Frame material

[cybrosh]

Hi everyone,

I've read a lot about frames at the forums. And from what I understand :

Aluminum isn't enough, it would wear out a lot faster than the other metals-if that happens, accurails would help.

Stainless steel for competition is what most of you said, you'd like to get. You put your trust in it.

But what about Carbon Steel and Titanium? are they more durable than stainless steel? they are lighter, but are they worth the extra $? I have no doubt that internal parts, made out of titanium are a must, but what about frames?

I'm not getting into types of stainless steel(Rockwell 4XXX), or the finishes of slides - I simply have no knowledge in anything mentioned above, and seek your humble guidance

I want to settle this once and for all.

[John Dunn]

I have no doubt that internal parts, made out of titanium are a must

I'm not aware of any titanium parts on my competition pistols. Maybe a hammer strut. It would help if you would tell us what type of gun (1911?) and what it is for. A Caspian titanium frame might be the heat for carry, but I'd skip it for a competition gun.

[Carlos]

Before I raced handguns, I raced motorcycles and we used and expiramented with Titanium alloys extensively. In general, Ti is most suitable for static applications where it will not contact moving parts of the machine or where that contact is kept to a minimum. Racing benefitted from reduced unsprung weight using Ti bolts and other parts associated with the front & rear wheels.

In a pistol, Ti should best be used (in my opinion) for parts like compensators that really just sit there. Ti has been used in frames (The Scandium frames are aluminum/Ti/Scandium alloy), but I believe that it is always coated or anodized to prevent it from interacting with other metals (this was the problem we encountered; Ti would "weld" itself to dissimilar metals unless we used nickle based anti-sieze). There is some benefit to be had in reduced lock time with Ti parts and in the case of a hammer strut, there is minimal moving contact with other parts.

[Alan Meek]

I have a Caspian Ti Framed open gun. with a Ti Grip safety and Compensator. The frame has been acc-u-railed so the slide is working steel to steel. SV has steel inserts in their Ti frame. I built mine to be a test to see how durable it will be in the long run. Ti does not hold up to a rubbing of metal to metal.

I will post additional info after Nov.

Alan

[cybrosh]

THanks guys,

I'm referring to competition and match pistols, S_I 2011, HI-Cap frames/'bodies'/grips like Caspian and Para.

As for small parts, I've seen an open gun that is owned by one of the world's top shooters. Someone told me most of his parts are ti - so I don't really know. SVI has the tri-glide system which is made from titanium, I've seen other internals made from ti.

I've been told ti and tung' parts are the best, since they would last a great deal of time unlike their counterparts. Maybe they Correct me if I'm wrong, that's why I'm asking - I'm here to learn. I guess, according to what I've read from Carlos, Alan and JOhn that these parts have to be coated.

Alan - Exactly what I wanted to know.

[.40AET]

I've been told ti and tung' parts are the best, since they would last a great deal of time unlike their counterparts

I don't think that is quite true. The tungsten and Ti parts serve a specific need more so than the fact that they llast longer. One thing that you need to remember, the top shooters in the world have lots of spare parts so when one of the chi chi Ti parts break, they can just drop in another, or change to the backup gun.

Tungsen is very heavy compared to steel. It's often used in Limited guns to dampen the effects of recoil. Tungsten magwells and guiderods are the most common. However, more people report broken tungsten guide rods than steel.

Titanium is very light compared to steel. Triggers, hammer struts, mainspring caps, and firing pins are most common. These Ti parts reduce the reciprocating weight of the moving parts. (Both in Open and Limited guns) Titanium comps have become popular to reduce the weight at the end of the gun.

Are you looking to build a Limited gun or Open? Both are looked at differently when selecting parts for weight.

Good luck

[Carlos]

Cybosh wrote: "SVI has the tri-glide system which is made from titanium, I've seen other internals made from ti."

Not entirely correct. The center leaf of the TriGlide spring features a hardened ball bearing that is made of some other metal (not Ti) while the rest of the spring IS Ti. The critical contact surface is thus not Ti. The TriGlide trigger bow can be made of Ti, but it to features a ball bearing that is not Ti. The rest of the bow primarily bears against the plastic grip frame where there are no gauling issues. The disconnector is steel.

It is difficult to generalize about Ti and its uses in handguns. Thus, it is not possible to state "Ti is the best material period" - without knowing the exact application, coating, alloy, etc. As AET states, it is possible to use it to reduce lock time and as Major 9 caspian has discovered, it can yield a lighter frame - though there are always trade offs (cost, durability, reliability of ignition, etc).

