Troubleshooting TSO .40 feeding

[Guitarmageddon]

Got a new-to-me TSO in .40. Generally, really loving the gun. Day one, using supervel factory ammo, about 10 of 100 rounds had feeding issues. Second day out I loaded up some blue bullets 180s to 1.160, and 200s to 1.110. So pretty long, or, pretty short. Didnt have an issue. When testing out some different weights of factory stuff yesterday, it did NOT like PMC 180s. It would look like the pics Im posting below. I have 3 mags with the CZC baseplates and some 13 coil springs, and 3 factory mags that are stock from what I can see. 

When doing some drills with dummies I made of those previously mentioned blues 180s/220s at 1.160/1.110 respectively, I would get about one misfeed per magazine. I believe these are CZ custom bases springs and followers?  At first I thought it was me just getting used to the thumbrest after not having a gun with one before. But, I really dont think thats whats causing these now. Also, chamber is reamed so it can load quite long if I desired.

I heard sometimes the extractor spring channel gets dirty, or the springs can be replaced, so I placed in a brand new extra strength CZ custom one a few days ago. Is it that these springs and followers just suck? Should I have the mags tuned? Ive seen people mention grams for tuning, but not sure if theres stuff I can change on my own without replacing everything in the gun. Currently really liking the 15lb recoil spring with 165-180gr bullets so thats whats in there at the moment. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Guitarmageddon

[obsessiveshooter]

Your base pads are golden, definitely not the issue.  The CZC followers and springs kinda suck, in that if they get bent the wrong way you'll have lots of misfeeds.  Once bent correctly they work great.  I'd try the grams springs and followers as a first step. 

I also kinda wonder if there is a burr, maybe or an issue with the extractor not letting the base of the case slide up the breech face.  Or, what if the previous owner bought a 9mm barrel and a 9mm extractor and he left the extractor in. 

Something is really wrong because it should run perfect.  

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

You mean your using 10 coil springs ??

 

[Guitarmageddon]

49 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

You mean your using 10 coil springs ??

 

Maybe I counted wrong. Whatever the longer config is.

 

So I ran the stock mags today with 180 rnfp, loaded to 1.126-1.129. all fine. So must be something with the extended springs/follower. Need to get my hands on some grams but he doesn't pick up the phone, return calls, or answer emails. He still in business?

[Guitarmageddon]

1 hour ago, obsessiveshooter said:

Your base pads are golden, definitely not the issue.  The CZC followers and springs kinda suck, in that if they get bent the wrong way you'll have lots of misfeeds.  Once bent correctly they work great.  I'd try the grams springs and followers as a first step. 

I also kinda wonder if there is a burr, maybe or an issue with the extractor not letting the base of the case slide up the breech face.  Or, what if the previous owner bought a 9mm barrel and a 9mm extractor and he left the extractor in. 

Something is really wrong because it should run perfect.  

Where would you get a 40 extractor? I see 9mm ones at Cajun but not 40. Thought about getting an extra one to keep on hand but ran into that.

 

Would it be this one?

https://czcustom.com/cz-parts-all/extractors/cz-75-extractor-40-s-w.html

 

Here is the one In the gun currently.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Guitarmageddon

[Reds_Dot]

13 hours ago, obsessiveshooter said:

Your base pads are golden, definitely not the issue.  The CZC followers and springs kinda suck, in that if they get bent the wrong way you'll have lots of misfeeds.  Once bent correctly they work great.  I'd try the grams springs and followers as a first step. 

 

 

^^^ This ^^^ 

I have found the OE springs and followers actually work well with the CZC basepads. I can get a reloadable 20 rounds in the mag with them. You might want to try that. 

 

12 hours ago, Guitarmageddon said:

Maybe I counted wrong. Whatever the longer config is.

 

So I ran the stock mags today with 180 rnfp, loaded to 1.126-1.129. all fine. So must be something with the extended springs/follower. Need to get my hands on some grams but he doesn't pick up the phone, return calls, or answer emails. He still in business?

 Typically they are either 10 or 11 coil springs. 

 

You can buy the Grams units (Sku# FKCL-11) at these places: 

https://taylorfreelancestore.com/grams-spring-follower-kit-140mm-cz-tac-sport-fkcl-11/

 

https://patriotdefense.com/grams-engineering-follower-kit-cz-9mm-40sw145mm-large-frame-fkcl-11/

 

I Suggest you try the OE springs and followers from the 17rd configuration. They may work better than you expect.

[Guitarmageddon]

36 minutes ago, Reds_Dot said:

 

^^^ This ^^^ 

I have found the OE springs and followers actually work well with the CZC basepads. I can get a reloadable 20 rounds in the mag with them. You might want to try that. 

 

 Typically they are either 10 or 11 coil springs. 

 

You can buy the Grams units (Sku# FKCL-11) at these places: 

https://taylorfreelancestore.com/grams-spring-follower-kit-140mm-cz-tac-sport-fkcl-11/

 

https://patriotdefense.com/grams-engineering-follower-kit-cz-9mm-40sw145mm-large-frame-fkcl-11/

 

I Suggest you try the OE springs and followers from the 17rd configuration. They may work better than you expect.

