Primer punch sets high on XL650

[DIYguy]

Recently within the last 1,000 of so loads I've been running into flipped primers loading sideways and even an occasional upside down primer. First time during years of loading with this press I've been encountering this. Now to a point of about 10% of my primers are flipping sideways. I can feel the difference and typically soon as it happens I'll pull the case and set aside but still a pain. Been chatting with another shooting buddy using the a 650 and having the same problem.

 

Yes... I'm familiar with tightening the shell plate and the fine line for as tight as possible but still rotate freely to index. To tight, hangs up on index, to loose, primers can flip. Everything clean, lubed and I use a lot of silicone on moving parts so they stay dry and non greasy but still slippery.

 

I've torn the press down quite a ways, cleaned, oiled, greased zirks, lubed, blah, blah  and the one point I'm suspicious about is the primer plunger. There is no adjustment for seating depths, yes it's all the way tight, etc. What I'm looking at is when the handle is at rest and the press is at rest the plunger sets about 3/32" high. Rock the handle a bit, let go and when it comes to rest the plunger is setting proud. What this does is when the primer disk is loaded the plunger will push the primer up a bit from the disk and the primers is not completely held in the primer disk hole. The only thing I can see happening is the primer plunger assemble rest on the the metal brackets below the head when the arm is at rest and it looks like the spring is not holding the assembly firm. Can this primmer plunger assembly spring get weak and cause this problem? Been a number of years and MANY thousands of rounds loaded on the press and all are small primer so wondering if a weak spring could be causing this issue.

[chumly2071]

Did this happen to coincide with changing from large primer to small?  I have seen other users have issues using the large primer magazine tube with small primers in it (ie they forgot to swap when changing primer sizes on the machine).

[DIYguy]

Only run small primers on this press so not the result of a conversion. The only thing being done differently is I transitioned from the pick-up tube style of loading the primer tube and now use the vibraprime. Have the glitches in that system worked out so it works pretty slick. I don't use the black adapter and load directly into the charging tube so I can watch every primer load.

[ddc]

The case feed mechanism has an effect on how high the primer ram sits.

 

If the interior of the case insert slide (#97082) becomes worn or the insert spring (#13937) is weak or broken then the ram will sit higher than it should.

 

It's not normally talked about much but the interior of the case insert slide can get quite eroded as time goes by.

 

I used to have a picture but I can't seem to find it.

 

If nothing else works consider disassembling the case insert slide and check for wear and/or tired or broken spring.

 

Edited to add: Found the picture

Edited April 3, 2022 by ddc
added picture

[DIYguy]

ddc: Thanks, the case feed assembly is one of the areas I've been playing with to see if it made a difference. I have a LOT of upgrades on my press and one is the arm that activates part of the case feed. I was looking at the adjustment for the rod with the roller bearing and thought maybe the arm could be putting pressure on the assembly and holding the ram a bit down when at rest. Adjusted the rod way up, tried a few things but still didn't make a difference. Still trying but based on unsuccessful web searches I'm not alone with this issue.

[ddc]

1 hour ago, DIYguy said:

ddc: Thanks, the case feed assembly is one of the areas I've been playing with to see if it made a difference. I have a LOT of upgrades on my press and one is the arm that activates part of the case feed. I was looking at the adjustment for the rod with the roller bearing and thought maybe the arm could be putting pressure on the assembly and holding the ram a bit down when at rest. Adjusted the rod way up, tried a few things but still didn't make a difference. Still trying but based on unsuccessful web searches I'm not alone with this issue.

 

I have one of those rods also. Maybe the same one you have.

 

I don't think that is the problem unless there is some gross misadjustment.

 

If it were me I'd bite the bullet and disassemble the case feed mechanism and see what it looks like inside. 

There is no way to see from the outside if there is an internal problem.

 

It is a minor bit of a pain to take it apart but in the end nothing you can't handle for sure with perhaps a little swearing.

 

That would at least eliminate that area as a possibility.

 

[N7VY]

I second what DDC wrote. I had the same problems as you when I had a 650 and the problem was under the case feed block. 

