223 sizing issues

[looking4reloadingdeals]

Hello all, I’m going to start this by saying I’m feeling like quite the newbie right now and I'm looking for a little help. I used to load a lot of 223 but haven’t in many years. I went to set up my sizing die (RCBS SB die) and I’m having a big variation is sizing between headstamps. I’ll get it set right so that it will properly size certain headstamps but then some are over and others are under the steps in my RCBS case gauge. I don’t ever remember needing to sort by headstamp that in depth to load 223 so what am I missing here? I used to use a Lee die but the threads stripped and will no longer hold the recapping pin in place so I’m stuck with my RCBS unless I order a new die. 

I gauged some of my previously loaded ammo and it all falls into the correct place in my case gauge so I know I used to be able to do, but can’t get it right now haha. 
 

Any help is greatly appreciated. 

[Farmer]

It’s called Flex in your system. I used to run into this on a single stage trying to size to a specific chamber. I finally bought a set of Redding progressive shell holders that allow you to size to the amount you need with firm contact and over-cam on the press. Improved my sizing 100%. If your shell holder is making firm contact with the bottom of the die and your still coming up short either you need more lube or something else is flexing. 

[looking4reloadingdeals]

Sorry, should have mentioned, I’m running this on a Dillon 750

[BrianATL]

I can get this happening from excessive thick lube

[AHI]

If this is range brass. This would be normal. Next to properly size on a press like the 750 . All stations have to be full. That is to be consistent. I have used empty powder dies . Set to kiss the plate to eliminate flex. Really only need one or two across from the sizing die.

[looking4reloadingdeals]

2 hours ago, BrianATL said:

I can get this happening from excessive thick lube

I’m using One Shot and I don’t think I’m using too much, but I will try a little less and see if that helps, thanks. 

[HesedTech]

It’s probably not the lube. I reload a lot of 223 all mixed brass and there was a learning curve compared to pistol. Just remember this, there’s a difference brass thickness and volume between head stamps. Chooses the offender and set up for that one with all stations full. 
 

Make sure you powder drop is not pressing against the neck. Set it just so it reaches full extension for powder drop. There’s enough force there to push on distort the neck and shoulder, which often causes issues with head spacing especially with the softer/thinner brass. 
 

In my process I decap, size, trim and then clean the brass in a wet tumbler. Yes I make sure the brass is clean of mud and debris before lubing.

 

 

[Boomstick303]

9 hours ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:

are over and others are under the steps in my RCBS case gauge.

 

What do you mean by under the steps?  Is the variation to the shoulder or the overall case length?

 

1 hour ago, HesedTech said:

In my process I decap, size, trim

 

This is what I am curious about the OP did not mention he was trimming in any fashion.  Are the dimensions he talk about the overall length of the case of the measurement to the shoulder.  He would need to trim after resizing to obtain uniform case length.  

[looking4reloadingdeals]

1 hour ago, AHI said:

If this is range brass. This would be normal. Next to properly size on a press like the 750 . All stations have to be full. That is to be consistent. I have used empty powder dies . Set to kiss the plate to eliminate flex. Really only need one or two across from the sizing die.

Interesting, I will try to add a couple of the extra powder I have, I never thought about that before. I have noticed I get different results with a full vs empty shell plate though.

[looking4reloadingdeals]

28 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

What do you mean by under the steps?  Is the variation to the shoulder or the overall case length?

 

 

This is what I am curious about the OP did not mention he was trimming in any fashion.  Are the dimensions he talk about the overall length of the case of the measurement to the shoulder.  He would need to trim after resizing to obtain uniform case length.  

I am talking about the “headspace” steps at the top of the case or shoulder dimension to the base of the case shown below. Some will come in below bottom shelf on the inside of the gauge, while others are taller than the outside step. 

I am only resizing and depriming here. My process is to resize, trim, swage primer pockets, retumble, then load. So the only process I’m trying to accomplish in this step is sizing. Trimming and swaging are done off the press with giraud tri way trimmer and the dillon bench top swager which is why I’m only doing the sizing right now since all other processes required aren’t done on the press. Hope this clears it up a little, guess I didn’t do a good job of explaining my set up in my OP, sorry about that. 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by looking4reloadingdeals

[Boomstick303]

I run into this as well using a similar gauge.  I believe mine is a Dillon Gauge.  I use all of the ones that fail high (they typically fail by a hair) and use designate those for practice.  I then use all of the ones the pass for match ammo.  

