Mesh walls - fingers through the mesh for support

[Jollymon32]

8 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

Read the last paragraph at https://nroi.org/miscellaneous/we-need-a-ruleing/

 

Covers the dropped item that goes to the other side of our imaginary walls

 

The last sentence reads: "If the wall was really solid the magazine wouldn’t have gone through so of course the shooter can retrieve it. This won’t tear the fabric of the time/space continuum or anything."

 

That makes sense.

 

Accordingly then, the term "Solid" in 2.2.3.4 "All such barriers are considered to represent a solid plane..." means that it is only "solid" if the barrier is indeed "really solid".

 

Got it..... I think.....

 

Makes you wonder if the word "solid" should be omitted from the rule.

 

 

[broadside72]

27 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

 

The last sentence reads: "If the wall was really solid the magazine wouldn’t have gone through so of course the shooter can retrieve it. This won’t tear the fabric of the time/space continuum or anything."

 

That makes sense.

 

Accordingly then, the term "Solid" in 2.2.3.4 "All such barriers are considered to represent a solid plane..." means that it is only "solid" if the barrier is indeed "really solid".

 

Got it..... I think.....

 

Makes you wonder if the word "solid" should be omitted from the rule.

 

 

 

So to abuse the crap out of this, does it mean I can now "drop" a mag to the other side of the wall and cross under to pick it up and then continue on without crossing back to the side I was originally on? I actually commented earlier that picking up a mag from the other side was okay as long as you went back to the side you started on. 

I get the intent of the rule, hence the commentary about adding opaque areas to the walls to limit aiming through/around.  I am going to interpret the rule as intended, bullets "can't" go through and the shooter "can't" go through unless to retrieve an object that is not a bullet that has crossed over to the other side but must return to the original side before continuing. Thus putting your fingers through at the start to begin in an advantageous location is not allowed.

It's all things that seem obvious but we play this game according the rules (or lack of thereof)

[Jollymon32]

43 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

So to abuse the crap out of this, does it mean I can now "drop" a mag to the other side of the wall and cross under to pick it up and then continue on without crossing back to the side I was originally on? I actually commented earlier that picking up a mag from the other side was okay as long as you went back to the side you started on. 

I get the intent of the rule, hence the commentary about adding opaque areas to the walls to limit aiming through/around.  I am going to interpret the rule as intended, bullets "can't" go through and the shooter "can't" go through unless to retrieve an object that is not a bullet that has crossed over to the other side but must return to the original side before continuing. Thus putting your fingers through at the start to begin in an advantageous location is not allowed.

It's all things that seem obvious but we play this game according the rules (or lack of thereof)

I think NROI was clear - if not "really solid" then it is not solid.

 

So you can go under a wall to get to the other side, throw stuff under it, put your fingers through them, in short anything but bullets can cross "not really solid" solid planes.  (Makes you wonder if you can stick a gun fully through a "not really solid" solid plane, and once the gun is on the other side, fire rounds at targets.)

 

Here is what I get from this NROI gem: if you don't want people going under walls, throwing stuff under them, etc.  make the walls go all the way to the ground.  

 

If you don't want people sticking fingers through the walls, make them "really solid".  

 

[RJH]

43 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

I think NROI was clear - if not "really solid" then it is not solid.

 

So you can go under a wall to get to the other side, throw stuff under it, put your fingers through them, in short anything but bullets can cross "not really solid" solid planes.  (Makes you wonder if you can stick a gun fully through a "not really solid" solid plane, and once the gun is on the other side, fire rounds at targets.)

 

Here is what I get from this NROI gem: if you don't want people going under walls, throwing stuff under them, etc.  make the walls go all the way to the ground.  

 

If you don't want people sticking fingers through the walls, make them "really solid".  

 

 

So, you're saying i was right way back at post number 2, well, you're welcome and have a nice day LOL

[IVC]

2 hours ago, Jollymon32 said:

 (Makes you wonder if you can stick a gun fully through a "not really solid" solid plane, and once the gun is on the other side, fire rounds at targets.)

2.2.3.4 says: "Shots cannot be fired though the barrier except at designated shooting ports or other designated openings," so you cannot stick your gun through the wall and shoot because you'd be firing outside the designated openings. 

 

Even if we (try to) play the "glossary definition game" which defines "shot" as: "A bullet which passes completely through the barrel of a firearm," it won't work. Bullet passing through the barrel defines that a shot has occurred, but if your gun is pushed through the wall, you have shot through the barrier outside the designated area and that is not allowed per 2.2.3.4.

 

You can try to argue that the next sentence, the one about "hits that result from full diameter shots [through hard cover]," implies that a hit resulting from sticking your arms through the wall should count because the bullet didn't pass through hard cover. Well, that sentence doesn't say that. It only specifies one type of shots that doesn't count, the full diameter hits. Other types of shots are not excluded by that sentence alone. Given that we have an explicit prohibition on shooting through non-designated openings, between the implied and stretched interpretation that the shot should count and the explicit prohibition on that type of shot, any arbitration would simply say "no way." 

[Jollymon32]

16 hours ago, IVC said:

2.2.3.4 says: "Shots cannot be fired though the barrier except at designated shooting ports or other designated openings," so you cannot stick your gun through the wall and shoot because you'd be firing outside the designated openings. 

 

Even if we (try to) play the "glossary definition game" which defines "shot" as: "A bullet which passes completely through the barrel of a firearm," it won't work. Bullet passing through the barrel defines that a shot has occurred, but if your gun is pushed through the wall, you have shot through the barrier outside the designated area and that is not allowed per 2.2.3.4.

 

You can try to argue that the next sentence, the one about "hits that result from full diameter shots [through hard cover]," implies that a hit resulting from sticking your arms through the wall should count because the bullet didn't pass through hard cover. Well, that sentence doesn't say that. It only specifies one type of shots that doesn't count, the full diameter hits. Other types of shots are not excluded by that sentence alone. Given that we have an explicit prohibition on shooting through non-designated openings, between the implied and stretched interpretation that the shot should count and the explicit prohibition on that type of shot, any arbitration would simply say "no way." 

IVC, the fact that we are having the discussion points to the lack of specificity that leads to interpretations (whether right or wrong) and the need for determination from the top of the organization to attempt to avoid match time arbitrations from range lawyers.

 

I maintain that if ‘solid’ meant ‘solid’ that many of these interpretations would be moot, albeit bringing up the mag or foot across the wall dilemma.  
 

On to the next ‘anomaly’...lol..

 

 

[SGT_Schultz]

Is this still going?

[PatJones]

I would have thought this covered it.

https://nroi.org/miscellaneous/we-need-a-ruleing/

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592