[DIYguy]

ddc: I haven't pulled the case block assembly off yet as looks like it's spring loaded, wanted to make sure of what I was doing before I tried to remove. Found the Dillon parts page and printed the drawing for the platform assembly for a better look at the part in question.

 

After lots of cleaning, lubing, tightening, etc ran a batch of 223 last night. Ran into another issue that may be related that I have not had before. About one out of three of the 223 cases were not going all the way into the shell plate and were tipped. I had to manually tip the case vertical or completely reinsert into the locator slide and shell plate. Pulled the station locator slide and tested with a casing and looks like the slide is not capturing the head of the case and I can tip it out of the slide. Don't remember ever having that issue. Also seemed like the full assembly was not pushing the cases all the way into the shell plate. Weak spring?

 

Considering I may have over 10,000 small primer loads run thru the press, what would I be looking for for wear on the case feed assembly block? It does feel rather sloppy when I grab it and wiggle.

[rishii]

Call Dillon 

it might be a timing or alinement issue, at least it was on mine

[ddc]

6 hours ago, DIYguy said:

ddc: I haven't pulled the case block assembly off yet as looks like it's spring loaded, wanted to make sure of what I was doing before I tried to remove. Found the Dillon parts page and printed the drawing for the platform assembly for a better look at the part in question.

 

After lots of cleaning, lubing, tightening, etc ran a batch of 223 last night. Ran into another issue that may be related that I have not had before. About one out of three of the 223 cases were not going all the way into the shell plate and were tipped. I had to manually tip the case vertical or completely reinsert into the locator slide and shell plate. Pulled the station locator slide and tested with a casing and looks like the slide is not capturing the head of the case and I can tip it out of the slide. Don't remember ever having that issue. Also seemed like the full assembly was not pushing the cases all the way into the shell plate. Weak spring?

 

Considering I may have over 10,000 small primer loads run thru the press, what would I be looking for for wear on the case feed assembly block? It does feel rather sloppy when I grab it and wiggle.

 

If you are going to take apart the case feed slide assembly it is best to remove the camming pin first.  That will allow you to manipulate the case feed slide assembly without interference. 

To remove the slide assembly you have to remove the slide spring pin (#13311). Be careful as you remove it as the spring is under tension. Remove it and check the underside of the slide for the wear that is shown in that picture. 

 

Your problem with the cases inserting onto the shell plate could very well be related to a problem with the case feed slide.

One of the side effects of the wear shown in that picture is that it acts as if the internal spring has lost tension.

I've also had that spring break on one occasion.

 

Another issue could be if the station 1 locator has gotten dinged up but I think that is less likely.

 

Question: From your picture it appears you have an aftermarket camming pin. Is it possible these problems showed up following the installation of that part?

The position of that camming pin is intimately related to how far a case gets pushed onto the shell plate.

It is possible some fine tuning of the camming pin might help.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by ddc
grammar

[DIYguy]

Thanks ddc. Interesting you mentioned the cammng pin.  I've been running the upgraded version for a few years so that is existing. As part of the various tests to see what might be causing the primmer seater plunger to rest proud I thought the camming pin might be holding the case insert slide back. I adjusted the rod about 1-1/2 full revolutions higher so the roller bearing is still in alignment. Thanks for pointing that out, I should lower it back down as I did not have that case feed issue before the adjustment.

 

On another note. I did go through the tech support page with Dillon and explained the seater plunger problem. They eventually responded that they would send a replacement small primmer seater assembly. I'll be curious to see if a new seater with stronger spring makes a difference.

 

On an unrelated topic as we're looking at the drawings for the platform assembly, I'm curious about the spent primmer assembly. About the only part of my press that has NOT been upgraded is the cup system for spent primers. The only upgrade that I have seen uses a hose feeding to a bottle mounted on the riser base. Lot of motion with the hose that didn't impress me as an upgrade. Buddy of mine installed that upgrade and ended up going back to the original cup. Are you familiar with a different system for capturing spent primers that doesn't bounce large quantities all over the bench and floor?

[ddc]

I have an adapter that accepts a hose similar to the system your buddy used.