 

I am new to reloading 223, so this has been a learning experience.  I have noted that unless you are using an undersize-die or roll sizing the brass there is a chance the brass ever so slightly bulged at the base and this can cause case gauge failure as well.  I noted this and rolls sized all of my 223 brass after loading 1-2 hundred rounds and noticed I was having more failures than expected.  I roll sized the rest of the cases and made some spot measurements of the OAL of several cases and the length did not seem to change at all after roll sizing.  Once I roll sized my failure rate went to almost zero.  I still have some that fail, but I feel they will chamber fine and will use those for practice blaster ammo.  I have been to lazy to figure out if the failure is due to shoulder bump or what because the failure rate has dropped so low.  

 

When I use the term fail, it means the case is above the upper step ever so slightly.  

 

To figure out exactly what is going on if the brass is failing due to shoulder bump issues, or bulging issues you can use a shoulder bump gauge.  Take measurements of the brass failing and compare that measurement to the ones that are passing.  If the shoulder bump measurements are identical then you possibly have bulging issues at the base of the brass.

 

It looks like you are using a small base die.   Maybe the die is not set up if your shoulder bump is ok.  I have a buddy who has been reloading 223 for years and uses an undersize-die and feels he does not have the need to case gauge.  His ammo runs fine.  He did mention that he need to set the die very low.  You may need to adjust that die.

 

I will change the steps when processing 223 brass moving forward.  Clean by wet tumbling, Roll-size, de-prime/swage/resize/trim/bell the brass in one pass on the 1050.  Then wet tumble again to remove burs, and lube.  Then load.

 

Like I said fairly new, so I am learning from others issues as well.

 

Hope you figure it out.

[HesedTech]

1 hour ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:

I am talking about the “headspace” steps at the top of the case or shoulder dimension to the base of the case shown below.

Yes, this measures the space from shoulder to base and not the OAL. OAL is adjusted by trimming after sizing. I personally decap, size and trim in one pass using a 1050 and the Dillon trimmer. I do have a significantly slower process when I am loading "precision" 223. Sort head stamps, full body and neck size, hand trim, trickle powder... a pain in the rear, but precise.

 

After thousands of 223 range brass reloading I found two things, the sizing step is the most critical for head space and when dropping the powder with the Dillon measure it can bump the neck if not adjusted properly and therefore distort the shoulder causing a failed gage check. Now the only failures I have are due to damaged rims. Oh, I finish load 223 on a dedicated 550 with floating bullet seating die and the head locked in place. 

 

I also use the JP Enterprises gage for 223. 

 

Have fun, reloading is a hobby in itself. Sadly (or not) I spend more time reloading than shooting; it takes significantly less time time to shoot a couple of hundred rounds than to reload them. 

 

I have to point one thing out, for rifle brass make sure you are inspecting for possible brass issues that may cause a failure. I have found PMC reloads about 3 times before showing issues. It seems to be rather thin brass.

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

I have to point one thing out, for rifle brass make sure you are inspecting for possible brass issues that may cause a failure. I have found PMC reloads about 3 times before showing issues. It seems to be rather thin brass.

 

Thanks for the tips and the heads up on the the PMC brass.  

 

Interesting about the powder drop with the Dillon Powder drop.  I will look to see if that might be affecting some of my ammo. 

 

[looking4reloadingdeals]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

I run into this as well using a similar gauge.  I believe mine is a Dillon Gauge.  I use all of the ones that fail high (they typically fail by a hair) and use designate those for practice.  I then use all of the ones the pass for match ammo.  

 

I am new to reloading 223, so this has been a learning experience.  I have noted that unless you are using an undersize-die or roll sizing the brass there is a chance the brass ever so slightly bulged at the base and this can cause case gauge failure as well.  I noted this and rolls sized all of my 223 brass after loading 1-2 hundred rounds and noticed I was having more failures than expected.  I roll sized the rest of the cases and made some spot measurements of the OAL of several cases and the length did not seem to change at all after roll sizing.  Once I roll sized my failure rate went to almost zero.  I still have some that fail, but I feel they will chamber fine and will use those for practice blaster ammo.  I have been to lazy to figure out if the failure is due to shoulder bump or what because the failure rate has dropped so low.  

 

When I use the term fail, it means the case is above the upper step ever so slightly.  

 

To figure out exactly what is going on if the brass is failing due to shoulder bump issues, or bulging issues you can use a shoulder bump gauge.  Take measurements of the brass failing and compare that measurement to the ones that are passing.  If the shoulder bump measurements are identical then you possibly have bulging issues at the base of the brass.

