Rules Question: Round dumping in the open...

[Reds_Dot]

Okay I am fairly out of date on the rules at this point so somebody who is more current and can point out where in the rulebook this is or isn't covered would be helpful.

 

Here is the scenario I am trying to clarify (this didn't happen just a thought experiment):

 

Shooting from a position of cover (POC 1) and you successfully engage all the targets. You then are moving, in the open, to a new POC (POC 2). While on the move and in the open to POC 2 you turn and shoot at the already engaged targets (assuming no 180 or muzzle safe point break). Is that legal?

Extension of that scenario: You have successfully engaged the targets from POC 1 then are moving to POC 2 the next array would require a flat footed reload so you can reload with retention on the way. What if I chose to round dump into the already engaged targets on the run over to do an emergency reload while on my way to POC 2, is that legal?

 

Thanks ahead of time for any clarity that can be provided. Also if you can point out where in the rule book I should be looking to sort this sort of thing out for myself in the future that would be super helpful.

[Racinready300ex]

There is no longer a rule against round dumping.

 

One note, you get DQ'd for shooting anything other than a target. So sending one into the berm between two targets to dump that round can get you sent home. Both of you're scenario's you're reengaging a target so you're good.

[Reds_Dot]

15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

There is no longer a rule against round dumping.

Good to know. I didn't see anything about it in the 2017 Rules (latest I could find) but I wasn't sure.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

One note, you get DQ'd for shooting anything other than a target. So sending one into the berm between two targets to dump that round can get you sent home. Both of you're scenario's you're reengaging a target so you're good.

 

Okay. I found that 5.4 "Disqualifications" Section E: Intentionally discharging the firearm at anything other than a target or an activator.

 

Okay it's the Fault Lines/POC rules that are a bit fuzzy to me. 

 

3.6.3 "When Fault Lines are used to delineate cover" Section C : A shooter who engages a target while faulting the line (which is defined as the shooter touching the ground or other objects on the non-cover side of the fault line) shall be assessed a PE.

 

Also:

3.2.5 "A target is considered 'Engaged' when" Section A (for simplicity of the thought experiment): A cardboard target is deemed to have been engaged when the required number of shots for that target have been fired at the target.

 

3.2.7 "Target engagement penalties shall not apply in the following cases" Section C : Targets may be re-engaged from other shooting positions provided the shooter does not break the defined Muzzle Safe Points

 

Emphasis mine. In theory this makes it seem like the only time you are permitted to engage or re-engage targets is from defined POCs so you couldn't "round dump" out of cover as in my example earlier or is there somewhere else I missed that allows you to re-engage targets in the open between POCs?

I, again, appreciate the help. 

 

 

[Jim Watson]

A shooting position is from behind the fault line oriented on a target or targets.  The fault line is not just the length of the board, it extends to the edge of the stage.  IDPA seldom if ever has a rear fault line (such as got me a procedural at last month's USPSA) so there is theoretically a large area to shoot at that target or previous ones within the muzzle safe points.  

 

As a practical matter, I have looked at such opportunities and  concluded that getting oriented to make an apparent good faith effort to reengage and hit those targets is slower than a slidelock reload.    

Also, course design around here will usually severely limit opportunities to reengage a target from between POCs.

The usual method of dumping rounds in such cases is to pick a target to shoot extra at in the normal order of engagement.

 

A related situation is to have to make a long shot early in a stage.  But then you find you can see that target from the last shooting position on the stage.  No reason not to quickly shoot it again if you have ammo left in the gun.  I picked up points on a swinger that way last week.   

 

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, Reds_Dot said:

Good to know. I didn't see anything about it in the 2017 Rules (latest I could find) but I wasn't sure.

 

 

 

Okay. I found that 5.4 "Disqualifications" Section E: Intentionally discharging the firearm at anything other than a target or an activator.

 

Okay it's the Fault Lines/POC rules that are a bit fuzzy to me. 

 

3.6.3 "When Fault Lines are used to delineate cover" Section C : A shooter who engages a target while faulting the line (which is defined as the shooter touching the ground or other objects on the non-cover side of the fault line) shall be assessed a PE.

