Junior Shooter Denied

[Skywalker]

As in the rest of life, there are two kinds of people that we have to deal with.......those who try their best to say "yes" and find a way for something to work out, and those who take great joy in saying "no".

I can relate to this.

At European Shotgun Championship in Terni, 2003, we had a junior (16) shooter competing in the main event, although Italian laws allowed only competitors of 18+ age to shoot a gun, unless you shoot olympic pistol or trap/skeet clays.

We strived our best to let him compete, and we finally succeded.

[Two Mikes]

I dream of the day that I can bring my daughter shooting with me! I see dads shooting with their kids and its really heart warming. I seem always to have kids on my squad and try to give them encouragement. They aren't just the future of our sport, they are the future of liberty.

The MD was a real turkey for several reasons .....

one, he stopped you and your son from shooting and made up some BS excuse (possession of guns by a minor is permitted at competitions - most states have this on their books).

two, he was enforcing IDPA rules at a USPSA match. IDPA has the minimum age requirement of 12 years old. (IDPA is doing more to hurt gun ownership in the US than the Brady campaign with that dumb rule). USPSA doesn't have an age requirement. I think this is what happened because Mr. Turkey mentioned he doesn't run IDPA anymore, I have no doubt why.

Don't quit trying to shot with your son .... btw, don't forget about GSSF and steel challenge matches. Kids are both welcome there and at most USPSA matches not run by turkeys

[SRT Driver]

Unless there is a club rule against it, I'm suprised that the MD didn't make an attempt to work with anyone on this.

At our club, first time USPSA competitors receive a briefing about rules, safety, what they'll see, what not to do etc. No safety check but an experienced shooter stays with them on the squad to answer questions etc. And they get a free match fee.

Age doesn't make a difference. If fact, some young shooters handle themselves better than old, more "experienced" shooters.

[Carmoney]

They aren't just the future of our sport, they are the future of liberty.

Mike, thanks for making such a great point!

[rubberneck]

IDPA is doing more to hurt gun ownership in the US than the Brady campaign with that dumb rule.

WTF? That comment was 100% completely out of line and so wrong on so many levels it defies rational logic. I don't care if you have issues with IDPA just do us a favor and keep them to yourself not to mention it is a board rule.

[Two Mikes]

IDPA is doing more to hurt gun ownership in the US than the Brady campaign with that dumb rule.

WTF? That comment was 100% completely out of line and so wrong on so many levels it defies rational logic. I don't care if you have issues with IDPA just do us a favor and keep them to yourself not to mention it is a board rule.

I don't have issues with IDPA. I have big issues with their age limit rule. The rule establishes an unneccessary hurdle for young shooters regardless of their parental involvement, skill, safety, experience etc.

The rule plays into the hands of the gun banners. Don't forget how Bill Ruger aided the gun banners with his 15 round limitation on magazines for civilians proposal (so he could more efectively compete with Glock). The banners ran with the concept and restricted it futher down to 10 rounds. Thanks to this age rule, the banners can point at a major shooting organization that supports a minimum age for partcipation. You can count on the Brady Campaign to take that concept and restrict it further.

An age limit prevented this young man from shooting. This exact same result that the Brady Campaign desires .... purge the knowledge of firearms from our youth so that someday no one in America will know about them.

SRT Driver defined my position ... if the shooter is safe, I don't care how young or old they are. There are some older shooters who scare the daylights out of me. I have shot with a 10 year old in USPSA with no issues (other than him beating me).

[SRT Driver]

A persons birth date does not define their maturity.. their actions do.

There are some young shooters that handle themselves more maturely than many adults do. Shooting with and/or ROing them makes me smile.

It's a shame some others don't feel the same way. Maybe they are afraid an 11 or 12 year old might beat them.

[rubberneck]

IDPA is doing more to hurt gun ownership in the US than the Brady campaign with that dumb rule.

WTF? That comment was 100% completely out of line and so wrong on so many levels it defies rational logic. I don't care if you have issues with IDPA just do us a favor and keep them to yourself not to mention it is a board rule.