So you're saying OE springs and followers in the longer config? That's what I thought the 13 coil ones would aid in reliability for? I just assumed they wouldn't have the "oomf" to push a 20 round fully loaded mag up to feed properly.

 

In any case, I'll experiment with that on the range this afternoon.

[zzt]

CZC springs are weaker than the stock factory springs.  Eventually they will not be strong enough to push the last round up high enough to be stripped.  The only advantage to using CZC springs and followers with their base pads is 21 reloadable.  

 

CZ stock 11 coil springs and followers work just fine with the stock mag and CZC base pad.  However, they may not work in a particular mag/CZC Base Pad.  Just swap stuff around until you get them all working.  When I take the mags apart for cleaning, I make sure all the same parts go back in.  

[Guitarmageddon]

5 minutes ago, zzt said:

CZC springs are weaker than the stock factory springs.  Eventually they will not be strong enough to push the last round up high enough to be stripped.  The only advantage to using CZC springs and followers with their base pads is 21 reloadable.  

 

CZ stock 11 coil springs and followers work just fine with the stock mag and CZC base pad.  However, they may not work in a particular mag/CZC Base Pad.  Just swap stuff around until you get them all working.  When I take the mags apart for cleaning, I make sure all the same parts go back in.  

 

I didnt know that. Thanks. I did get a grams 11 coil/follower but BSPS only had one. Ill see how that one goes, and Ill also play around with the stock springs too. 

[CZ_FAN]

In pics showing the feed issue, the bullets are feeding into the barrel but not fully positioned upward behind extractor - perhaps the extractor is too tight?   I had a similar situation with TSO a couple years back so I shortened (clipped) the extractor spring by one loop and haven't had a problem since.  As others have mentioned there are several things that can cause the issue you are experiencing but just wanted to share my experience.  

[warpcorps]

21 hours ago, Guitarmageddon said:

Where would you get a 40 extractor? I see 9mm ones at Cajun but not 40. Thought about getting an extra one to keep on hand but ran into that.

 

Would it be this one?

https://czcustom.com/cz-parts-all/extractors/cz-75-extractor-40-s-w.html 

 

Here is the one In the gun currently.

 

From this picture it looks like your extractor  may be toast. If the extractor is laying flat in this pic it’s bad. There is a small metal tooth on the opposite side of the extractor that has to be there for it to work correctly. If it’s not there it will work, but you WILL experience more frequent malfunctions. 

 

Here’s a pic of the tooth:  Call CZC or CZ for replacements. 

https://czcustom.com/cz-parts-all/extractors/cz-75-extractor-40-s-w.html Is Correct

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by warpcorps

[Guitarmageddon]

10 minutes ago, warpcorps said:

 

From this picture it looks like your extractor  may be toast. If the extractor is laying flat in this pic it’s bad. There is a small metal tooth on the opposite side of the extractor that has to be there for it to work correctly. If it’s not there you it will work, but you WILL experience more frequent malfunctions. 

 

Here’s a pic of the tooth: 

 

Oh i think the tooth is there. Good right? I did fire another 100 rounds in practice today, stock mags only, and they all were fine. Beginning to think it was mostly related to the CZC springs.

Would this be the correct extractor, just so I can have an extra on hand?
https://czcustom.com/cz-parts-all/extractors/cz-75-extractor-40-s-w.html

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Guitarmageddon

[warpcorps]

39 minutes ago, Guitarmageddon said:

 

Oh i think the tooth is there. Good right? I did fire another 100 rounds in practice today, stock mags only, and they all were fine. Beginning to think it was mostly related to the CZC springs.

Would this be the correct extractor, just so I can have an extra on hand?
https://czcustom.com/cz-parts-all/extractors/cz-75-extractor-40-s-w.html
 

 

Yes - That is the correct extractor. 

[Guitarmageddon]

The struggle continues. Had a few perfect sessions with 180 RNFP and stock mags feeding fine. I go to test 165 blues that I recently acquired, and I had two misfeeds. Id hate to think this gun/feed ramp is THAT picky with bullet profiles but maybe it is so? Loaded to 1.125. I will go back to 180gr Blues RNFP to confirm that assessment and see. The profile of the 165 and 180 is virtually identical however.

I do have a spare extractor coming so I guess I can experiment with replacing that, as well as clipping one spring coil from my extra extractor spring. This one has me scratching my head but Im trying to me systematic about what variables Im testing. 

 

[NoSteel]

Never ran the 165gr but the pics on their website do show a slightly different profile on the 165gr compared to 180gr with a ridge at the end of the taper.  Is this the case or just an older design picture?  Have you tried making up some dummy rounds, coat up with a sharpie and cycle them thru?  This will give you some contact marks you can inspect and compare good round to bad which may guide you on feed-lip adjustments.  Or,  just run the 180gr and sell the 165gr!

