Rocky Mountain 3 Gun

[Religious Shooter]

However, as a practical point carrying a cocked and locked pistol on ‘all’ stages may just complicate things.

Love you long time

Mell

So I guess Helmut and Cactustactical have changed their minds.

Well... or at least they have admitted there is a problem.

But it's all good right? It's all moot since the mandated carry of the sidearm will be that either it will be a) totally empty or carried Israeli style. Given the choices, I'm 100% confident that the sidearm won't go bang if dropped.

[Cactustactical]

RS,

no I have not changed my mind, far from it. As one who wears and carries a gun a large percentage of the time while engaging in a variety of activities including rapid movement, I am surprised by the concern shown by some of the forum denizens.

But, as I said earlier, for those who have the concern, there apparently will be the option of carrying the pistol unloaded. So, that should allay most concerns.

Edited January 18, 2006 by Cactustactical

[gl]

Scott and everyone,

There definitely is no intent to weed anyone out of the match with the mention of the loaded pistol concept or the holstered on each stage rule we have discussed. And that means we did not intend to weed out those we 'don't want in the match because of that persons equiptment choice'.

If you like to shoot 3Gun, we want you to shoot 3Gun with us if you can!

Guy Hawkins

P.S. As JJ mentioned, I do think it will be easier for the RO's if we do not have a loaded chamber on non-pistol specific stages.

[MKuhn]

There is a problem, however its not carrying a charged side arm.

All other things aside, we call it a game when it is in reality a live fire tactical simulation that is competitive by scored out come. If we are there for some other motivation (other than after match things like beer ect) explain what it is.

Sin surly

Mell

[kurtm]

I say enough speculation on rules and intent, let's hear from the match directors them selves, like Blain or Mike Fields. What is up and where is the web site? KURTM

[Helmut]

no changing of minds here.......but if you read mell's reasoning of everyday people carrying. That is correct in every way.

But everyone has there own opinion of things. That is what is great about this disscussion board.

The match will be great no matter if hot carry for side arms or chamber empty. As long as I know that I have a back up, I am happy. But that is up to the Match Director and we will have to live with it and STILL have fun.

Take Care

[Chuck Anderson]

I don't shoot matches as a live fire simulation of anything. I do it because I enjoy shooting at these matches in challenging stages and hanging out with and meeting new people. If anybody thinks these are by any means based on tactical situations they are sadly mistaken. None of the shootings that I have been involved in ever required a Beta C-Mag or half the crap we carry when shooting these matches. You want it to be tactical, wear body armor. I have yet to see anyone do this at a three gun match and I have yet to see anyone knowingly go to a gun fight without it, well except for the dead bad guys and I'd just as soon not be associated with them.

[Zak Smith]

You want it to be tactical, wear body armor. I have yet to see anyone do this at a three gun match

Stage 7 RM3G 2003.

Every shooter wore body armor provided by Point Blank.

[SinistralRifleman]

You want it to be tactical, wear body armor. I have yet to see anyone do this at a three gun match..

I regularly shoot wearing body armor as part of the testing and evaluation of products we sell. Two of my co-workers are even more hardcore than me and wear hard armor plates at every 3 gun match.

Now that you mention it a time incentive for wearing armor might be nice

-5 seconds per stage for soft armor worn the entire match

-5 seconds per stage for hard armor plates worn the entire match

-5 seconds per stage for kevlar helmets worn the entire match.

Edited January 18, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[MKuhn]

I agree with most every thing you say, I shoot for the fervor.

Love shooting these matches and I love the people in them. A beta mag; me nether, there just not reliable enough. The dead bad guys; no s**t. If its crap your carrying I wouldn’t carry it either.

The only thing I disagree with is that these stages ARE often based on real tactical situations. Read the names on some on the stage descriptions.

Affectionately

Mell

Edited January 19, 2006 by MKuhn

[RiggerJJ]

Zak, that wasn't body armor in '03, it was just a heavy vest that MIGHT stop a 9mm pistol projectile...