I don't have issues with IDPA. I have big issues with their age limit rule. The rule establishes an unneccessary hurdle for young shooters regardless of their parental involvement, skill, safety, experience etc.

The rule plays into the hands of the gun banners. Don't forget how Bill Ruger aided the gun banners with his 15 round limitation on magazines for civilians proposal (so he could more efectively compete with Glock). The banners ran with the concept and restricted it futher down to 10 rounds. Thanks to this age rule, the banners can point at a major shooting organization that supports a minimum age for partcipation. You can count on the Brady Campaign to take that concept and restrict it further.

An age limit prevented this young man from shooting. This exact same result that the Brady Campaign desires .... purge the knowledge of firearms from our youth so that someday no one in America will know about them.

SRT Driver defined my position ... if the shooter is safe, I don't care how young or old they are. There are some older shooters who scare the daylights out of me. I have shot with a 10 year old in USPSA with no issues (other than him beating me).

The kid was trying to shoot a USPSA match not an IDPA match. The rule that you are railing against didn't have anything to do with the son being denied the right to shoot and in fact it doesn't prevent young shooters from shooting it prevents them from shooting an IDPA match. Our local club has a very, very good small bore program that is only open to children over the age of 14. That doesn't change the fact that I routinely see kids younger than that honing their skills under the guideance of an adult despite the fact that they can't participate. There is a big difference between the two.

I wonder how many posters here shot an IDPA match or a USPSA match before the age of 12? I'd be willing to bet very few have. Heck I shot all manner of firearms for close to 20 years before I shot my first IDPA match.

In the grand scheme of things it is not that big of a deal and for you to equate that with the actions of the Brady bunch was way out of line. It was stupid, unnecessary and overly provocative and quite clearly out of tune with the state parameters of this forum.

What we need is rational discussion not over the top hysterics. It is a shame that the father and son had to drive all the way to a match just to find out that the son wasn't able to shoot. I feel for the young man as it certianly could have been handled in a better manner. At least with IDPA you know up front that kids under 12 aren't eligible to participate. I know you don't care for that rule and that is your right but quite frankly I don't care.

[SRT Driver]

I wonder how many posters here shot an IDPA match or a USPSA match before the age of 12? I'd be willing to bet very few have. Heck I shot all manner of firearms for close to 20 years before I shot my first IDPA match.

While neither was around when I was 12..ask KC (who was a GM befroe 12..I think), Chris Tilley and other top shooters. Dan Horner (?) was an IDPA Nat Champion at a young age..I don't know how old though.

Mandated age limits are bogus.

[rubberneck]

Mandated age limits are bogus.

I am glad you feel that way. I don't really know what my position is on the matter as I haven't given it any serious thought. What I do know is that it is stupid to say that a sport that has a mandatory minimum does more harm to gun rights than the worst anti-gun zealots.

I wonder what my stay would be like in these parts if I had made such a foolish over the top statement about USPSA?

Edited November 15, 2005 by rubberneck

[Two Mikes]

Please do some serious thinking about the impact of the rule and whether its worth the cost of excluding our future. I'm proud that USPSA allows and encourages young shooters (camp shootout, no age limits, etc.).

[ima45dv8]

Please do some serious thinking about the impact of the rule and whether its worth the cost of excluding our future. I'm proud that USPSA allows and encourages young shooters (camp shootout, no age limits, etc.).

I understand your point, Mike, but there really isn't much going to come from thinking about it.

It is as Bill, and only Bill, says.

...Mark

[Carmoney]

I wonder how many posters here shot an IDPA match or a USPSA match before the age of 12? I'd be willing to bet very few have.

I started in competition shooting at age 21. However, my kids both started at age 10. Jill has stuck with her favorites, steel and bowling pins. By age 11, my son Sam proudly carried his own USPSA membership card in his wallet, and was already shooting USPSA matches with me across several states. Conversely, he was not eligible to participate officially in IDPA at all (although he did shoot one state IDPA match that allowed him to shoot with the up-front understanding that he would be DQ'd afterward due to his age--we appreciated the match director accommodating us and letting him shoot, but it was pretty silly considering his competence and experience, and it was a significant factor in turning us both off IDPA for good).

