Calling (seeing) Vs Feeling The Shot

[iweiny]

As a new USPSA shooter (~ 1 year), I have been blessed with all the great resources available to me, including this site and Brians book. So right from the start I have focused on "calling" my shots.

Lately I have been feeling that I don't really see the shot off. I have seen (ie called) my shot. (I saw the flame leave the barrel type of stuff). But I wonder if I have really just "felt" the shot more all this time. (I think I have a real blinking problem when the gun goes off.) So by feel I know if I have jerked the trigger or something like that. Last match I caught myself looking for the holes since the targets were so close! I could have shot my self.

Anyway, my accuracy has seemed to suffer some lately (although not that bad) and I am shooting faster than ever. So I also wonder if I am seeing faster and just not conciously "seeing".

Anyone else feel this way about their shooting?

Ira

[Crusher]

If accuracy falls by the wayside and you are faster you are not seeing. What you are likely doing is letting your finger dictate the initiation of subsequent action (transition, movement, additional shots on targets) not your eyes and you "feel" the shot instead.

Awareness (at least for me) came slowly but it did come and when I was able to "see" (actually become aware of what the gun was doing with some guidance and my input) the feeling was like watching a slow motion video, time was not something I was aware of at a consious level.

Keep your focus on the gun and use your eyes to maintain the focus, dry fir drill will go a long way to refine the mechanics of your actions and during live fire drills focus all of your energy on "seeing" (becoming aware) of what the gun is doing, specifically the sights (or dot) when the shot breaks. If you see "the flame, barrel sort of stuff" from the gun your getting closer toward your goal but not there yet, keep looking and when you finally DO see, remember what it looked like then repeat.

Try never to look for holes on the target untill you walk with the RO to score at the end of the stage, by looking for holes your wasting time and focus, that is better directed on the gun and its functioning while you are shooting.

Good luck and keep "looking" you will get there.

[Jake Di Vita]

All I'll say is that is doesn't matter if you see it or feel it, as long as you know exactly where the bullet went every single time.

[Flexmoney]

I would preface Jake's statement a little bit.

We get feedback from our senses. Somewhere in the process of data gathering, transferring, and, interpretation...the process can break down. Perhaps, and easy way to think of this is that our senses can lie to us. Or, we can will out senses to experience things in the manner that we expect...or pre-determine...

We are very visual creatures. I think vision gives us the most accurate feedback, and that is why we can trust it so much. But, even our visual process can break down. (example: "Miss? I swear might sights were right in the middle of that popper.")

For me, the best information that I can get...information that allows me to move on to the next thing quickly...is the knowing that I get from seeing the front sight lift out of the notch on recoil.

Calling the shot isn't seeing muzzle blast...it isn't looking for holes...it isn't wondering why your accuracy has decreased.

Calling the shot is knowing where the bullet will impact...even while the bullet is in the air on it's way to the target.

Ideally, you should be able to tell how much your sights get disturbed by the motion of you pulling the trigger.

--------------------

[short version]

Feeling sucks. If you don't learn to truly call your shot with vision, then you will have a hard time getting past B-class.

[cautery]

EVEN IF your brain doesn't screw with the "feeling input" you receive, it is still an order of magnitude slower than SEEING...

Nerve impulses travel wayyyyy slower than light. So, using feedback from anywhere in/on your body that has a longer nerve pathway than your optic nerve is going to be slower...

[Jake Di Vita]

Now we are also measuring time in the thousanths of seconds.

No matter how you shoot...if you can KNOW where the bullet will impact the instant you pull the trigger, you are fine.

Really, unless you are shooting with your eyes closed you are always going to have some input from your vision.

For many targets I won't even have the gun at eye level but will be looking over the slide. I'm not calling the shot in the conventional sense of the term, but I still know where the bullet is impacting.

[Pierruiggi]

For many targets I won't even have the gun at eye level but will be looking over the slide. I'm not calling the shot in the conventional sense of the term, but I still know where the bullet is impacting.

Yes.

Sights are only points of reference we align in order to "read" bullet impact. They're nothing else.

Our eyes and brains can and will read other points of reference for the same purpose of knowing were will the bullet will hit. Granted, these other POR, like top of slides, compensator, even (in an accustomed individual) the aproximate angle of ourselves (arm, body, etc... Ever try hitting something like a pebble or whatever with a garden hose on the first burst?) are not the fastest or more precise for difficult targets; but they're more than enough for other, closer, bigger, easier targets.

Some months ago, I had the misfortune of a staked front sight fly off merely hours before a (local, small) match. I ran some experiment shooting like that, and trust me, it takes more time to put those points of reference aligned (in my case, rear sight and top of slide), but you CAN shoot and hit 8" plates at 25yds like this (that's what I shot at, as an experiment, not in the match itself) and you call the shot all the same. And, ironically, I shot them flawlessly, seeing and experiencing every moment of the shot. My theory is that it happened like that because I wasn't expecting anything shooting like that, I wasn't waiting for a front sight to lift in such and such manner... I was merely seeing and reading the shots.