However rather than run the hose into a bottle I just have a long hose and I cap the end of it. 

When the hose gets about half full I pull the cap and dump the primers into an old powder container.

 

It has been a long time so I don't recall who I purchased the adapter from. 

I believe there were multiple options.

The hose is from HomeDepot/Lowes.

 

 

[DIYguy]

Thanks dcc. Has the adapter worked at keeping primers from bouncing all over? I like your idea as trying to anchor the end and flexing the tube creates to much movement.

[ddc]

1 hour ago, DIYguy said:

Thanks dcc. Has the adapter worked at keeping primers from bouncing all over? I like your idea as trying to anchor the end and flexing the tube creates to much movement.

 

Yes, there is no place for them to go other than into the tube. 

 

I wasn't a big fan of the flexing either but I'm guessing that it would work just fine. Your buddy didn't like it though so there is that.

 

The way I have mine set up the tube just slides up and down with the shell plate. I run the tubing through the opening in one of the C-clamps that holds the press to the bench.

That locates it enough so it doesn't flap all over the place and there is no friction on it to wear through the tubing. That tube has lasted at least 75k rounds. Probably a lot more.

[DIYguy]

dcc: Pulled the Case Insert Slide, couple images attached. Had to use the magnifier lens to look at the pin but figured it out. After cam rod removed had to take small needle nose pliers, push the black plastic clip back from the slide spring pin where it clips into the notch in the pin. Place finger over end of slide while removing the pin so not chasing the spring. Not to bad.

My slide not as bad as the image you shared but also not sure what the slide looks like normally. I'm assuming no notch as shown. Figure time to order a replacement anyway.

[ddc]

Not as bad as I thought it might be. But possibly enough to affect operation.

 

I'd give Dillon a call and tell them it is getting worn.

I've called them twice now for that problem and both times they sent the entire case insert slide assembly including spring and pin.

[DIYguy]

To late for that call, I already ordered the replacement parts. They have already shipped the replacement small primer plunger assembly based on the email I just received.

 

Found another spent primer recovery option that seems to be a blend of the adapter to replace the metal bracket with a hose connection and variation of what you have going. May do a separate thread once I receive it and give it a test. Concept looks good.

[ddc]

 Sounds good, good luck.

[DIYguy]

dcc: Inspired by your set-up for the spend primer tube I had my buddy bring over couple parts for the systems he's used to experiment with. He didn't like either one so he went back to using the cup. Using material on hand rigged up a similar recovery system to what you showed. Mocked it up on my press to test it and then sent him home with the parts for his machine.

[ddc]

That looks like it should work just fine.

[sharko]

I saw one of those hose adapters for sale and thought it looked printed, so I went to thingyverse, found and printed it. It works great and I was always messing with my 650 to get it to not bounce spent primers on my bench. My 750 seems not to have the problem but I converted it just to not have to keep dumping it.

 

[DIYguy]

Sharko:  Did you use a PVC tube with an ID larger than the vinyl tube OD so the vinyl tube could slide up and down inside the fixed tube?

(I'll probably do another thread pertaining to upgrades and hacks as this one is veering a bit)

[sharko]

4 hours ago, DIYguy said:

Sharko:  Did you use a PVC tube with an ID larger than the vinyl tube OD so the vinyl tube could slide up and down inside the fixed tube?

(I'll probably do another thread pertaining to upgrades and hacks as this one is veering a bit)

Yes

Edited April 8, 2022 by sharko

[ddc]

I like it.

[sharko]

On the primer seating, the case insert slide has little to do with primer seating, the spring lever that holds the case in in the primer station has more. Make sure your machine is aligned and the shellplate has no wobble in it. I stopped using my Dillon for priming because I would always get a few upside down or sideways out of a thousand. I cleaned and lubed and replaced the spring in the primer feed, tightened the shellplate down and went the last 5K without a reject. I still question if the primer loading tubes aren't prone to flipping some though as I have more issues with large primers.

On the camming pin, I use that same bearing tipped one, I found that you can push the brass too far in such that it would cock back/out and cause issues with sizing alignment.