Ignorance Of The Law Is No Excuse

[bspradlin]

Moderator Edit: I'm going to break out the relevant questions in their own paragraph for emphasis. These are the questions to be addressed, not Taran's DQ.

Im new at this forum chat thing, so help me through it.

My name is Bobby Spradlin. I have been with Strayer Voigt Infinity since 1996 as a sponsored shooter. I have been teammates with some of the best shooters ever to walk this earth, but I have never met a nicer person than Taran Butler. I've never seen him mad. Everything that happens he just seems to shrug off. Taran stayed with me for the IDPA Nationals, and we squaded and shot together Thursday. I have shot IDPA on and off since the first Nationals, but I am not that familiar with all of the rules.

I was aware of the air gunning rule, but neither of us understood the rehearsing rule. I was called down on 2 different stages for looking at targets, but no one explained why. Neither of us knew about this, and we shoot IDPA pretty often. I think now we all know about the existance of this rule, but who defines the guidelines of someone looking at a course or rehearsing it. For my future reference, just what can you do? Can you stand in position to see the targets, or do just try to sneak a peek while we are taping. I was always told to do a walk through for safety reasons, just so you would know where to stand to engage targets, especially with the 180 rule in effect. Is there a happy medium we could all come to for safetys sake, and for the sense of fair play? There is not a person that shoots this game that doesnt try to have a stage memorized before the buzzer goes off. A man would be foolish not to.

Not to wear out my welcome, and on a closing note. Taran called me from L.A. when he got home. He found out he had neen DQd. He never raised his voice, he didnt even cuss, all he said was "I just hope I can shoot next year, I really like this sport". Thats the Taran you need to know. This man makes a big part of his living shooting and giving instruction. I feel the D.Q. call was wrong, and it does affect a mans integrity and reputation when something like this is tagged on you. I have requested a formal complaint from IDPA headquarters listing all offenses and infractions with S.O.s names attached.

I am friends with everyone on both sides of this issue, and hopefully we can all stay that way. I think the IDPA guys are great, and everyone makes mistakes.

Edited October 3, 2005 by Erik Warren

[RickB]

This should probably be in the IDPA rules forum?

[Genghis]

Bobby:

Welcome to the forum. The more you post, the more you contribute to the forum. So don't worry about wearing out your welcome.

I'm a newbie trying to shoot USPSA and IDPA each month. At USPSA matches you have to rehearse everything meticulously. At IDPA you can't airgun. But at each IDPA match I slip and find myself airgunning. So far the local guys haven't been too mean about this rule, though.

[shred]

Mod: Moved to IDPA Forum. Nik will no doubt be by soon to remind y'all to behave.

[bspradlin]

Mod: Moved to IDPA Forum.  Nik will no doubt be by soon to remind y'all to behave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will never forget my first IDPA Nationals. I was classified the week before, and received my new IDPA gun the day before I met Burkett in Tunica. My first stage I burned every target in the stage including the non threats. Ive never seen 2 S.O.s laugh so hard. I think I got a penalty on every stage. After the S.O.s all quit laughing at me, they started explaining the rules as I went. I had a blast, and they were all friendly to me in my Team SV uniform. Things havent changed much, and I still wonder if I did anything wrong after I shoot a stage. But I have met a lot of nice people, and they still help me when I ask questions.

Its hard to compete in multiple sports. Going from IPSC to IDPA to Steel Challenge to Sportsmans Challenge and everything in between. But its all fun, and I try to laugh along with them.

[standles]

Not to stir up controversy (yeah right)

But... While airgunning is a definate no-no reheasring a stage is a grey area I have noticed. That can mean anything from walking through the shooting positions and leaning your head around cover to know where to land your feet/knees to as you stated simply looking at the targets. If MD/RO don't want anyone to see the targets then MAKE IT A BLIND STAGE!

