SSP and 15 rounds

[matteekay]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I'm imagining your comment to mean if you block a target with a wall and call it cover but don't have a fault line could you reload. I'd think that's not a legal stage, if there isn't a fault line it's not really cover it's a vision barrier.  

 

That's not true. We absolutely use walls to separate targets from the shooter that aren't "positions of cover" or a vision barrier. Think of a box made from walls with a target in the middle and an opening on the uprange wall that's marked as a PoC. The side walls in that situation aren't cover, as there's no shooting position, but they sure as hell aren't a vision barrier, as then I could just lean around the side and shoot through them rather than going to the PoC.

 

To extrapolate that, move one of those walls so it's separating the shooter from a target that's in the open. There's no position of cover to shoot from, but the shooter also can throw rounds through the wall at the target. I'd assume the shooter is covered if they want to reload.

Edited June 1, 2022 by matteekay

[Jim Watson]

A WALL is defined as impenetrable. 

[Racinready300ex]

15 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

That's not true. We absolutely use walls to separate targets from the shooter that aren't "positions of cover" or a vision barrier. Think of a box made from walls with a target in the middle and an opening on the uprange wall that's marked as a PoC. The side walls in that situation aren't cover, as there's no shooting position, but they sure as hell aren't a vision barrier, as then I could just lean around the side and shoot through them rather than going to the PoC.

 

To extrapolate that, move one of those walls so it's separating the shooter from a target that's in the open. There's no position of cover to shoot from, but the shooter also can throw rounds through the wall at the target. I'd assume the shooter is covered if they want to reload.

 

I'm not sure I follow your example, you have a box made of walls with a fault line. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about surprise targets you engage in the open. If you're leaning around a wall that isn't cover you're making the shooting harder than it needs to be, which you're welcome to do. 

 

I specifically asked this question on our first stage at the recent state match. The stage had you move down a hall way to a 2nd position of cover at the end of the wall. I asked if I could reload moving up, the answer was yes. Then I asked hypothetically if there wasn't a fault line at the end of the wall and that was a surprise in the open target could I reload and the answer was no. Which goes back to my point about this being IDPA and there is really no right answer so you need to ask the SO on the stage what they expect you to do. 

 

 

[matteekay]

53 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm not sure I follow your example, you have a box made of walls with a fault line. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about surprise targets you engage in the open. If you're leaning around a wall that isn't cover you're making the shooting harder than it needs to be, which you're welcome to do. 

 

I specifically asked this question on our first stage at the recent state match. The stage had you move down a hall way to a 2nd position of cover at the end of the wall. I asked if I could reload moving up, the answer was yes. Then I asked hypothetically if there wasn't a fault line at the end of the wall and that was a surprise in the open target could I reload and the answer was no. Which goes back to my point about this being IDPA and there is really no right answer so you need to ask the SO on the stage what they expect you to do. 

 

 

 

That was my point, as well: if I'm separated from a surprise target by an impenetrable wall, even if there's not a designated PoC, I am logically not exposed to that target (if I can't shoot at it, how can it shoot at me?). Sounds like your SO disagrees, but that doesn't make them right.

 

I was only pointing out that we've separated the shooter from targets using walls that don't have PoC's for years, and none of that wording has changed in 2022. I read the new rule as specific to vision barriers.

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

That was my point, as well: if I'm separated from a surprise target by an impenetrable wall, even if there's not a designated PoC, I am logically not exposed to that target (if I can't shoot at it, how can it shoot at me?). Sounds like your SO disagrees, but that doesn't make them right.

 

I was only pointing out that we've separated the shooter from targets using walls that don't have PoC's for years, and none of that wording has changed in 2022. I read the new rule as specific to vision barriers.

 

I can see where it can get murky. For example the stage I mentioned asking about falling out from cover. The surprise target was behind a munch of barrels stacked up to create what was basically a port. Under your interpretation the construction of the thing blocking my view will determine if I get a PE or not. Where as what my club seems to be doing would be called the same way on ever stage.

 

I still would say your club is kind of doing it wrong to place "cover" but no fault line and designate that it's a surprise target that is in the open. If there is cover they should put a fault line and require you to shoot from it, if there is not cover then the thing in the way must be a vision barrier not matter the construction. Probably just another one of those things that varies from one area to another. When ever we have a surprise target the thing blocking it is designated as a vision barrier so it's vary unlikely you'll run into the situation you're describing in this area. Unless maybe it's seen as a work around to allow reloading on the move, then who knows. 

