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SSP and 15 rounds


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I shot my first IDPA match last night since the recent rule changes.  Since I only shoot ESP/CO, I really haven't thought much about the SSP 15 round mag capacity until I watched a shooter keep shooting past 11 rounds last night.  My only thought is, why would IDPA try to make SSP more popular?  The Wilsons don't even make one of those.

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This is purely related to IDPA in Central Texas, so your mileage may vary. 

I have found the change to 15 rounds to be a non event. Stages still typically are large enough to require a reload.  Its frankly a pain as my P320 mags only show 10 and 17 rounds, which means I effectively have to get down to 10 rounds to know how many are in a mag after each stage, and at 12 rounds really requires a mag loader. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

My only thought is, why would IDPA try to make SSP more popular?  The Wilsons don't even make one of those.

 

Wilson doesn't make them from scratch, but they do mung up distinctive versions of P320 and 92G.

But is IDPA really a big part of their business?  I don't see many around here.

 

I have several magazines with more witness holes than the manufacturer drilled.

Edited by Jim Watson
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People constantly make comments about IDPA rules being tailored to allow Wilson Combat guns. You would think by now that if they actually shoot IDPA they would have recognized how few Wilson guns are being used.

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The majority of the SSP guns being used are duty-type semi-autos that have 15 to 17 round mags from the factory (except in the Commie states). Why not recognize reality? 

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2 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

I have several magazines with more witness holes than the manufacturer drilled.

 

I'm surprised more people don't do this.

Or maybe they do and it just never comes up.

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I have been shooting mostly SSP for years and after shooting the first major match that used the new rules the change is frustrating.   It only saved two reloads over 11 stages and for all the other stages it forced the reload in an unopertune place.  Overall I don't feel like it was an advantage for me to have the extra rounds.  I think this change makes it more difficult for match directors to setup a stage that is good for all divisions.  That said the new rules with vission barriers seems to be a bigger problem than the mag capacity changes.

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24 minutes ago, Mike62 said:

I have been shooting mostly SSP for years and after shooting the first major match that used the new rules the change is frustrating.   It only saved two reloads over 11 stages and for all the other stages it forced the reload in an unopertune place.  Overall I don't feel like it was an advantage for me to have the extra rounds.  I think this change makes it more difficult for match directors to setup a stage that is good for all divisions.  That said the new rules with vission barriers seems to be a bigger problem than the mag capacity changes.

 

The best thing IMO to do with stage design is just build something you think will be fun and don't worry about the reloads. Let the shooters figure it out. Sometimes the lamest stages are the ones it's clear the builder was planning reloads when he designed them. And it's easy for a match to become repetitive if that's done a lot. 

 

The vision barrier thing wasn't to bad once we understood it. what ended up happening though is you step out past the fault line and fire one more shot running to slide lock "in the open" and reload as you would under the old rules. It seems to of just made things needlessly complicated. 

 

I found speed reloads to be hard mentally. The first few I was thinking I was breaking a rule and going to get a PE as I was doing it. My brain kept trying to jump in and distract me. 

 

I currently have one match under my belt in these rules. 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, ddc said:

 

I'm surprised more people don't do this.

Or maybe they do and it just never comes up.

Lack of tools, lack of talent.  Before this change I had no need to do it. 

Edited by Zincwarrior
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1 hour ago, Zincwarrior said:

Lack of tools, lack of talent.  Before this change I had no need to do it. 

 

I added a witness hole quite a while back because I like to know for sure I have 10 rounds loaded and not 12.

Loading your mags shouldn't be done on the clock but on occasion I've been in a hurry or been distracted for whatever reason.

Then I go "did I load 10 or 12 by accident" ... sigh, unload a couple rounds just to make sure. Yep 10, ok, load em back up

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On 5/18/2022 at 6:05 AM, RangerTrace said:

why would IDPA try to make SSP more popular?

Because it hasn't been and we naturally are drawn to balance? With the arrival of aiwb, CO and such what is the only thing you can do to make a modification limited division more interesting? More ammo. As someone with more DC's in SSP than any other division I like the idea and I might actually shoot idpa more because of 15 rounds in ssp.

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Posted (edited)

My guess would be to try to drum up some SSP interest and possibly balance the divisions and avoid having half or more of the shooters at any given match shooting CO like what is happening in USPSA.  

Edited by deerslayer
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On 5/19/2022 at 5:57 AM, Mike62 said:

That said the new rules with vission barriers seems to be a bigger problem than the mag capacity changes.

 

Which vision barrier change is this? I'm running my first match under the new rules this weekend and want to make sure I'm tracking everything.

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Here are the rules mentioning vision barriers.  I am not clear just what I am to DO with them, either.

 

Concealment refers to hidden from sight. Concealment such as Vision Barriers, and Soft Cover refers to a

penetrable barrier used to obscure a shooters position from targets, such as bushes or a curtain.

 

When moving between two positions of cover, no more than 6 shots may be required on "discovered” or

“surprise" targets hidden behind a vision barrier or revealed by activation.

 

Vision Barriers provide concealment to the shooter, but offer no protection from a threat. This allows movement through a stage. When the shooter runs the firearm empty, they are considered to be in the open.