Most times as long as I haven't airgunned I can stand in my box and look at targets. Of course the interpretation of this rule is wide open. It depends on whether the RO is shooter friendly (and that doesn't neccesarily mean a sell out concerning IDPA goals) or a range NAZI out to make a name for himself. The range nazis come and go, the match attendance swells and abates.

My best suggestion is if you know a MD or RO crew that are predisposed to be antagonistic to shooters (not to mean let them get away with murder) then simply boycott those matches. They are plenty of other good matches to go to.

Heck one could even start thier own little blackball list

My personal gripe is a MD who when you take a disputed call to them for arbitration has the response of "Well I have known old doodah for a long time. He is very good and knows the rules better than me so I a going to have to go with his call."

Let the games begin

[RickB]

There really are no "guidelines", as to what constitutes a personal walkthrough. We'd always banned airgunning at our club matches, under the no-walk throughs rule, but some folks thought airgunning was OK, since it wasn't specifically addressed in the rule book (you were aware of the no airgunning rule, which just came out this Spring, but weren't aware of the "rehearsal rule", which has been around for years?). At our club, where we host a monthly club match, and where the last four state championships have been held, we cover personal walkthroughs during the shooters meeting; we decided the least we can do is tell the shooters how the rule will be interpreted. It certainly shouldn't be left up to individual SOs to determine for themselves. Essentially, you cannot mime the movements of a stage, while at that stage (our club's interpretation, arrived at with help from, and full approval of our Area Coordinator). If you want go to the safe area, going through the stage mentally, that's fine. But, don't stand at the front of the stage, moving back and forth, while alternating the sweeping-back of the covering garment, signifying when you will draw and/or reload. Also, if you are helping tape, don't linger at barricades and other pieces of cover (unless there are holes in them . . .). We've even warned, only half-jokingly, against shooters pointing at targets. I have never applied a procedural for airgunning or personal walkthroughs, preferring instead to just keep after shooters to not do it. I have warned a shooter, the same shooter, two or three times at a match, but have never dinged them, as I think the value of the "mime" walkthrough is limited, and by the time most shooters have watched, and/or taped for, two or three other shooters, they've seen everything, anyway. At a sanctioned match, a shooter should expect to get dinged, perhaps without warning.

[dirtypool40]

NOT IDPA bashing, trying to help:

IMHO-

Things need to be clearly defined, and after almost 8 years of IDPA they are still not.

There needs to be an attitude change putting the onus on the RO / course designer to do a better job of designing and explaining. We still have new and low level shooters designing courses and then getting mad / embarrassed when some GM burns it down different then they envisioned. Rather than saying "wow, nice run, I didn't see that." these folks are ENCOURAGED to punish shooters with proceedurals until they submit. There are too many gleeful smiles after they were able to spring a "shooter trap" on some guy who didn't ask "the right" questions or wasn't one of the regular group.

Any doubt or "ties" need to go to the shooter. Right now ANY doubt or ambiguity ends up with "well, I can hit him with this, and that, and do't forget one of those."

It is tough, but the only way competition is valid is if it is OBJECTIVE.

It is obviously a tough line to walk when you have folks used to shooting faster, further, and with greater freedom than the IDPA founders would like, but if you design a vague course, without clear mandates, not goals or intentions but black and white mandates about what you can and can't do, it's YOUR fault not the shooter's.

We had this happen yesterday; I set up a stage on a boardwalk / "Hogan's Alley" type bay. We all hugged the doors (like the tacti-guru's tell us NOT to) and shot targets in order 1,2,3,4. Then one guy stays away from the wall (like they say you are actually supposed to) and shoots the targets AS HE SEES THEM 1,2,4,3. There was an uproar about what a cheating gamer he was. This was NOT some national GM, but a regular garden variety "B" shooter, who honestly shot things as he saw them. It didn't change the time much, but they still wanted to hang the guy. I was embarrassed I had hugged the wall, and told him so.