 

It looks like you are using a small base die.   Maybe the die is not set up if your shoulder bump is ok.  I have a buddy who has been reloading 223 for years and uses an undersize-die and feels he does not have the need to case gauge.  His ammo runs fine.  He did mention that he need to set the die very low.  You may need to adjust that die.

 

I will change the steps when processing 223 brass moving forward.  Clean by wet tumbling, Roll-size, de-prime/swage/resize/trim/bell the brass in one pass on the 1050.  Then wet tumble again to remove burs, and lube.  Then load.

 

Like I said fairly new, so I am learning from others issues as well.

 

Hope you figure it out.

Why do you only use the ones that fail high and not low? I have a couple handfuls of brass that fail low by the smallest margin that your comment is making me thinking again about using them. 
 

I found with my small base die my press requires zero cam over, otherwise brass comes in under the lower step. Right now I have it set to barely touch the shell plate, but no cam over at all which seems odd as usually I need a slight cam over with every single other caliber/brand of brass I load for. But again, then I run into problems when I have it. 

[Boomstick303]

 

 

31 minutes ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:

I found with my small base die my press requires zero cam over, otherwise brass comes in under the lower step.

 

I am sure this completely depends on the die used.  I have heard some have to cam over on certain dies.  Others do not.  I do not but I am also not using a SB die.

 

31 minutes ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:

Why do you only use the ones that fail high and not low?

 

None are failing low.  At Least I have not ran into any failing low yet after loading about 2000 rounds.  I have mostly noticed an ever so slight case bulge (at least its seems this is the case) causing any issue.  Once I roll sized the issue seem to go away.  I probably should do some shoulder bump measurements on some loaded ammo to see if I maintained my desire shoulder bump just for a data point, but it has not been an issue if it is passing the gauge.  I hope to get to a point where I am not gauging every reloaded piece of ammo, and just gauging match ammo.  

 

We also have to remember we are talking about AR rifles here.  At least I think we are and not bolt action high precession reloading.  The 223 (77gr) stuff I will end loading for 300 yds. and out will have a little more detail given to it, even for AR purposes.  AR chambers are pretty forgiving.  At least that what I have gathered from my research.

 

I have also noted ammo will not pass a Lyman 223 case gauge I also have but will pass the Dillon case gauge which works fine in all of my rifles.  

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Boomstick303

[looking4reloadingdeals]

You are correct, we are talking about plinking 223 ammo with 55gr FMJ bullets. Nothing precision about this, just for fun. I have never measured shoulder bump on my 223 ammo. I only gauge, and if it passes the gauge it’s good to go for my use. 
 

I guess I’m just trying to figure out what kind of variance is ok for these so I don’t have to worry about shooting the ammo in multiple guns. And I know some people will say it should be to totally fine and others will say they’re too dangerous if they don’t fit the gauge. IV just never had a great understanding of the 223 headspacing since I’m mostly a pistol shooter but I do know it can be a big deal with out of battery discharges and what not so I’m just trying to understand what kind of variance is ok, or if I need to sort by headstamps that all size the same just to be on the safe side. Just seems a little crazy to me to have to do that though since I know all these commercial guys sure as hell aren’t doing that when they’re cranking away. Just a lot of work for plinking loads imo. 

[Boomstick303]

10 minutes ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:

I have never measured shoulder bump on my 223 ammo

 

I did it to help set up my resizing die.  I know 223 is not PRS for the most part, but I do follow Erik Cortina (a PRS guy who has a YouTube Channel), to find out the most efficient way to do stuff and what different aspects of reloading affect accuracy.  He is a great resource.  He really has just about done it all and prevents me from going down stupid rabbit holes.  Things like Neck sizing.  

 

I am not sure what the variance we can get away with is.  

[looking4reloadingdeals]

Bought a brand new Lee 223 die set. The resizing die fixed everything it seems. Out of a couple hundred resized cases all but 2-5% or less of one single head stamp passed gauge (less than 1% total). This is much less variability than I was seeing before with my RCBS SB die, so I’m going to attribute it to the die at this point.  

[HesedTech]

9 hours ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:

so I’m going to attribute it to the die at this point.  

My most consistent 223 die is the Redding full length only die; it just doesn't neck size. I use the Dillon 223 die when volume sizing and trimming on my 1050.

 

Here's a technique I found to help figuring out where the sizing issues are happening; gage check the brass after sizing, trimming and cleaning. Then test again after loading. If you find after loading the number of  failures increases then the issues is in the powder drop, seating and crimping part of the process. With bottle neck cartridges it is easy to slightly deform the neck and shoulder during this part.