BTW, Cybosh: happy new year!

Regards,

C.

[.40AET]

The center leaf of the TriGlide spring features a hardened ball bearing that is made of some other metal (not Ti) while the rest of the spring IS Ti

That's the problem. Same little ball on the back of the Ti trigger bow. The ball chews a hole on the sear and the spring ball chews a notch in the disconnector. The trigger can be ordered without the triglide feature. The sear spring cannot. It's a neat idea that doesn't work. My .02

[Bob Hostetter]

Titanium does not wear very well when in contact with other metals. I would limit it's usage to things like hammer struts and comp's in a competition gun unless you are prepared to pay for the shortened service life............

[cybrosh]

Hi people, I truly appreciate the feedback and information - I've had a discussion with some friends on titanium frames(Sphinx-CZ based and Taurus titanium slide finishes). Pro's and Con's of Ti' in general, and internal parts I myself like to feel a bit of weight when holding a gun(and not Austrian Plastic, if you know what I mean)and after reading everything that was written here, I doubt if my next gun is going to have a ti frame - I'm not saying it's bad, but I think I prefer stainless steel.

[Harmon]

buy carbon steel, get it the way you want it and have it chromed.

2 years ago i built a stainless single stack and fitted the frame and slide too tight. the fit didnt last long as the slide and frame began to gall up...even with insane amounts of oil

hardchrome on carbon is the way to go

Harmon

[Chuck Anderson]

+1 for the Carbon/Hard Chrome option. I have an open gun from SV with a stainless frame/slide. Gun started life pretty tight. Now its the loosest gun I have after about 6K rounds.

[Jasonub]

the only titianum in my gun is the strut, mainspring cap, and tri glide sear spring.

[spook]

So what can you do if you want real good rust prevention? Whatever I touch rusts. The only thing that doesn't rust is my glock and that is probably because of the tenifer.

I know chrome on carbon steel is nice, but it does rust. Any other options? I was thinking along the lines of TiN-ed SS. Or maybe there's a company that tenifers carbon steel parts?

[MoNsTeR]

Electroless nickel isn't as nice as chrome in all other dimensions, but it does provide several times the corrosion protection. Also, Robar NP3.

[Harmon]

i think you can hardchrome over stainless..

send forum member phil terry a PM and see what he thinks about it...he knows a thing or two about metal.

to get a chrome job to be rust proof, i believe you have to put a strike of copper over the carbon steel, then chrome.

[spook]

Cool! Thanks for the info guys!

[Skywalker]

Whatever I touch rusts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Too bad, and I thought you had Mida's touch...

The only thing that doesn't rust is my glock and that is probably because of the tenifer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope.

It's because it's ugly, and can't get any uglier...

[GuildSF4]

But what about Carbon Steel and Titanium? are they more durable than stainless steel? they are lighter, but are they worth the extra $?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Carbon steel weighs about the same as stainless, carbon steel is generally harder and more wear resistant than stainless steels are, stainless steel can gall (read as micro-welding between the parts, a very bad thing), stainless steel is generally tougher (less likely to crack/ fracture). Most common for frames and slides is some type of carbon steel.

Others have discussed titainum usage.

[Radical Precision Designs]

For quite a while now I have been using T & A Refinishing in Hialeah, Florida for most of my finishing and re-finishing needs. The owner Tom Hartill has over thirty years experience doing his job of bluing and hard chrome plating.

He has had great success in hard chrome plating aluminum, titanium and stainless steel.

While some may argue the possibility of molecular embrittlement when plating aluminum or titanium, the plating done by Tom does not suffer this malady. Tom briefly "passivates" the metal with a small amount of (propietary) phosphate which allows the hard chrome to really "bite" into the soft metal, completely eliminating flaking or blistering due to repeated temperature changes. Believe me, it works.

The biggest problem with soft metals such as aluminum and titanium is accelerated wear, galling and scratching. Hard chrome resolves that problem usually.

I have a few customers that insist on stainless guns, but also request they be hard chrome plated to increase their wear and scratch abilities. Personally I like chroming the frames and leaving the slides stainless "au naturel", since it allows me to really "scrub" them now and then with a "scotch-brite" pad, making them instantly like new again, and again, and again as needed for no additional re-finishing costs.