Edited December 18, 2005 by Pierruiggi

[XRe]

I ran some experiment shooting like that, and trust me, it takes more time to put those points of reference aligned (in my case, rear sight and top of slide), but you CAN shoot and hit 8" plates at 25yds like this (that's what I shot at, as an experiment, not in the match itself) and you call the shot all the same.

All sights really are (besides a formality... ) are a user-friendly set of references to determine where the bullet's going to go. Any set of references can work, depending of course upon how fine a distinction you can make in how they're arranged.

All calling a shot really comprises is knowing exactly where that bullet is going to hit at the moment it's fired - generally, one uses some reference as to where the bullet's going (the sights, for instance), and observes what their relationship is to the desired impact point at the exact moment in time when the bullet leaves the barrel... Right??

Those references don't have to be visual, but the non-visual references are rather vague and imprecise - that's why the general advice is to learn how to call shots using the sights, and to be very aware of how the sights are lined up at the exact moment you see the front sight start to lift - cause that's the best visual indicator we have on approximately when the bullet has left the barrel. Yes, you can call shots by feel - and yes it's easy to mis-call shots by feel. If that's the only way you can call shots, you're going to find progress difficult, in my experience.

And, certainly, as Jake and Pierruiggi say, you don't have to use the traditional sight picture - there may be more effective ways to call a shot visually, depending upon the target. That's what Brian's trying to get at when he explains the 5 different focus types that he experiences when he's shooting. Usually, though, unless you have an equipment failure (sight falls off, dot breaks, whatever), these things are usually only desirable on close, wide open shots... but they're still visual, and they're still called shots, based on experience with the gun and that shooting focus....

Use the speed you have as a benchmark on what you're physically capable of doing in terms of driving the gun. Strive to catch up with your eyes - and strive to let your eyes do the driving. Soon you'll be shooting at that speed, or faster, and shooting all As... I've had the same sorts of fits and starts that you're describing

Edited December 18, 2005 by XRe

[kevin c]

No matter how you shoot...if you can KNOW where the bullet will impact the instant you pull the trigger, you are fine.

Really, unless you are shooting with your eyes closed you are always going to have some input from your vision.

For many targets I won't even have the gun at eye level but will be looking over the slide. I'm not calling the shot in the conventional sense of the term, but I still know where the bullet is impacting.

So, is it good or bad that, when I push myself on dry fire draws and target acquisitions, I find the muzzle of the gun "seeking out" my point of aim? I may not have what I would consider an adequate sight picture (and sometimes there isn't a view of the sights or the slide), but at the point where I feel that I would drop the trigger, if I keep the gun at that point and move my head to acquire the sights, I find that the proper alignment is there (a good hit).

I'm trying to break out of B class. Is this one of the techniques, then, that GMs like Jake use, that your index is so good/precise that seeing the POA can be enough, without seeing the sights in alignment, or at all? I can do this sort of Type One or Type Two Focus on in-my-face targets, but at ten or more yards? Should I see more of the sights to be more sure of the shot (take the time to move the gun to let me see the sights), or can I go with the flow and trust what I feel? Doing the latter would require that I break out of the desire to see the sights, and would mean a lot of rethinking and retraining.

I just want to make sure that I'm not going down the wrong path, here.

Kevin C

Edited December 18, 2005 by kevin c

[iweiny]

--------------------

[short version]

Feeling sucks. If you don't learn to truly call your shot with vision, then you will have a hard time getting past B-class.

This is exactly what got me thinking on this topic. I am a high C with my last 2 classifiers up in B-class. I don't plan on stopping in B...

Thanks so much for all the comments. I definatly do need to work on things. I know that one thing I have not done as much of lately is bill drills. I think I need to start them up. I think the theory that you start to shoot faster than you can blink was helping me to really experience seeing the shot off.

Once again thank you,

Ira

[BSeevers]

See what you need to see to make the shot

Edited December 18, 2005 by BSeevers

[Flexmoney]

So, is it good or bad that, when I push myself on dry fire draws and target acquisitions, I find the muzzle of the gun "seeking out" my point of aim? I may not have what I would consider an adequate sight picture (and sometimes there isn't a view of the sights or the slide), but at the point where I feel that I would drop the trigger, if I keep the gun at that point and move my head to acquire the sights, I find that the proper alignment is there (a good hit).

I think it is good that you are building up your index...and feel you can trust it to get you on target.

It sounds like you are sighting over the top of the gun? Depending on the target difficulty, you might easily get away with the visual ques that you have available (arms, hands, the gun itself on the target).

I'm trying to break out of B class. Is this one of the techniques, then, that GMs like Jake use, that your index is so good/precise that seeing the POA can be enough, without seeing the sights in alignment, or at all?

Where is your vision? What are you seeing?

"Can be enough"... How sure are you? How precise is you shot calling? What is your level of "knowing".

"Enough" can be a pretty relative term. You can do enough to make the one shot, quickly. But, do you have the feedback, do you "know" enough, to allow you to move on to the next shot..the next transition...are you comfortable leaving a position shooting steel last?

You don't want to be in the middle of shooting the second array of targets and have lingering doubt in your head on whether you threw a mike on the first array.