[Guitarmageddon]

10 minutes ago, NoSteel said:

Never ran the 165gr but the pics on their website do show a slightly different profile on the 165gr compared to 180gr with a ridge at the end of the taper.  Is this the case or just an older design picture?  Have you tried making up some dummy rounds, coat up with a sharpie and cycle them thru?  This will give you some contact marks you can inspect and compare good round to bad which may guide you on feed-lip adjustments.  Or,  just run the 180gr and sell the 165gr!

Yep it has that little rim, which is odd. I guess that could be driving some issues. But I go back to.....is this gun THAT picky with bullet profile? Guess I load up some more 180s and test the concept. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

All guns are different but  I have had the 

same 10 coil czc springs in my mags for 2-3 years now. No issues 
But I run 200gr and a 11-12lbs recoil spring.  
When does it happen in the mag Column  ? First few rounds , last few ?

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Superkaratemonkeyfighter

[Guitarmageddon]

4 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

All guns are different but  I have had the 

same 10 coil czc springs in my mags for 2-3 years now. No issues 
But I run 200gr and a 11-12lbs recoil spring.  
When does it happen in the mag Column  ? First few rounds , last few ?

 

 

It has done with the first round off a mag, its done it after firing several. It seems to be hit and miss. Ive also starting filling the stock mags to one short of full, to try and isolate an absolutely jammed full mag being finicky. 

[Guitarmageddon]

And just for reference, here is the 165 blues versus 180s. I got the behavior Ive been discussing with multiple profiles and on factory, but, the odd rim on the blues 165s was something worth noting. I didnt notice it at first but its also pictured on their site, so i guess its part of their mold. weird. 

[zzt]

G, loaded to 1.126" my TS fed every bullet profile perfectly.  That included 155 and 175 LSWCs.  Several types of poly coated, lubed lead and plated made zero difference.  This was with CZ stock springs and followers with CZC extended base pads.

 

I don't remember all the advice you got in this thread, so this might be repetitious.  First, if you are using a shock buffer, remove it.  Next check your recoil spring.  It may be too heavy for your load.  You want the slide to travel all the way to the rear, with enough dwell time to make sure the mag spring has pushed the next round up and into position to be stripped.  Finally, make sure you are not limp wristing.  Also, check the consistency of your loads.  It may be your powder drops are not consistent, and you get a misfeed whenever you fire that lighter load.  Same effect as limp wristing.  The slide does not go back far enough and returns before the next round is in the correct position.

 

If you don't have the next lighter recoil spring, make your load a little hotter.

[Guitarmageddon]

12 minutes ago, zzt said:

G, loaded to 1.126" my TS fed every bullet profile perfectly.  That included 155 and 175 LSWCs.  Several types of poly coated, lubed lead and plated made zero difference.  This was with CZ stock springs and followers with CZC extended base pads.

 

I don't remember all the advice you got in this thread, so this might be repetitious.  First, if you are using a shock buffer, remove it.  Next check your recoil spring.  It may be too heavy for your load.  You want the slide to travel all the way to the rear, with enough dwell time to make sure the mag spring has pushed the next round up and into position to be stripped.  Finally, make sure you are not limp wristing.  Also, check the consistency of your loads.  It may be your powder drops are not consistent, and you get a misfeed whenever you fire that lighter load.  Same effect as limp wristing.  The slide does not go back far enough and returns before the next round is in the correct position.

 

If you don't have the next lighter recoil spring, make your load a little hotter.

Yea the shock buffer was tossed on day one, after I did some research and recieved that advice. I currently am about 169 PF with these RNFP blues, at 1.125. I am using the 15lb spring but I have a 14 and 13lb. You think the 15lb is too heavy? I admit I havent had the time to take video and do some thorough analysis of follow up shots to see how the muzzle is moving under fast shooting. Maybe I go with the 14 or 13lb and test out this week.

[zzt]

39 minutes ago, Guitarmageddon said:

You think the 15lb is too heavy?

 

Yes.  I ran a 14 with 172 PF loads.  It also worked with 144 PF minor loads for steel challenge.

[Guitarmageddon]

Just now, zzt said:

 

Yes.  I ran a 14 with 172 PF loads.  It also worked with 144 PF minor loads for steel challenge.

Good to know. Was thinking of running this gun in steel challenge as well, but was likely going to do major PF for the trigger time. But wont go head first into that until I get this feeding sorted. For now, the wheelgun is dedicated steel challenge 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

15 should work fine and function 100%
11-13lbs is where I would want to be for a .40 major 169-173 pf 

just my two cents. 
but I doubt this is causing that feeding issue. If you still had the buffer and it’s over sprung ..maybe it’s getting a bounce but not the case 

[zzt]

1 hour ago, Guitarmageddon said:

Was thinking of running this gun in steel challenge as well, but was likely going to do major PF for the trigger time.

 

It is not going to help you.  Major PF trigger time is good to improve your splits.  There are no splits in SCSA.  You shoot once and move on.  Just make sure your minor load shots to the same POI and the major.