Not you don't need to allow every shooter ten minutes to memorize every footstep. But if folks are going to be walking through pasting, resetting and running other shooters, then EVERYONE should get a chance to see where the targets are. Helping paste "that one secret array" or holding the timer so you can walk the course five times should not be advantages.

If you're gonna run it blind (and that's tough), run it blind. If the back of the stage is open, let folks walk it through so everyone has a FAIR chance at a good run. I look forward to the day in IDPA where I can have a good run and smile, thinking "wow, I burned that down" instead of looking over my shoulder waiting for the style judges thinking "jeez, I wonder who won't like that?"

I don't know what happened wih Taran. He is a top shooter in the big leagues of shooting sports. Showing up in a sponsor's shirt should not make him suspect. That being said we all want to win, and I'm just trying to offer suggestions on how to make that a fair possibility for all invloved.

[dirtypool40]

There really are no "guidelines", as to what constitutes a personal walkthrough....

At our club, where we host a monthly club match, and where the last four state championships have been held, we cover personal walkthroughs during the shooters meeting; we decided the least we can do is tell the shooters how the rule will be interpreted. It certainly shouldn't be left up to individual SOs to determine for themselves. 

At a sanctioned match, a shooter should expect to get dinged, perhaps without warning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're covering a lot of it right there. I wish all clubs had your "it's vague, let's clear it up attitude". That's the first step to being fair. Good job.

[RickB]

A lot of what you brought up, concerning poor course design, and SOs who seem to take pride in penalizing people, is also covered in the rule book. Stages should be designed so that they are not confusing, and the SO is supposed to facilitate the shooter's having a good time! Tie goes to the runner, and all that. SOs are not there to "catch" people screwing up; they should be doing their best to help the shooter understand what is expected of him, and then give him the benefit of the doubt (when doubt exists . . .) on scoring and other issues. One of the things that I've really come to enjoy about IDPA, is the non-adversarial relationship that can exist between shooter and SO; that is one of the ways in which IDPA (should) differ from IPSC, and it's spelled out in the rule book. I don't think of the IDPA SO as cop, so much as a lifeguard. Good course design alleviates a lot of the problems.

[dirtypool40]

RickB: I hope we get to shoot together some day, you have one of the best attitudes I have encountered. You need to be in control of an IDPA club somewhere, or IDPA in general.

I would guess though that you haven't shot much USPSA. Your lifeguard reference is exactly how USPSA RO's act. They WANT to see you go for it and burn a course down, try something faster or smoother or more advanced. As long as you are safe they will just say "Wow, nice run."

The worst example of the anti-shooter attitude I ever saw was the 04' State Match I worked. The MATCH DIRECTOR of all people was breifing us (the staff) as to how we were gonna teach those shooters, and catch them at this, and how we'd stop that and if you suspected this then drop the FTDR on them. This rant went on BEFORE the match even started!!! I just stood in the back shaking my head. At match I have run I always started the staff meeting with something like "We have a lot of folks who spent time and money to come to our party. They are our guests, please make sure they have fun. All ties go to the runner."

I ran the dark house, a blind stage, and awarded a total of ONE penalty the entire match, because the guy called it on himself as I handed him a mag he had discarded. I never shot for score but I walked the course several times and made the walkthrough clear and simple; you could shoot moving or from cover, but not standing still in the open.

Sevigny, Garcia, Goloski, Gambrell and others were there, but the fastest run still went to a local "expert". The "supers" were clearly nervous after the attitude that welcomed them and started asking all kinds of "Mother May I?" questions. I stopped them with "relax, I'm an IPSC RO, the course makes sense."

I stopped the lynch mob that went after the Venazuelans, and kept a blind, dark house from ever backing up. I didn't have ONE complaint about any tricks, or traps although I did have folks shoot every single round on them at an all paper, all open target, 14 round course. (up to 31 in one case if I recall)

The moral is you can run great shooters through any course reguardless of your skill or experience level. You just need to accept that top level shooters may do things a little differently than you.