Well, as of yet nobody has addressed how to do the unexpected transition thing I brought up. How often would this happen, maybe once or twice during the entire match? I don't see the advantage of it over just taking the penalties. Just how do you transition from a long gun to a hand gun on a stage when it could be anywhere during the stage? Run to a abandonment box and do it there? Sling it? (Please no!) Hand it to the RO??? (again Please no!)

example:

shooter; <exasperated after fumbling with broken long gun, hands/points long gun at RO> "request transition!"

RO; <screaming like a girl and hitting the dirt> "STOP!"

It seems that the ONLY reason to have manditory hand gun carry is that it used to be done at SOF? What kind of reason is that? This ISN'T SOF, it is RM3G! And the popularity of 3gun has grown exponentionally. I have seen LOTS of shooters at RM3G that are brand new 3gunners, their 1st match! Do we really need to add another problem to the equation??? I'm pretty sure no... I say, leave the best 3gun match of the year ALONE! It ain't broken!

I'm outa Afganistan for awhile but still in theater, flying and hauling cargo/troops into Afganistan and Iraq. And yes, I DO wear body armor and a kevlar hat... but not at 3gun matches. I'm certain I don't want to have to start wearing it as an RO.

JJ

[SinistralRifleman]

Let people sling long guns completely empty action locked open, or set it down facing in a safe direction (into a berm) completely empty. Both we acceptable practices at our match, and neither was a problem...I do know several people were happy to be able to finish the stages with their sidearms, even if it was a short delay in the transition process.

[Zak Smith]

Let people sling long guns completely empty action locked open,

On an AR15, it will be very easy for the bolt release to be bumped while slung.

[SinistralRifleman]

Let people sling long guns completely empty action locked open,

On an AR15, it will be very easy for the bolt release to be bumped while slung.

If it does that after they've cleared it and locked it open, I wouldn't consider it a problem.

[IanLock]

Hello everyone.

i have read all the comments and i feel that i need to say something.

Firstly the obvious....

Is it not fair to say that, we as a colective of competative shooters/3 gunners are competent enough with a firarm, wether it is 1, 2 or 3 at a time to safely deal with them and not drop them or shoot anyone. ??? its fair to say that we are competing at relativly high level and should be capable of this??? That is why we have RO's. To stop us from doing stupid things on that rare occasion we are about to screw up??

Personally i have no problem carrying hot all day or on a stage. If you turn up to a rifle stage for example were there is no requirment for a pistol with an empty rifle and wait for the command LAMR you make ready the rifle and wait for the buzzer.

Why does the RO even need to see your pistol at all. Unless you use it during the that cof because you decide you need to, then the RO could ask you to show clear afterwards.

As for when/if you transition to your pistol, i think you should just you retain your long gun. Just keep it down range in the hand your not using you pistol with and there you go. Show then all clear when your finnished. If you need to bin the long gun right at the start due to what ever reason, then in the burm or some where where you ar not going to DQ yourself or endanger anyone else...... If called planning how you will shoot the stage.! Cover you ASS!! and think about the what ifs!!

As for going prone with a pistol........well......personally, as long as its NOT drawn from a prone postion, so as no itchy triger fingers get to near anything while you draw pointing back down range. , i dont think theres any problem with it.

If the troopers wana wear all that stuff let um do it, and give some benifits for it. the average shooter thinks its enough of a pain in the arse just carrying a range bag from the truck to the stage... Hats off to em.

And perhaps for the average guy who works in an office all day, has no need to or carnt wear a gun all day, they go to these matches in the great out doors so they can do just that, live the dream and feel good about them selves for a few days because of it. Sorry if work in an office and this is not you, but im sure you know what i mean.!!?!!?

So all in all if the whole thing slows people down and makes them think about the stage a bit differently the so what?? if it makes them think a bit more about their gun handleing then GREAT.

Thanks for reading.

My 2 cents.

(i await the fall out.)