Now, at age 12, Sam's a veteran of the Steel Challenge, the USPSA Nationals (on the revolver super squad, no less), the Big Dawg Steel Match, the Area 3 USPSA Championships, two Missouri Fall Classics, two Iowa Single Stack Championships, the Great Plains Sectional, the Minnesota Sectional, the Ohio Sectional, the Illinois Sectional, the Rocky Mountain Regional ICORE Championship, and probably others I'm forgetting. Oh yeah--he also participated in the Junior Olympics in Table Tennis last year! :-)

[Flexmoney]

[Administrator hat on]

Folks, lets take the intensity level down a few notches. I am pretty sure we are all on the same side of most things.

A little bit less comparing IDPA to an anti-gun group...and, a little less calling other points-of-view "stupid".

Thanks.

[hopalong]

Flex,

I think your green print is "stupid".......

It surely needs to be red, blue, pink or maybe even ORANGE !!!!!!!

MR. Clean

Yes, I know you are only doing your Administrative duties !!!!!

But I'm having fun with them.

[ Kilroy was here]

Edited November 15, 2005 by Flexmoney

[Larry White]

This is not a USPSA or IDPA problem and it sure is not a USPSA vs IDPA problem. From what I read this young man has already shot ICORE events at this same range so its appirentely not a range problem. The problem seems to be one self imporant MD who has done us all a disservice.------Larry

Edited November 15, 2005 by lkytx

[SRT Driver]

This is not a USPSA or IDPA problem and it sure is not a USPSA vs IDPA problem. From what I read this young man has already shot ICORE events at this same range so its appirentely not a range problem. The problem seems to be one self imporant MD who has done us all a disservice.------Larry

X2

[hopalong]

Flex,

Alden,

If you and your father had showed up at our range in north Mississippi, not only would you have had the time of your life, we would have had it with you.

I'm sorry this happened, good luck now that you have it straightend out.

Have fun, Be safe.

HOPALONG

BTW.

Just north of you in CA is a guy named Dan Carden, he shoots wheelguns pretty good......almost as good as I do.

I told him about you and your father shooting wheels and that he needs to contact you.

His BE.com member name is D. Carden you can find it in the Revolver forums.

E-mail or PM him, even though he is from California he's a pretty good guy

[sbmd]

Hey there gang. The Junior Coordinator here. Now before I get started, I want everyone to know that I have been in the loop with the emails and I sent my opinion to the powers to be. As a CRO and Match Director, I must apologize that your son was not even given the opportunity to prove his safety skills.

USPSA has no official policy on how new shooters are inducted into our shooting style. I have seen an 12 - 4 hr week night sessions, an 8 hour day or just show up at the range and we will take you thru a 20 minute safety class. Believe me when I say anyone of those people can be DQ'd at a match, no matter what safety course you did or did not paticipate in.

The bottom line from my personal point of view is that no one, I mean no one should be denied an opportunity to participate in one of our events unless that are chemically altered at that particular time....the way I shoot sometimes, I think I am chemically altered. Ask Flex about the 2005 Nationals, he was there and saw it first hand, ugly..just ugly.

Alden, hang in there you will meet people in this sport on opposite sides of the spectrum. Some will not talk to you or even acknowledge your presence. Others will loan a total stranger their $2500 back up gun and not think twice about it, heck some will supply you a gun, ammo, holster, mag pouches and mags to shoot a match just to try the sport. I was shooting with a 10 year old this weekend, who I might say is a USPSA Range Officer and he is doing exceptionally well. We also had a potential member just come to watch. At the end of the day we handed him a gun, mags, ammo and ran him thru a course of fire under the close supervision of a CRO. What do we have now, a shooter with a huge smile on his face and can't wait until we start shooting in the spring again.

If you need anything, just let me now. My email is juniors@uspsa.org

Larry

[Clay1]

Nice post Larry. Thanks for the input.

Rick

[Rob Boudrie]

Feel grateful you don't live in NY as residents under 21 are not allowed to shoot handguns, period. Non resident visitors attending matches may shoot regardless of age.

