650 9mm brass tipping outwards when going into station #1

[Sad-Hill]

So the 650 is giving me case tipping outwards for the second time in 7 years when the case gets pushed into station #1 was able to remedy the error last time now its back and for the life of me cant get it to stop. I am using the Lee U die in the station which is needed in my opinion when reloading 9mm range brass that comes out of machine guns anyway I installed the Dillon die and the issue is gone WTF??
I have read on these forums of this issue for a few hours and it can be many things causing this. Everything has been cleaned and relubed and wow what a feel of difference grease and oil the ram once in a while. Anyway I am assuming the wider mouth on the Dillon die is letting the brass into the die easier. So now I am going to open the mouth area of the Lee die and see if that helps.

What is actually happening the brass gets into station one full then just tips back slightly its more of a tip outward then you have to bump it with your finger to feed.
Anyone else have a suggestion other than cleaning and realignment it has all been done. I have to use some type of full length die otherwise they will not all gauge correctly 

When these Dillons work they can crank out the cartridges but when they don't work what a pain.

 

Thank you 

[Sad-Hill]

One addition the machine was realigned as well just for the sake if doing it.

[Zane1973]

Could it possibly be dirt inside the grooves of the shell plate?  

[MikeyScuba]

Make sure the case feed spring isn’t about to break. Replace it, clean everything and see what happens.

[Sad-Hill]

2 hours ago, Zane1973 said:

Could it possibly be dirt inside the grooves of the shell plate?  

yes have done that when I cleaned the machine

[Sad-Hill]

Just now, MikeyScuba said:

Make sure the case feed spring isn’t about to break. Replace it, clean everything and see what happens.

ok I will try that 

[Sad-Hill]

2 hours ago, Sad-Hill said:

ok I will try that 

no change 

 

 

[MikeyScuba]

Hmm. Last suggestion, make sure there is lots of grease under the station locater 

[George16]

6 hours ago, Sad-Hill said:

 

What is actually happening the brass gets into station one full then just tips back slightly its more of a tip outward then you have to bump it with your finger to feed.
Anyone else have a suggestion other than cleaning and realignment it has all been done. I have to use some type of full length die otherwise they will not all gauge correctly 

When these Dillons work they can crank out the cartridges but when they don't work what a pain.

 

Thank you 

This is happening because the cam is not adjusted properly and the brass is hitting the shell plate and bouncing back. This has happened with my 650 before. I adjusted the camming pin until the case is fully inserted without bouncing back from shell plate due to over insertion. 
 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by George16

[stick]

8 hours ago, George16 said:

This is happening because the cam is not adjusted properly and the brass is hitting the shell plate and bouncing back. This has happened with my 650 before. I adjusted the camming pin until the case is fully inserted without bouncing back from shell plate due to over insertion. 
 

 

 

Hmm.  But it doesn't do it with the Dillon die installed.  Thankfully, I've never encountered that issue with my XL650.  What about the indexing spring that goes around the bottom of the shell plate? (indexer return spring)  I had one bend and it gave me fits until I replaced it.

[George16]

2 hours ago, stick said:

Hmm.  But it doesn't do it with the Dillon die installed.  Thankfully, I've never encountered that issue with my XL650.  What about the indexing spring that goes around the bottom of the shell plate? (indexer return spring)  I had one bend and it gave me fits until I replaced it.

It doesn’t do it on the Dillon die because of the slightly bigger and radiused opening of the die. It’s a good idea to also check and make sure all the springs are in good working order.

[ddc]

If the case is "tilting" as you say then it doesn't matter what die is installed. The "tilt" has nothing to do with the die.

The dillon die may mask the problem due to it having a slightly more forgiving radius at the mouth.

 

When I've had case interference problems at station 1 I've done the following on various occasions:

1. With the tool head completely populated: 

1a. Loosen the lock ring on the sizing die

1b. Raise the tool head until cases are completely inserted

1c. Tighten lock ring on sizing die

 

When that doesn't work I've had to fiddle with either or both: #16676 the indexer block, #13371 the camming pin

 

Adjusting 16676: If this is not adjusted correctly the shell plate will not be in the exact position it needs to be when the case is inserted.

This can cause the case to not be placed into the exact position it needs to be, it might catch a bit on the edge of the shell holder and then "bounce around" and ends up not exactly where it needs to be and then hits the sizing die.

 

Adjusting 13371: if this is not adjusted correctly then the case will either not be inserted far enough into the shell plate, which will obviously cause a problem,

or inserted far enough so that it hits the far side of the shell holder and rebounds back far enough to cause a problem.

 

It's also possible that your shell plate is warped or there is some problem with the silver station 1 locator.

 

If you have another tool head you might try that also.

Edited February 15, 2021 by ddc
added additional comment

[BubbaB]

On 2/14/2021 at 8:39 PM, George16 said:

This is happening because the cam is not adjusted properly and the brass is hitting the shell plate and bouncing back. This has happened with my 650 before. I adjusted the camming pin until the case is fully inserted without bouncing back from shell plate due to over insertion. 
 

 

 

This was happening to me and what George16 said fixed my problem.  I was pushing the case too far and it was rocking back. When it rocked back it slid a tiny bit and tilted outward.  I backed off on the camming pin until it barely put the case all the way in the shell plate.

That fixed my tilting 9mm cases.  I hope you find your fix.  

 

(I use a Lee undersize die in station 1.  Also I bought a new 9mm shell plate thinking that was the problem but that did not fix the tilting case problem.)

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by BubbaB

[boatdoc173]

when this happened to me recently, I had to  tighten the shell plate to allow just enough play to move the rounds as I work on them( using my 550c)  but not enough play to allow the shells to be loose. and as George said, check the spring holding up the bearing under the plate too as ell as othe r  springs in use for thi s purpose