Random Light Strikes(maybe)/Fail to Fire Questions

[CtYankee]

Two things I noticed about your misfired primers: They don't look like light strikes (could be the lighting of your photo), they don't appear to be Federal Primers. You trigger stops shouldn't be a probelem because: 1) If your forward motion isn't enough, your trigger won't reset, and; if your reward motion is too little, your hammer won't release. As was mentioned by a couple of posters; if you have scratch marks on the side of you hammer, shim your hammer (Triggershims.com) and/or file, stone or otherwise modify your hammer so that it doesn't rub (I've done all three on a couple of revolvers). Rubbing could cause wasted energy, maybe not but not having scratches is better than wondering if it is causing a problem. And last: there is such a thing as bad primers, although nobody wants to hear that because there is no cure for that.

[DDave]

14 hours ago, revoman said:

Why not just buy Toolguy’s Rev Up Action and be done with this or send it to a real gunsmith such as TK Custom, Pinnacle Custom or some of the others who are mentioned on this forum. 
Nice thing about having expert’s work on your gun it is usually guaranteed to work. Also try going back to factory firing pin. 
Just saying 

✌

I would rather learn the issue and fix it myself making myself more knowledgeable in the long run

 

10 hours ago, GMM50 said:

You could have one problem that is causing the issue.  Fix it and you're good to go.  Or you could have several issues, each contributing to the problem.  You will then need to fix most (if not all) of them to fix the issue.  Just a real world situation. 

If it were me, I would love to jump into this problem set.  You may not have that same personality. 

I would start fixing issues one at a time, not thinking any one of them is going to fix the problem.   Swapping parts that you will need to buy anyway is probably a good plan.  Adding new parts will get expensive.

I am the same way and looking at each thing one at a time, I have fired about 100rds so far issue free with some of the suggestions here so far but im going to keeping looking and probably try a minor shim as well, I dont have any odd/noticeable wear other than what I have shown earlier. 

 

10 hours ago, ysrracer said:

OP, are you using factory ammo?

factory and reloads

 

4 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

DD:

 

Could be your picture but it sure looks like two types of primers.  Ones that are gold in color and the others silver.

 

I know -- it did it with both but what primers did you use here?

 

May be as simple as using Fed 100's.

 

GG

the silver primers shown are federal handloaded, the gold are factory Aguila

[DDave]

3 hours ago, CtYankee said:

Two things I noticed about your misfired primers: They don't look like light strikes (could be the lighting of your photo), they don't appear to be Federal Primers. You trigger stops shouldn't be a probelem because: 1) If your forward motion isn't enough, your trigger won't reset, and; if your reward motion is too little, your hammer won't release. As was mentioned by a couple of posters; if you have scratch marks on the side of you hammer, shim your hammer (Triggershims.com) and/or file, stone or otherwise modify your hammer so that it doesn't rub (I've done all three on a couple of revolvers). Rubbing could cause wasted energy, maybe not but not having scratches is better than wondering if it is causing a problem. And last: there is such a thing as bad primers, although nobody wants to hear that because there is no cure for that.

im going to try a small shim just to make sure, and im onboard with thinking it could just be bad ammo, but the amount of failure to fires doesn't add up to me when this ammo does fire in other guns

[ysrracer]

If you're shooting factory ammo in your 929, IT'S THE AMMO.

Edited June 13, 2022 by ysrracer

[DDave]

I have had this issue with both kinds, factory and reloads. I am getting closer to full reliability though with some of the suggestions already given

[gargoil66]

10 hours ago, DDave said:

I have had this issue with both kinds, factory and reloads. I am getting closer to full reliability though with some of the suggestions already given

DD:

 

One more thing concerning reliability with revolvers where the guy has replaced the factory hammer, trigger, firing pin  and springs with competitive speed parts is to use virgin brass and use it with revolvers only. 

 

I liken it to trying to use brass shot through gas guns in precision bolt rifles.  Most of the time a person will have problems.

 

GG

[ysrracer]

Factory ammo will NEVER work in a revo with lightened springs. It's just not going to happen.