Knowing is fast...because you can more to the next thing. Knowing is less tense...because you lack doubt.

How much you know depends on the data that you allow yourself to collect and interpret through your senses.

I can do this sort of Type One or Type Two Focus on in-my-face targets, but at ten or more yards?

If you aren't Robbie Leatham...or seriously in contention to beat him...then you most likely need to be on your sights at 10y. But, if you have developed and refined your index to the degree that you are on at that distance, then you may not have to be on the sights. You might trade off making the shot (from index) in exchange for a greater degree of knowing.

Should I see more of the sights to be more sure of the shot (take the time to move the gun to let me see the sights),...

This, I think, is a bit harder for people to get their head around...

It doesn't (shouldn't) need to take any more time to use the sights. If your index, grip and stance are refined, then your sights will be right there for you. You won't need to go looking for them. You won't need to take extra time to find them.

...or can I go with the flow and trust what I feel?

You tell us. I am guess that, since you are asking, then you aren't really sure?

I can't tell you guys how calm and confident I feel when I allow myself to shoot with my vision giving me maximum input. That shows up in the scores for me.

Edited December 18, 2005 by Flexmoney

[kevin c]

Hmm...

Part of what I get here is that seeing confirms that the gun is on the target, though "seeing what I need to see to make the shot" may be, and probably is, very different for me (a middling B class limited shooter) compared to Jake or TGO or Kyle. I might need more of a classic sight picture on any given target than they do. But by refining my mechanics/technique in dry fire, and confirming what hits I get with what kind of vision in live fire, and by seeing that change over time as I progress, I may eventually need to see "less" or differently for the shot then as opposed to now.

The trust/knowing thing is big. Seeing is sure, but how much each person needs see to be confident may vary with their skill and experience.

More dry fire to refine the technique, so that I will be confident that the sights will be there in whatever way I need them for the shot. More live fire so that I am confident that I know what I will need to see in order to make the shot.

Thanks, Ira, for bringing this up. Thanks, Kyle and Jake, for your always valuable comments. Lots to think about.

Kevin

Edited December 19, 2005 by kevin c

[benos]

The goal should be to "call by seeing." This is best because you are then operating without doubt. And precise information is always better than - "I don't think that one was good."

"Calling by feeling" should be a back-up technique only. e.g.: "I'm not really sure where that one went so I'd better shoot another."

"That one 'felt' good" is never as good as "that one went there."

be

[grayguns]

Ira, you see more than your trigger control skills allow you to expoit. Everyone can aim well enough, align precisely enough, and hold steady enough (or stop the gun enough) to hit anything on the range. Allowing yourself to let the gun to fire when the sights are on the target is the problem, not having the sights on the target.

You can only shoot as accurately as you:

1) reset, prep and press the trigger, or

2) can slap the trigger with adequate followthrough (which is really an abscence of technique rather than something you do) to keep the sights aligned through the shot.

In reality you'll need both trigger control styles to be really successful (it's amazing how clear this all is to me now that I can no longer shoot!), but pick one as your primary method. It probably doesn't matter that much. The latter is "faster", but you won't win many group shooting contests or hit the clutch shots consistently if you can't learn to reset and prep the trigger immediately after the previous shot.

I feel the best way to speed up your ability to fire the pistol accurately is to mentally link your trigger reset & prep to the sight return during recoil, and the trigger press (or controlled slap as may be) to the appearance of an acceptable sight picture on the target area. This is done through dry firing with visualization, and through very disciplined practice that reinforces seeing the sights in the A-zone and which excludes making shots by Braille. Once this mental link is made (and it takes some effort over time), your subconscious will fire the pistol when the sights look "right" for the shot at hand.

That suggests a problem: nothing tells you to fire the gun when you aren't seeing the sights, or whn you are tracking them all the damn time between targets. Uncalled misses are often the result of tracking the sights, rather than moving your eyes to aquire the next target and then allowing the sights to follow. It's also slower, by far.

In any event, I suggest you train yourself to always see what you need to see, as clearly as you can allow yourself to for each shot in practice. Visual feedback is what teaches your mind to "feel" the gun, even when the sights aren't visible or you do decide not to use 'em.

There's a few tricks I can suggest, though I dislike the concept of tricks in general. Cut the A-zones out of your targets and tell yourself "nothing but net." Detach from the results and stop scoring your hits as you shoot. I know you do that, Ira. Tape over your timer. Just focus on getting your trigger control up to the speed of vision, and you'll get there.

Our newly revamped Dry Fire and Safety Packet goes into this at length. You have the older one from May, I think. Please email me for the new one. I hope you both are doing well this holiday season, and hope to see you in 2006 some time. -Bruce

[shred]

Wow.. good stuff from Bruce. Anybody that skipped over it thinking it was new-shooter advice should go back and read it again.. and again..

[iweiny]

Wow.. good stuff from Bruce. Anybody that skipped over it thinking it was new-shooter advice should go back and read it again.. and again..

+1

One of the single best things I have ever been taught in a class was from Bruce.

Bruce, great to hear from you again! And thanks for the advice. Sorry to say Lorrie replaced her Sig. Hope you will not hold it against her.

Thanks,

Ira