 

Also:

3.2.5 "A target is considered 'Engaged' when" Section A (for simplicity of the thought experiment): A cardboard target is deemed to have been engaged when the required number of shots for that target have been fired at the target.

 

3.2.7 "Target engagement penalties shall not apply in the following cases" Section C : Targets may be re-engaged from other shooting positions provided the shooter does not break the defined Muzzle Safe Points

 

Emphasis mine. In theory this makes it seem like the only time you are permitted to engage or re-engage targets is from defined POCs so you couldn't "round dump" out of cover as in my example earlier or is there somewhere else I missed that allows you to re-engage targets in the open between POCs?

I, again, appreciate the help. 

 

I read other shooting positions the same way you do, but that isn't how IDPA has said that should be applied. They have said other shooting positions is basically anywhere on the stage that you can do it safely. One exception is at the end of a stage all the way down range you can't go past the final fault line. As normal with IDPA if you see a situation ahead of time it's best to ask. I've seen this rule applied incorrectly at matches before. 

 

So the way it should work is once you've engaged a target you can shoot at it as many more times as you want from where ever you want as long as you're safe. 

[Reds_Dot]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I read other shooting positions the same way you do, but that isn't how IDPA has said that should be applied. They have said other shooting positions is basically anywhere on the stage that you can do it safely. One exception is at the end of a stage all the way down range you can't go past the final fault line. As normal with IDPA if you see a situation ahead of time it's best to ask. I've seen this rule applied incorrectly at matches before. 

 

So the way it should work is once you've engaged a target you can shoot at it as many more times as you want from where ever you want as long as you're safe. 

 

Sounds like a plan. I hopefully will never run into this issue in particular but I would rather know about a corner case than be dumbfounded and leave time on the table. Thanks!

[Racinready300ex]

There are a few things in the rule book that don't make much sense the way they are worded. I just ask lots of dumb questions in a attempt to not get PE's. It's still fairly rare to make it through a major match with out one. 

[Jim Watson]

Apply Rule Zero.  Ask the SO what he wants done then do it as fast as possible.

I brought up three such gamey sounding things at my last match.  The SO (MD) nixed two of them but did the other himself.  

[Ontos]

On 11/20/2020 at 4:43 PM, Jim Watson said:

Apply Rule Zero.  Ask the SO what he wants done then do it as fast as possible.

I brought up three such gamey sounding things at my last match.  The SO (MD) nixed two of them but did the other himself.  

If it’s not expressed in the written stage brief and it’s safe to do so or not otherwise forbidden in the rulebook it’s legal. 
 

Otherwise people are just making up rules on the fly. I don’t really care if they think it’s “gamey”. 

[Racinready300ex]

52 minutes ago, Ontos said:

If it’s not expressed in the written stage brief and it’s safe to do so or not otherwise forbidden in the rulebook it’s legal. 
 

Otherwise people are just making up rules on the fly. I don’t really care if they think it’s “gamey”. 

 

This is funny right here. 

[Ontos]

21 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

This is funny right here. 

Am I wrong? I’ve seen far too many matches where rules have been made on the fly based on the whims of an SO. 
 

If it’s legal and not addressed in the WSB nobody should care about the SO’s opinion on the matter. 

[Diver123]

I dont ask the SO what they want me to do. I do what is allowed with in the rules. Often they cant think outside the box and when I do they cant comprehend what just happened. Of coarse a well designed stage eliminates this but gives shooters options still.

 

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, Diver123 said:

I dont ask the SO what they want me to do. I do what is allowed with in the rules. Often they cant think outside the box and when I do they cant comprehend what just happened. Of coarse a well designed stage eliminates this but gives shooters options still.

 

 

Same here. 

 

I've used the re-engagement rule to my advantage more than once and beaten every SO's attempt give me a PE

 

Asking the SO whether or not you can do something that isn't against the rules and isn't covered in the stage description is bush league.

[SGT_Schultz]

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Edited November 26, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[Racinready300ex]

On 11/25/2020 at 5:09 PM, Ontos said:

Am I wrong? I’ve seen far too many matches where rules have been made on the fly based on the whims of an SO. 
 

If it’s legal and not addressed in the WSB nobody should care about the SO’s opinion on the matter. 

 

You're not wrong, we call that IDPA around here.