[Flexmoney]

Ask Flex about the 2005 Nationals, he was there and saw it first hand, ugly..just ugly.

I can vouch for Larry. He truely is ugly.

He shoots pretty good though.

[Steve Moneypenny]

i think larry's performance at nationals and my golf cart indident put us pretty close together in final results. ... what's your excuse again larry ?

Shooters of any age should get the chance to prove they are safe. and if unsafe, DQ'd thats why we have those rules.

Edited November 17, 2005 by Steve Moneypenny

[richardschennberg]

All USPSA affiliated clubs get a New Shooter Checkout form with their club kit. If your club does not have one handy, get another one. Always make New Shooter Checkouts available. Makes sure you give the checkout R.O. a "shoot through" for all stages he misses while checking out new shooters. There should be several options after the checkout, depending both on R.O./instructor proficiency and shooter performance:

1. Outstanding shooter perfomance WRT safety and understanding of rules. Let him/her shoot the match for score, unless your club has a policy of always making the first USPSA match for any shooter a Coach Through.

2. Adequate shooter performance and understanding of rules. Have the shooter complete the match as a Coach Through: no official score, and the R.O.s can give coaching and instruction throughtout the match.

3. Not yet ready. Repeat the new shooter checkout or at least those portions that need more work, either this day or next practice day or match.

It is understandable to require all shooters to do the New Shooter Checkout, even if they have competed in other venues. It is also O.K. to have any shooter new to IPSC and USPSA shoot his/her first match as a Coach Through. I would like to see this done more often, as it would remove the decision of not letting someone shoot at all. If time does not permit both the checkout and the entire match, then do the checkout and the rest of the match. You can also use the Coach Through to decide if the shooter should shoot his/her next match as a Coach Through again, or is ready to shoot for score.

[Jim Norman]

We are probably very fortunate in that we have the use of our club's indoor range two nights a month. We invite all new shooters to come out and learn about USPSA at the bi-monthly indoor Practice Match.

One or more of our members gives about an hour to an hour and a hlf lecture on the history of USPSA, the Rules of the Game, safety and how to paly the game, what equipment you need and so on.

It is as stated an Introduction to the sport, not an advanced course. We then take the shooter out to the range and do a live fire safety check, generally engage two targets with two rounds each, reload and reengage, then ULSC. Some of these people do not have a holster or mag pouches but we allow them to shoot from low ready. IF they pass this live fire drill, they are paired with a senior shooter and walked/coached throughthe four stages of the match. Most do pass, but not all. IF they have a hosler and successfully complete the match, they are pretty much welcomed in. If they have problems, they are invited back for additional coaching. Very few people have any problems with this style. We have kids as young as 10 that have shot with us and honestly, most of them I feel better about than a 30 something that got his first gun last week. Many if not most of these people have gone on to become mebers of not only USPSA, but also of our club.

Now, what do we do if the new guy shows up at the outdoor "Regular Match" We do a safety lecture with emphasis on the rules pertaining to Safety and a lve fire check, they are then placed on a squad with some of our senior shooters and watched or if necessary, coached through the match. By coaching, we don't mean we wal them from target to target while shooting, but rather we explain in detail how to shoot the COF and emphasize WALK DON'T RUN, just have fun. Rarely do we have any problem with these people. Unlke the indoor match, we do require a holster to actually compete in the offical match.

In our Section we instituted a program where if you join USPSA at a match, you get to shoot that match for free. (Renewals are not a part of this program) We have grown our indoor training/practice match so that we regularly attract in excess of 30 people!

Anyway, all this is about really just one thing. Invite them in, they will come. Make your USPSA club a welcoming socieity,not an elitist group. Remember, what we do towards bringing in new, especially younger members will go a long way towards determining whether or not our grandchildren will be able to do what we take for granted.

Help sow the seeds of a bright future, turning away almost anyone is not in the best interest of the shooting sports or of our sport in particular. Let's be honest, what we do is not and will never be PC, You might make bullseye or skeet PC, but Practical (read combat) shooting, not likely. We must educate people that what we are doing is in reality no diferent than what the SASS people are doing, we just spend our money on guns, not period costumes.

Jim Norman