The anti-shooter mindset I expereinced at the staff meeting turned me off to IDPA for a while. Until yesterday, that's the last time I was at IDPA for obvious reasons.

Edited October 3, 2005 by dirtypool40

[Mayonaise]

Bobby, I hate to point out your contradictions but it helps make my point:

  I have shot IDPA on and off since the first Nationals, but I am not that familiar with all of the rules.....................I was called down on 2 different stages for looking at targets, but no one explained why. Neither of us knew about this, and we shoot IDPA pretty often.

Read the rule book guys. Not just a once over. Read it. Read it a few times. It's not rocket science. Never has been. 99% of the procedurals earned, the shooter KNOWS what he did if he has READ the book.

Procedurals, FTDR's and DQ's aren't GIVEN, they are EARNED.

I have yet to meet an SO, CSO, RO, RM or MD that felt good about penalizing any shooter.

Learn and play by the rules for the game or sport and you won't have a problem.

Me? I'm lucky to remember one set of rules. That's one reason I don't switch over a lot. Plus the chain attached to the ball is only so long.

Edited October 3, 2005 by Mayonaise

[Genghis]

FAA examiners who administer checkrides to pilots have a good way of putting this. You either make the standard for the rating or you do not. It's your performance rather than the examiner's attitude that determines whether you get the rating or bust the checkride.

Of course the standards for a checkride are pretty clear - for instance, a person taking the Private Pilot checkride has to keep his airspeed within 10 knots of the target speed, altitude within 100', and heading within 10 degrees. If you don't make the standard, don't blame the examiner.

Some of the IDPA rules are this clear, but some are not. If there's any discretion, then it's not fair to make the shooter guess the interpretation then slam him after the fact if he chooses wrong.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Welcome to the forum. I have several comments but will start with the section of the rules you asked about.

Airgunning: As you know not allowed. I will give a warning and then a Procedural for a repeated offense. That said, I have never given a procedural for it.

C 4. Individual rehearsals of a CoF are not permitted.

C 5. Airgunning and/or sight pictures are not permitted. (See glossary for definitions.)

It is NOT Rehearsals that are not allowed, it is Individual rehearsals

Time to test the course is during the stage walk through if there is one. If you don't look at the stage and the targets, how will you know if you have questions? How do I do it? I put my hands in my pockets and walk through the course in the parade and see what I can see. If anyone was to give me a Procedural, I would argue it as high as I need to go.

The Individual part comes into play when you have a shooter that while everyone is scoreing, taping and brassing, he/she has to do their own walk through. That is a definate violation of the rules. Another would be finding someone on the course of fire during a break (lunch etc) walking the stage. Not allowed in IDPA.

As to the other comments given so far as to not hoelping and trying to penalize shooters, I think that is a local club thing that I have not really seen.

Only one match I shoot regularly has such a person. He can always give a PE for something. He also gets his share when he shoots. Is he right? I don't know.

My idea is this is a trophy sport. I don't want a trophy even if I am first. They collect dust. I want to have a good time. I want you to say you enjoyed shooting my stage. If you burn your way through within the rules, I will tell you you had a nice run. If you are new to the game and I see something you need to correct, I will ask if you mind me telling you. (Some people mind)

If I can help a new shooter, an infirmed shooter, a shooter that is uneasy, I will do it. If you have a squib load, I have a rod. If you forget your ears, I have spare plugs. If you break your glasses, I have a spare you can borrow to complete the match. This is supposed to be FUN

If it is not, you will not see me there anymore. Life is too short.

Best regards,

[Merlin Orr]

Welcome to the forum.  I have several comments but will start with the section of the rules you asked about.

Airgunning: As you know not allowed.  I will give a warning and then a Procedural for a repeated offense.  That said, I have never given a procedural for it.

C 4.  Individual rehearsals of a CoF are not permitted.

