shots per string ===> 6-9 seconds in additional time total.

And yes I should have had a better cushion. I had a 3 PF cushion. Which technically was enough since I did pass.

And yes, to all those that suggested it, I have already bumped up my 180 loads by .1 grains.

I wouldn't oil or clean the barrel. You gun isn't likely to be in clean and oiled condition when you go to the Chrono stage (in fact, I believe the Chrono procedures allow for them the take a few "fouling shots" to ensure that your barrel isn't is perfect condition).

I don't remember if he fired fouling shots or not. But the way the chronoing was run at this match you had an (not explicit) opportunity to clean out and/or oil your barrel (if you so wished) prior to the chronoing.

Even if they fire a fouling shot or two, it doesn't compare to the fouling that the 30-50 or whatever number of shots you had fired prior to the chrono stage.

If in fact your muzzle is pointing up when you draw then you should practice improving your draw stroke to stay horizontal.

Don't expect the Chronoman to change his procedure just because you ask.

With my drawstroke the front end tends to be up as I tend to drive the front sight to the target (I don't think you can drive the front sight well if you have the gun horizontal). At the very end of the draw the gun becomes horizontal and the rear sight comes into alignment with the front.

So what I am doing is not good?

When/where does your draw become fully and remains horizontal?

[Chuck Anderson]

Since you asked and it's your thread. I turn my gun horizontal almost immediately after clearing the holster. Then drive it to the target. I prep the trigger as I present (heavy triggered Glock) and I've had a few go off a bit early. One was a D hit, two were A's and one hit a 6" plate at 15 yds. All before they came up to eye level. This way has always worked best for me.

[.40AET]

Just a thought and it may not be your problem, but I would want to eliminate the possibility. I had the same problem as you. Worked up my loads to 169pf at home and went to matches and could barely make major. I would get some friends that have chronographs and take your chrono out and test it against others. I shot mine against 2 others and mine was 3pf high. I bought a new one and everthing has been much better. I was dead on with the results from 2 major matches last summer.

I would also test the magnum primers. They have a longer flame pattern that should help ignite the powder that is laying on the bottom of the case. Looking at your data, when you shortened the OAL of the round, the results were much closer together. If the shorter round runs well in your gun then stick with it.

Good luck

[woodchuck]

A lot of "funny" things can happen at a chrono stage. I'm sure most of you know someone who spends weeks developing a load that would chrono consistantly at 165.X - only to end up shooting minor at the big match.

There are so many variables with chronographs and bullet velocities, that I just don't want to worry about how I finish on the chrono stage. Sure, the chrono dude can help you out by fiddling with muzzle direction, etc. ........ but it's entirely up to him whether he does or not.

I don't like to take chances, so I add 0.1 grains to what I think I need. That - and some candy for the chrono guys has always worked for me.

[Precision40]

A lot of "funny" things can happen at a chrono stage.

I don't like to take chances, so I add 0.1 grains to what I think I need. That - and some candy for the chrono guys has always worked for me.

+1

For a big match I don't even bother making it close, I just automatically add .2-.3 of a grain. I don't understand why folks want to get as close to 165 as they can. There is little to NO difference between 167 and 172pf.

[McNeil]

Why worry about it ? Just play it safe and get used to alittle more recoil.

I have been chronoman at three area matches and its the buttheads that cut it really close that ruin a volunteer's day, working a match. I have been yelled at, cursed at and abused by shooters that claim to have chronoed a perfect 165 at every other match.

My calibration at the three matches that I worked has always been Todd Jarrett.

I ask him what he will chrono at, and he always comes within one tenth of what he says. He is a festidious reloader with a tremendous attention for detail. He shoots at about 180 PF every time. The chrono stage gives the shooter many chances to make the declared PF. and the results always give the competitor the benefit of the doubt.

The average major PF is 173 and the average minor pf is 132.

-Neil