[DDave]

10 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

Factory ammo will NEVER work in a revo with lightened springs. It's just not going to happen.

got it thanks, and as stated before, I do not use lightened springs, the mainspring is factory

Edited June 13, 2022 by DDave

[pskys2]

15 hours ago, CtYankee said:

Two things I noticed about your misfired primers: They don't look like light strikes (could be the lighting of your photo), they don't appear to be Federal Primers. You trigger stops shouldn't be a probelem because: 1) If your forward motion isn't enough, your trigger won't reset, and; if your reward motion is too little, your hammer won't release. As was mentioned by a couple of posters; if you have scratch marks on the side of you hammer, shim your hammer (Triggershims.com) and/or file, stone or otherwise modify your hammer so that it doesn't rub (I've done all three on a couple of revolvers). Rubbing could cause wasted energy, maybe not but not having scratches is better than wondering if it is causing a problem. And last: there is such a thing as bad primers, although nobody wants to hear that because there is no cure for that.

Probably a stacking of issues.

For one the OP stated, at some point, that the rounds fired when restruck "from a Glock", saw no mention of trying a 2nd time with the Revolver.

 

My suggestion to the OP:

1) Replace everything with stock. And shoot factory ammo, Federal, WW NOT Magtech, Aguilia or other.

2) If it won't reliably fire then return it to S&W for warranty work.  May be some other issues deeper in the functioning.

3) If it does work then back off the strain screw until you have ftf's, then tighten back down until it is good again.

4) measure the hammer fall at that point.  You can try an extended FP if you want at this point, I like C&S Firing Pin & Apex FP Spring.

5) load some Federal Primers, with a seated depth of .008" to  .010".  Repeat Steps 3 & 4.  With Fed Primers properly seated this should be 40 to 44 ounces.

6) If you reach this point you can start looking at a new rebound spring and once your happy with the reset measure the Action Weight.

7) If you can't get it where you want it, send it to TK, Pinnacle or some known Revolver Smith.

[testosterone]

2 hours ago, pskys2 said:

1-7

that is a really good action plan.

my first 929, before if got snowflake treatment, all factory, set off aguila, IMI headstamp subgun surplus, etc..basically anything you put in it. It wouldn't extract alot of that stuff without a mallet though...

 

if the gun really is all factory and the *strain screw is bottomed out*, then hammer drag/firing pin channel obstruction or headspace/endshake out enough to cause reliability problem or combo of all???

 

Also...The pics of that top row, those are live rounds????i would never suspect given that level of primer upset they failed to fire and would def be wondering if they were duds(though I personally have never had one...) 

 

fyi, i contacted factory about setting a barrel back on one of my guns which is currently .012+ and gets super dirty very fast...they said 6 months as of last friday...

[testosterone]

3 hours ago, ysrracer said:

Factory ammo will NEVER work in a revo with lightened springs. It's just not going to happen.

small enough factory...Atlanta Arms that stuff they market to bianchi does work on my 4.5 lbs 929's...but this is probably lot specific and the ones I bought had fed 100's in them.

 

[testosterone]

On 6/8/2022 at 6:32 PM, DDave said:

the pic...

just re-reading and looking again, those top round are live still,   thats crazy, those look almost pierced, i can't believe they didn't pop.

[CtYankee]

 With rimless cases, that headspace off the case mouth, headspace is variable. SAAMI specifies maximum case length, and then reloading manuals publish trim to lengths that are .010" less than that, and I have measured once fired and resized cases that were at least .013" less than maximum length. I have heard, but not measured, that semi-autos have longer firing pins and heavier hammer/striker springs, perhaps to make up for this potential difference, although many semi-autos actually headspace off the extractor (that's not the intended design). Revolver headspacing is, ideally .010" ±.002" some are more than that and the incidence of misfires increases after .015" (my experience). Add to this the little bit of give that you might get in a moonclips and it is easy to see why rimless cartridges in revolvers are fussy about primers and why a misfired cartridge in a revolver will ignite in a semiauto. I think that pskys2 has a good plan. Some 929 competition shooters I know install longer firing pin as general practice rather than to fix a problem. On my Ruger GP100s I have removed .020" from the top step of the hammer to give a positive strike to the firing pin. Thicker moonclips can help, but they don't always fit.

[pskys2]

21 hours ago, testosterone said:

that is a really good action plan.

my first 929, before if got snowflake treatment, all factory, set off aguila, IMI headstamp subgun surplus, etc..basically anything you put in it. It wouldn't extract alot of that stuff without a mallet though...