C 5.  Airgunning and/or sight pictures are not permitted.  (See glossary for definitions.)

It is NOT Rehearsals that are not allowed, it is Individual rehearsals

Time to test the course is during the stage walk through if there is one. If you don't look at the stage and the targets, how will you know if you have questions? How do I do it? I put my hands in my pockets and walk through the course in the parade and see what I can see. If anyone was to give me a Procedural, I would argue it as high as I need to go.

The Individual part comes into play when you have a shooter that while everyone is scoreing, taping and brassing, he/she has to do their own walk through. That is a definate violation of the rules. Another would be finding someone on the course of fire during a break (lunch etc) walking the stage. Not allowed in IDPA.

As to the other comments given so far as to not hoelping and trying to penalize shooters, I think that is a local club thing that I have not really seen.

Only one match I shoot regularly has such a person. He can always give a PE for something. He also gets his share when he shoots. Is he right? I don't know.

My idea is this is a trophy sport. I don't want a trophy even if I am first. They collect dust. I want to have a good time. I want you to say you enjoyed shooting my stage. If you burn your way through within the rules, I will tell you you had a nice run. If you are new to the game and I see something you need to correct, I will ask if you mind me telling you. (Some people mind)

If I can help a new shooter, an infirmed shooter, a shooter that is uneasy, I will do it. If you have a squib load, I have a rod. If you forget your ears, I have spare plugs. If you break your glasses, I have a spare you can borrow to complete the match. This is supposed to be FUN

If it is not, you will not see me there anymore. Life is too short.

Best regards,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes!

[down0]

NOT IDPA bashing, trying to help:

IMHO-

There needs to be an attitude change putting the onus on the RO / course designer to do a better job of designing and explaining. We still have new and low level shooters designing courses and then getting mad / embarrassed when some GM burns it down different then they envisioned. Rather than saying "wow, nice run, I didn't see that." these folks are ENCOURAGED to punish shooters with proceedurals until they submit. There are too many gleeful smiles after they were able to spring a "shooter trap" on some guy who didn't ask "the right" questions or wasn't one of the regular group.

With all due respect, in the many matches I've SO'ed, I've never heard or seen anyone "encouraged" to give someone a procedural. Most SO's I know feel like cr*p when they have to give someone a procedural, and I've never seen a "gleeful smile" when a procedural's been given.

[f250sd]

I feel that IDPA is becoming very punitive in its rule enforcement. I don't know if this is coming down from headquarters, or if it is just the attitude of some MD's and SO's that feel they are there to look for making calls on shooters. MD's and SOI's should choose who they make SO's carefully, especially at major matches.

A call against someone in a major match sould be defenate, plain black and white, not ones interpretation or opinion, and not to "take back our sport" mentallity. Remember we're not playing for money, or even for prizes.

I wish IDPA headquarters would come out with a complete rulebook that gives definate means of the broad rules, as well as update interpretations on their web page. I think this would solve a whole lot.

Brad V

[johnhurd]

and by the time most shooters have watched, and/or taped for, two or three other shooters, they've seen everything, anyway. At a sanctioned match, a shooter should expect to get dinged, perhaps without warning.

So then everyone after the 1st 2-3 have an advantage????

[f250sd]

and by the time most shooters have watched, and/or taped for, two or three other shooters, they've seen everything, anyway. At a sanctioned match, a shooter should expect to get dinged, perhaps without warning.

So then everyone after the 1st 2-3 have an advantage????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is why shooters sould be allowed a quick walk through while they are on deck. This is the only way to make a level playing field that IDPA wants. Otherwise, If one sets up or help sets up a stage they have an advantage over someone that can't even look at the target angles. One that S.O.'s even a single shooter, minimal or not, also has an advantage.

This issue is not going to go away, and with recent events, it will get worse. This needs to be addressed. Soon.