[CWG.223]

Well if we cannot carry a hot pistol to transisition to when our AR goes down, how about a slingshot and a few ball bearing in our pockets. But on a little more serious note, since the name of the game is 3 Gun, why not make all the stages require all 3 guns. I can understand everyones point in the matter but reguardless of how safe everybody is, dumb people will still do dumb things. The issue of going prone with a pistol, and it being pointed up range is something to consider, but if you are dumb enough to stand directly behind a prone shooter knowing his or her hot sidearm is pointed in your direction, and you don't move.....like I said earlier Dumb people will do Dumb things. Their is no magical solution which is going to make everybody happy. My opinion is all 3 guns on all stages. I mean after all it is the name of the game.

[Religious Shooter]

The issue of going prone with a pistol, and it being pointed up range is something to consider, but if you are dumb enough to stand directly behind a prone shooter knowing his or her hot sidearm is pointed in your direction, and you don't move.....like I said earlier Dumb people will do Dumb things.

You don't have to be immediately behind a shooter to get f'd up by a bullet.

When you were behind the line either waiting for your turn, shooting the shjt with the rest of the shooters, cleaning your gear, or even walking or driving around going to another stage are you at all times aware of what the current shooter is doing?

[Religious Shooter]

Is it not fair to say that, we as a colective of competative shooters/3 gunners are competent enough with a firarm, wether it is 1, 2 or 3 at a time to safely deal with them and not drop them or shoot anyone. ??? its fair to say that we are competing at relativly high level and should be capable of this??? That is why we have RO's. To stop us from doing stupid things on that rare occasion we are about to screw up??

If you take a look at some of the posts above... people apparently drop their guns all the time.

I'd say collectively 99% of the time we are competent enough. But 1% of the time we F up.

The RO's can't stop all of the messed up things a shooter might do. If you take a look at most major USPSA/IPSC matches there are always DQ's. Proof positive that the RO's can't stop all things that will get you DQ'd.

You can say that there haven't been many or even no DQ's during RM3G matches. But in response I would say that RM3G RO's just aren't hard-asses or even soft-asses. Last year I heard an RO admit that he could have DQ'd a number of shooters on his stage but did not.

We are all human and we aren't all 100% safe all the time.

Personally i have no problem carrying hot all day or on a stage. If you turn up to a rifle stage for example were there is no requirment for a pistol with an empty rifle and wait for the command LAMR you make ready the rifle and wait for the buzzer.

The Whittington Center is a "cold range". Blaine said this during the shooter's meeting or ending meeting. You can only be hot when you are up. So unless the Center changed their policies or made exceptions you can't be walking around (while not up) with a hot sidearm.

[CWG.223]

You are correct. You don't have to be directly behind the shooter to get hit by a stray bullet. When you come to think of it, we can get hit by a stay bullet a variety of ways. I guess the only way to make sure everybody stays 100% safe is to cancel the match, confiscate everyones guns, and ban competitive shooting period. My point being, there is no way to make this, or any sport for that matter, 100% safe. Accidents will happen no matter how many rules are changed or created. Hot handgun - not Hot handgun, really doesn't matter. Anytime a firearm is within a 5 mile radius of anyone there is the possibility of someone getting hurt no matter how safe everyone is. The safer the environmnet, and the firearm handlers, the less that risk is, but no matter there will always be a risk. You have to accept it. If people say that it's a safe range or environment and nothing will happen, they are stupid. I am a Firearms Instructor for a rather large agency. I have to teach people, most of which whom have never held a weapon, to shoot. No matter what I do, What I say, accidents happen. The issue going prone with a hot handgun. Personally it doesn't bother me. I hope we can run with a hot handgun like at the Cav Arms match if the targets to be engaged could be hit with it. It would be pointless to have a hot handgun on a stage where all the targets are 100yds or further away. Either way I'll be there.

Edited January 20, 2006 by CWG.223

[Religious Shooter]

Anytime a firearm is within a 5 mile radius of anyone there is the possibility of someone getting hurt no matter how safe everyone is. The safer the environmnet, and the firearm handlers, the less that risk is, but no matter there will always be a risk. You have to accept it. If people say that it's a safe range or environment and nothing will happen, they are stupid.