 

Over the next few months I'm sure this will shake itself out some. I'll probably run into the AC sometime this summer I'll pick his brain if I do.

[matteekay]

9 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I still would say your club is kind of doing it wrong to place "cover" but no fault line and designate that it's a surprise target that is in the open. 

 

Literally every wall on your stages has a fault line?

[Racinready300ex]

11 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

Literally every wall on your stages has a fault line?

 

Probably not, 100%

 

At least I think we're in agreement with my original point the debate is just what is cover, and it'll be what ever the SO say it is. 

 

[matteekay]

45 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Probably not, 100%

 

At least I think we're in agreement with my original point the debate is just what is cover, and it'll be what ever the SO say it is. 

 

 

So no better than the old rules then, lol.

 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

 

So no better than the old rules then, lol.

 

 

No, this is certainly IMO a rule they made complicated for no reason along with the tweak to the rule about fault lines not going to infinity. These are the two area's I see potential issue traveling to clubs out of your normal area. 

 

I don't really see this ever not being a issue in IDPA, as long as you accept that going in I think you can still enjoy the game. 

[Jim Watson]

I shot in SSP-15 yesterday.

The MD had taken that into account with two downloaded starts and two 17 hit stages out of six.  

One at 15, one at 16 but both of those with moving targets I would normally be inclined to fire an insurance shot at.  One I got through without a reload but the other I kind of peppered the double swinger and accepted a reload down the way.

The downloaded starts made it easy to remember to make a chamber loaded reload.

 

I will repeat the trial at the other two ranges holding IDPA but after that I will revert to my usual ESP or where allowed, sub caliber conversion.  

 

There was no funny business about vision barriers vs cover; if there wasn't a fault line, just zoom on by the corner and shoot at any target(s) on the way.  

[Racinready300ex]

On 6/3/2022 at 10:44 AM, matteekay said:

 

 

 

I shot a match yesterday, I didn't think of it until I was driving home, but it kind of fit your criteria. We shot from a fault line on our left, then moved to the right around the wall and had two targets in the open as we moved forward. There was no reason to reload here because we'd only shot 4 shots. But thinking back could you legally reload there? Common sense would say yes I think. Which is the point I think you were making. I would assume most RO's would allow this. 

 

Most of the guys I would ask were out of town for a major, I'll try to look for these situations going forward and see if I can get people thinking about it. 

 

I built a stage where you were going to run dry either right before you went into the open or in the open that was going to force people to think about the new reload rules a little. But, the MD decided to make it a download start and took all the thinking out of it. This also forced everyone  but SSP to do 2 reloads. He kind of broke the stage IMO. 

[Jim Watson]

I shot SSP-15 again at Range #2.  Same deal, an imbedded classifier and a downloaded start wiped out the advantage on two stages, high round count, movers and cover placement reduced it on three others.  I got through one stage without a reload.

Nothing unusual on cover vs concealment.  There were a number of ports not so wide as to be considered a POC with fault line required.

 

I have one other place to try it at but don't expect a different experience.

 

Otherwise, I am going back to my usual Division of ESP or where allowed, sub caliber until the primer supply catches up.  

[Racinready300ex]

 

On 6/12/2022 at 11:09 AM, Jim Watson said:

I shot SSP-15 again at Range #2.  Same deal, an imbedded classifier and a downloaded start wiped out the advantage on two stages, high round count, movers and cover placement reduced it on three others.  I got through one stage without a reload.

Nothing unusual on cover vs concealment.  There were a number of ports not so wide as to be considered a POC with fault line required.

 

I have one other place to try it at but don't expect a different experience.

 

Otherwise, I am going back to my usual Division of ESP or where allowed, sub caliber until the primer supply catches up.  

 

I've shot a couple matches now, just 5 stage club matches. Typically there is a stage or 2 that SSP capacity saves them a reload. At such a small match 1 or 2 stages is pretty significant. Burning down 1 stage can win you the match if you just do okay for the rest. 

 

For me, I think I'm about done with iron sights. Dots are better, so that's what I'm shooting. 

[rowdyb]

Most my idpa now is 15rnd ssp from aiwb. Sadly I have yet to encounter stages locally where 15/16 has helped me. Due to his stage design. The fact I'm always the high pistol has nothing to do w being in ssp.