 

if the gun really is all factory and the *strain screw is bottomed out*, then hammer drag/firing pin channel obstruction or headspace/endshake out enough to cause reliability problem or combo of all???

 

Also...The pics of that top row, those are live rounds????i would never suspect given that level of primer upset they failed to fire and would def be wondering if they were duds(though I personally have never had one...) 

 

fyi, i contacted factory about setting a barrel back on one of my guns which is currently .012+ and gets super dirty very fast...they said 6 months as of last friday...

Quite common for ftf rounds, I've noticed that if you can't get it to light off within 3 strikes there's a high likliehood that it won't fire.  Seems if the anvil is incrementally crushed you don't get the "spark" of it breaking and so no ignition.

 

One reason why I never load dummy rounds with a bullet AND a spent, "seemingly?", primer.

 

As a curious note when I was playing with the hammer fall for the lightest possible action I had several rounds FTF on the first 2 strikes, and I kid you not, in every instance if I "threw" the revolver as if swinging a hammer as I pulled the trigger they fired?  Sounds bizzare but it did happen at least 6 times.  Had a few that would never ignite too.

 

I've also noticed a noticable difference in FP Springs, and their effectiveness, there is a measurable difference in their compression weights.  I've found the lightest to be Apex Competition FP Springs, their not listed at this time but give them a call if you need some.

[GMM50]

22 hours ago, CtYankee said:

 With rimless cases, that headspace off the case mouth, headspace is variable. SAAMI specifies maximum case length, and then reloading manuals publish trim to lengths that are .010" less than that, and I have measured once fired and resized cases that were at least .013" less than maximum length. I have heard, but not measured, that semi-autos have longer firing pins and heavier hammer/striker springs, perhaps to make up for this potential difference, although many semi-autos actually headspace off the extractor (that's not the intended design). Revolver headspacing is, ideally .010" ±.002" some are more than that and the incidence of misfires increases after .015" (my experience). Add to this the little bit of give that you might get in a moonclips and it is easy to see why rimless cartridges in revolvers are fussy about primers and why a misfired cartridge in a revolver will ignite in a semiauto. I think that pskys2 has a good plan. Some 929 competition shooters I know install longer firing pin as general practice rather than to fix a problem. On my Ruger GP100s I have removed .020" from the top step of the hammer to give a positive strike to the firing pin. Thicker moonclips can help, but they don't always fit.

If you look at the chamber in the 929, it's funnel shaped.  I don't see a real step at the case mouth like the 45 acp.  I believe headspace is a soft number cause of that funnel design.  You NEED moon clips to firmly hold the cartridges in place for reliable ignition.

[testosterone]

59 minutes ago, GMM50 said:

If you look at the chamber in the 929, it's funnel shaped.  I don't see a real step at the case mouth like the 45 acp.  I believe headspace is a soft number cause of that funnel design.  You NEED moon clips to firmly hold the cartridges in place for reliable ignition.

You for sure need moons, i think its been discussed here a few times that 929 cylinders are properly 9x21, someone may have even bought a box and confirmed.  9x21 supposedly so the guns could be sold in countries that ban military calibers.   Could be more gunstore myths, not sure that was ever validated.

 

[DDave]

with the following I am now at 100% ignition/failure free with factory federal/American eagle & reloaded ammo over the last ~1000 rounds and 5 matches:

 

shimmed trigger & hammer, this seemingly has done more than anything else to fix the issue

cleaned up internal parts a bit more for any potential drag: plate channels, rebound slide, transfer bar (because why not at that point) and FP hole

still using factory mainspring

Edited July 13, 2022 by DDave

[Toolguy]

53 minutes ago, DDave said:

with the following I am not at 100% ignition/failure free with factory federal/American eagle & reloaded ammo over the last ~1000 rounds and 5 matches:

 

shimmed trigger & hammer, this seemingly has done more than anything else to fix the issue

cleaned up internal parts a bit more for any potential drag: plate channels, rebound slide, transfer bar (because why not at that point) and FP hole

still using factory mainspring

You are NOT at 100%, or you are NOW at 100%? 

[ysrracer]

39 minutes ago, Toolguy said:

You are NOT at 100%, or you are NOW at 100%? 

 

Yes, thanks

[DDave]

Sorry, mistype, I am NOW at 100%, post fixed 

Edited July 13, 2022 by DDave

[ysrracer]

What's your double action trigger pull at?