I don't know if you are just speaking in general or if you are speaking about the posters on this thread. But of the people who have posted against the practice... I don't think any of them (including myself) are saying that there is no risk at all in this sport. I was initially against the whole thing because to me the added risks outweigh the benefit of the thrill of running around with a loaded sidearm and the ability to engage targets when a primary long gun goes down.

And as I have asked previously, how many times has your long gun gone completely teats up to the point that you can't continue? I truly believe that if a shooter takes care of his/her long arm properly the chance is almost nil that it will go totally down on them on a stage. Is the added risk really worth the 1 in 250 or 1 in 1000 or 1 in whatever chance that you will get to use your sidearm?

I am not saying that the sport was 100% safe to begin with and that the introduction of a mandatory hot sidearm suddenly makes it unsafe. I am fully aware that the sport is not 100% safe to begin with. What I am saying is that the practice's benefit does not outweigh the risks and consequences.

It would be pointless to have a hot handgun on a stage where all the targets are 100yds or further away.

There you go. At least we can agree that it's (almost) pointless to have had a mandatory hot sidearm on a number of last year's stages.

Early in this thread I asked the people who were for it to tell us how they were going to benefit from carrying a hot sidearm on last year's stages. Nobody took the bait.

On the long range rifle stages you would have had little to no benefit (The benefit on these stages? Too feel cool! ) but all the added risk. Sure you could have walked your rounds in. But is the added risk really worth the ability to walk pistol rounds on 200-330 yard targets?

On the shotgun stages you could have engaged the clay targets with your pistol which in turn would increase the chance of damaging or destroying the holders. I wonder how many pistol shots would the shooter have needed to clear all those clay targets. You also could have engaged those clay targets up on the hill that had no sure backstop.

[PacMan]

...

You can say that there haven't been many or even no DQ's during RM3G matches. But in response I would say that RM3G RO's just aren't hard-asses or even soft-asses. Last year I heard an RO admit that he could have DQ'd a number of shooters on his stage but did not.

Okay, I think this is going far enough! We do not DQ people for minute infractions, only gross safety violation, meaning that the shooter is just plain idiotic! A slight breaking of the 180 (when we have open range) is not justifiable in most cases to DQ'd a competitor, a verbal warning had been more than enough for the competitor to pay more attention. Would you prefer all of us to behave like some of the ROs from the match prior to this one (whom took pride in chalking up DQ's)? Competitors paid good money to enjoy a match, you guys/gals are our customers, and for ROs to act like 'range nazis' is not good business. Like it or not, there are always some gray areas in the interpretation of rules, so we leave it up to the ROs to use his/her judgement when making a call/no call.

If you take a look at most major USPSA/IPSC matches there are always DQ's. Proof positive that the RO's can't stop all things that will get you DQ'd.

I disagree, just because USPSA/IPSC matches always have DQs, it does not mean ROs can't stop people from being stupid and unsafe or vise versa. Perhaps it has to do with how much of a hard-ass does a match director want his/her ROs to be. Some rules can be absolute, some can't, as long as the application of rules is FAIR and CONSISTENT.

Your "fair-minded" RO.

HD

[Colt1991]

As an FYI for the life time of the RM3G match there as only been 1 dq and that was the first year the match was held when the RO's were shooting and the RO's pistol came out of his holster in the chopper that was used that year.

[Keith]

The Whittington Center is a "cold range". Blaine said this during the shooter's meeting or ending meeting. You can only be hot when you are up. So unless the Center changed their policies or made exceptions you can't be walking around (while not up) with a hot sidearm.

RO's were encouraged to carry hot sidearms at the 2005 match. Preferably loaded with snakeshot for critter control.

[Religious Shooter]

Okay, I think this is going far enough! We do not DQ people for minute infractions, only gross safety violation, meaning that the shooter is just plain idiotic! A slight breaking of the 180 (when we have open range) is not justifiable in most cases to DQ'd a competitor, a verbal warning had been more than enough for the competitor to pay more attention. Would you prefer all of us to behave like some of the ROs from the match prior to this one (whom took pride in chalking up DQ's)? Competitors paid good money to enjoy a match, you guys/gals are our customers, and for ROs to act like 'range nazis' is not good business. Like it or not, there are always some gray areas in the interpretation of rules, so we leave it up to the ROs to use his/her judgement when making a call/no call.