Brad V

[dirtypool40]

down0 - With all due respect, in the many matches I've SO'ed, I've never heard or seen anyone "encouraged" to give someone a procedural. Most SO's I know feel like cr*p when they have to give someone a procedural, and I've never seen a "gleeful smile" when a procedural's been given.

And that's the attitude I was applauding from RickB , but we've all had our own experiences that's obvious. I didn't make this stuff up, honest.

The "gotcha giggling" was an SO at the 03 State Match. It happened to more than just me, because I walked up on a conversation about it after it happened to me. Before anyone asks, the conversation was about the SO, not the blind set up.

The scenario was pretty simple. You started in a room facing a sliding door. At the signal the door slid open and you moved to cover and "pied" the door. Just that door. When you were out of threats unload and show clear.

<edited> I missed a target.

The "Anti Shooter SO briefing" was the 04 State match, and there were plenty of witnesses to that. I will not work or shoot another match where that attitude is encouraged. <= edited to sound less like a personal attack. Yes, it's a bad example. But that bad example influenced the tone of the whole match.

As far as "encouraging someone to give a proceedural" it happens all the time at the local club here. Did then and still does as of yesterday. The style judges stand up after the run and critique it out loud, if the shooter needs to learn who's boss, like they are brand new or a known and therefore suspect shooter from another sport.

Even if you condone beating on IPSC gamers, why would you teach new shooters to be so negative and cutthroat?

Again, just my $.02

Edited October 4, 2005 by dirtypool40

[firewalker]

Ok im not sure why this thread is still alive It seems that some shooters have a hard time with what they precieve as bad SOs. If we were at fault then i hope we do better next time. We take the time to train and certify, then we work a match some times for match fee paid. Its personal rewards are tremendous, we try to be competators, then we attempt to insure everyone has a safe match, and that they follow the rules. From the last 2 nationals i worked i saw 0 PEs given, All were EARNED.

Now that i understand that the SO dosent always give the shooter a fair shake, I will ask a straight foward question and give example with out names.

I shot last year at a major match badlands, I was squadded with a very rude shooter, Every stage he got up in front so no other shooters could see the stage,,,he air gunned every stage in front of SOs. he was generally an obnoxious shooter. OK as my question, do i as a competator and SO...(not working this match) have to tollerate this behavior? I complained to the match director and nothing resulted. the end result for me is i will never squad with this shooter again, I will ask to be resquadded.

For all the shooters that get unjustly accused i apoligise. But believe me there are some that do deserve the PE.

Frederick Haring

Edited October 4, 2005 by firewalker

[Mayonaise]

I feel that IDPA is becoming very punitive in its rule enforcement.  I don't know if this is coming down from headquarters, or if it is just the attitude of some MD's and SO's that feel they are there to look for making calls on shooters.  MD's and SOI's should choose who they make SO's carefully, especially at major matches.

    A call against someone in a major match sould be defenate, plain black and white, not ones interpretation or opinion, and not to "take back our sport" mentallity.  Remember we're not playing for money, or even for prizes.

    I wish IDPA headquarters would come out with a complete rulebook that gives definate means of the broad rules,  as well as update interpretations on their web page.  I think this would solve a whole lot.

Brad V

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Brad,

Please give examples. Making broad statements like this isn't constructive without facts.

Mark

[Nik Habicht]

Seems like the original questions were answered. Anyone else want to contribute to those? If not, then we're pretty close to finishing this one off........

[Flexmoney]

I can give a quick example of something that is being seen as punitive and subjective...at least in attitude.

This is pure hearsay...coming from me...but, it is one of the stories going around... Take it for what it's worth.

There was a bay with more than one stage in it. A shooter was going down range during reset...and looked over at the stage next door. He was told not to look over there. Then, he was questioned as to if he was even down range taping targets (he showed that he, did indeed, have pasters).

[Flexmoney]

Opps. Sorry Nik. You posted while I was off doing other things. Didn't see your post.

You are right, we need to talk of specific things that we can learn from...and stay away from the bashing.