 

Vision Barriers [Concealment]

Vision barriers are soft cover objects such as barrels, tents, fake trees, sheer curtains, etc., that are used to block or occlude the view of a target or group of targets.
Vision barriers are soft cover and may not be impenetrable or designated as hard cover. Vision barriers may not be designated as a point of cover for engaging targets, i.e. no slicing the pie around a vision barrier. Vision barriers may be used by Match Directors to hide “Surprise” targets, which are to be engaged “in the open” (i.e. after leaving a “position of cover” in a CoF).

Humanoid shapes that are not targets (as defined in section 4.12), may not be used as vision barriers, soft cover or hard cover. Tactical dummies or mannequins may still be used as props, but not as Vision Barriers, soft cover, or hard cover.

 

So what do I do at the end of a vision barrier?  Leap out and engage "in the open" where tactical priority means near to far?

 

I am confused by the usual mesh wall section.  Walls are officially impenetrable, therefore hard cover.  Which means they should have a fault line to define the point of cover.  No problem, but what if it doesn't?  Is it now a vision barrier and therefore soft cover?  The SO will be pissed if I shoot through it, but I do not see a provision for a penalty.  

 

 

 

 

 

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If you leave a point of cover with an empty firearm then you must have the reload complete before you expose yourself to the target behind the vision barrier or else it's a PE. 

 

Under the new rules you must have the reload complete before leaving the point of cover. The vision barrier no longer "protects" you from the target 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

A vision barrier is not cover in any circumstance.

 

When the shooter runs the firearm empty in the open or from behind concealment, the shooter may reload and continue engaging targets as needed or move to the next shooting position.

3.5.11.2 In stages with cover, shooters may reload standing still or on the move at any time, as long as they are not exposed to targets that are not fully engaged during the reload.

3.5.12 Vision Barriers provide concealment to the shooter, but offer no protection from a threat. This allows movement through a stage. When the shooter runs the firearm empty, they are considered to be in the open.

 

Which I take to mean that if you go empty behind COVER, you may not move out if there are unengaged targets in view, but you may if they have all been shot, and reload on the move.

 

If you run out in the Open, just keep going, reload ASAP.  How are you going to run empty in

Concealment behind a Vision Barrier?

 

A fiendish MD could set up situations with alternating Cover, Concealment, and Open areas that would make movement, shooting and reloading problematic.

Edited by Jim Watson
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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

Which I take to mean that if you go empty behind COVER, you may not move out if there are unengaged targets in view, but you may if they have all been shot, and reload on the move.

If the unengaged targets are behind cover then you can leave cover with an empty firearm, reload on the move to 2nd position of cover, and earn no penalty.

 

27 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

 

If you run out in the Open, just keep going, reload ASAP.  How are you going to run empty in

Concealment behind a Vision Barrier?

 

?? You confused me here

Edited by MarilynMonbro
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Thanks for the clarifications; that makes a lot of sense (even if the rule change doesn't). I run an indoor match so we don't use true vision barriers often (ie. penetrable).

 

36 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

If you run out in the Open, just keep going, reload ASAP.  How are you going to run empty in

Concealment behind a Vision Barrier?

 

You're right, you can't. However, you could go dry behind cover and the next target is behind a vision barrier, so you'd have to reload before moving.

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So for those of us who are slow on the uptake...

 

Could somebody provide a scenario that contrasts the new rulebook with the old as far as this vision barrier thing is concerned?

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14 hours ago, ddc said:

So for those of us who are slow on the uptake...

 

Could somebody provide a scenario that contrasts the new rulebook with the old as far as this vision barrier thing is concerned?

 

Lets say you run dry at a position of cover after engaging all the targets required from that positions. Lets assume on this stage there are also surprise targets on the way to the next position.

 

Under the old rules you could leave the position of cover with a empty gun and preform a reload on the move. As long as the reload was done prior to the surprise target becoming visible you did not get a PE. This was pretty subjective, to decide when the cardboard target can see you and when your reload was complete. 

 

Under the new rules on this stage if you leave cover with the empty gun you get a PE. So you need to perform a standing reload at that POC then leave....Or, if you can save one round step out from cover and fire your last round as a "make up shot". Now you've run dry in the open and can perform a emergency reload on the move with no fear of a PE. 

 

Make sense?

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2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Under the old rules you could leave the position of cover with a empty gun and preform a reload on the move. As long as the reload was done prior to the surprise target becoming visible you did not get a PE. This was pretty subjective, to decide when the cardboard target can see you and when your reload was complete. 

 

Under the new rules on this stage if you leave cover with the empty gun you get a PE. 

 

Isn't it only a PE if the only thing separating you from the surprise target is a vision barrier? What if it's hard cover, like a wall?

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38 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

Isn't it only a PE if the only thing separating you from the surprise target is a vision barrier? What if it's hard cover, like a wall?

I guess it could depend on stage design a little. The idea would be if there is cover you're supposed to use it. So if you're moving from cover to cover you can still reload as normal. Locally I've only seen surprise targets behind vision barriers so that wouldn't happen.

 

I'm imagining your comment to mean if you block a target with a wall and call it cover but don't have a fault line could you reload. I'd think that's not a legal stage, if there isn't a fault line it's not really cover it's a vision barrier.  At the end of the day, one thing hasn't changed. In IDPA always ask the SO what he expects you to do. The clubs here will give you the PE I'm sure.

 

Somewhat related, I asked at our state match the other day "If I'm leaning when I run dry and loose my balance and step out from cover with a empty gun, then step back in to do my reload is it a PE?" The SO on that stage said it would be because I would of left cover with a empty gun and exposed myself to the surprise target down range behind a barrel stack. Is that right? No idea.

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