I think you read too much into my post. The RO's behavior at the RM3G match (to me personally) was just fine. Please reread my post again without any bias.

...

You can say that there haven't been many or even no DQ's during RM3G matches. But in response I would say that RM3G RO's just aren't hard-asses or even soft-asses. Last year I heard an RO admit that he could have DQ'd a number of shooters on his stage but did not.

Apparently you believe from the above paragraph that I thought that the RO's were bad. Please let me make it clear: I thought the RM3G RO's were just fine ... just different.

I don't know what your frame of reference is. But if you call somebody a "hard-ass" or any kind of "ass" in my parlance that would be a negative. For me a synonym for "hard-ass" is "d*ck" (and no... that's not "duck"). I WASN'T calling the RM3G RO's any of these. If you take a look again I wrote they "aren't hard-asses or even soft-asses." And if you use my synonym the "RM3G RO's just arent d*cks." And again that's not "ducks."

IanLock's point was that we were competent enough that all of the shooters can be hot all the time...

...

Is it not fair to say that, we as a colective of competative shooters/3 gunners are competent enough with a firarm, wether it is 1, 2 or 3 at a time to safely deal with them and not drop them or shoot anyone. ??? its fair to say that we are competing at relativly high level and should be capable of this??? That is why we have RO's. To stop us from doing stupid things on that rare occasion we are about to screw up??

Personally i have no problem carrying hot all day or on a stage. If you turn up to a rifle stage for example were there is no requirment for a pistol with an empty rifle and wait for the command LAMR you make ready the rifle and wait for the buzzer.

From IanLock's view all the shooters can be hot while lugging all their gear from the parking area to stage. They can be hot while looking at all the goodies at the vendor tables. They can be hot when they go potty. They can be locked and loaded while driving around.

My point is that we can't all be safe all the time. The greater bulk of the shooters at RM3G also shoot USPSA matches. It's largely the same pool of shooters. So if you see all those shooters DQ in a USPSA match but don't in RM3G? RM3G has little or no DQ's not because the RM3G shooters are just elite bad-asses... it's because the RO's have different standards.

So say a shooter that goes to the USPSA match and breaks the 180 on a square range, that drops their gun, etc. goes to an RM3G match. That same shooter is all of a sudden 100% safe (by all standards) when he shoots in Raton? I say no. That same shooter that drops the gun... that breaks the 180 in a square range... etc. is liable to do the same thing in Raton.

...

I disagree, just because USPSA/IPSC matches always have DQs, it does not mean ROs can't stop people from being stupid and unsafe or vise versa.

I'm not saying that ROs cannot stop shooters from doing stupid stuff.

What I am saying is that they can't stop the shooters from doing stupid stuff 100% of the time. Are you saying that the ROs can prevent 100% all the stupid stuff from happening?

The quote you took umbrage with was my response to Ianlocks view that we should run a hot range. Are you saying that RM3G should be a hot range/match?

[George]

So if you see all those shooters DQ in a USPSA match but don't in RM3G? RM3G has little or no DQ's not because the RM3G shooters are just elite bad-asses... it's because the RO's have different standards.

So say a shooter that goes to the USPSA match and breaks the 180 on a square range, that drops their gun, etc. goes to an RM3G match. That same shooter is all of a sudden 100% safe (by all standards) when he shoots in Raton? I say no. That same shooter that drops the gun... that breaks the 180 in a square range... etc. is liable to do the same thing in Raton

Absofrickinlutely! Bahaviour is the shooters purvey. The RO's either call it or they don't. There is no such thing as a safer group of shooters. We are all one big pool and we all go to the same matches to a large degree. The level of actual adherence to the rules in play is the point here and at some matches adherence is just plain looser.