Speeding Up Your Shot Call..how To?

[Paladin]

Hi All:

Shot a club match yesterday and on a speed stage had a mike. Thing is, I saw the mike on my shot call but by that time I was already on the next target.. I did not make up the shot as the speed stage had 12 targets close together and I did not remember the specific target and didn't want to go searching.

Later I thought to myself if their is a better way to call your shots on such close targets or if I shouldn't be 'calling shots' at all, but relying more on my index for such stages.. Inputs???

[Loves2Shoot]

It doesn't take any more time to call your shots, so call them, especially on the close targets. Those are free points.

[Paladin]

the shot was called...but by that time the eye/gun is on its way to the next target.. their is a lag between see sights lift (pure observation) and call the shot (feedback to you).

Yes, I can always slow down but you push the envelope sometime to take yourself to the next level..I will run some stages this coming weekend using a number of visual variations (or focus type) and see what happens.. thanks..

[Jake Di Vita]

You should never have to be pushing the envelope in a match.

[Paladin]

Agree.. this one was a club match however..as long as not getting to the unsafe zone, will push..

[Jon Merricks]

I would say follow through. See a complete left and return on every shot. When I take a shot off a lift only I will have problems making up the shot or having por points. But when in control and SEEing a complete shot I will be more accurate and have better times. (there will also be less shots to make up).

[shred]

I may be screwing up the newer shooters with this, so y'all should probably just skip this next paragraph, but..

I started noticing on fast steel challenge stages that I would call shots somewhat after I'd fired them. Say Roundabout.. in the 2.4 second zone off about a 1.2 draw, I know I've hit all the plates, but I don't actually know-for-sure I've hit #3 (in a 1-2-3-4-S order) until about the time I'm tapping #4 and going for the stop plate. Likewise for #2. My suspicion is that's around when the ding gets through my brain. Anybody else notice this? It only happens for me on very fast stages I've practiced a lot, and it bothered me until I learned I had to let go and just let myself shoot (which, of course I didn't do at the SC on Roundabout, 'cause I didn't trust myself to do in the big match what I'd done dozens of times in practice.. )

Newbies can join back in now.

After a while you should become automatic in shot-calling such that a miss or poor shot is made up automatically. That'll take some practice, but is totally worth it in the mass-o-targets situation.

[Loves2Shoot]

Agree.. this one was a club match however..as long as not getting to the unsafe zone, will push..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pushing you seeing might be better than pushing your shooting.

I spent many a year pushing my shooting, it wasn't nearly as effective for me as workin' on the seeing part.

[j1b]

Shooting close targets, inside of 4 yards, is a bit of an art in itself. Calling shots is more difficult because frankly you generally don't pay as much attention to the sights. Rightfully so I might add. Practice the close stuff and you'll learn how indexing can insure that you get your points without hurting speed.

I'm going to disagree with Jake on pushing. If you want to improve you push. If you want to win, you push. Nobody has ever won a national title by drafting. Make sure you need to see what you need to see, but make sure you're pushing YOUR envelop in order to improve.

J

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm gonna have to disagree as well....I don't think anybody has won a national title by pushing. By definition if you push you are at the limit of your ability....unless you get lucky you are not going to cruise at the very limit of your ability through a national championship (or even a normal match).

You push in practice....you don't go to a match and push. When you push, you try. When you try, you crash. When you crash, you lose.

If you want to win, you get your performance to the point where you don't have to push.

Repeatability is what wins matches....if you can't do it 10 times in a row on demand....you should not be trying it in a match.

[Jake Di Vita]

Also I'd like to add that just because you are shooting with your index does not mean you can't call your shots. No one ever said you have to see your sights on every shot....you just have to know where they were.

[mcoliver]

Inside of 5 yards, I call my shots using the holes on the targets.

[j1b]

Also I'd like to add that just because you are shooting with your index does not mean you can't call your shots. No one ever said you have to see your sights on every shot....you just have to know where they were.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uuuuummmm . . . that's why I recommended indexing

J

[Paladin]

This stage began with running from one box to another box from where we engaged the targets. My visual focus plan was a hard target focus but looking through the sights.. I am figuring that mike occured because at that point my visual focus got out of whack and I may have been changing focus from target to sight or vice versa.. also because I didn't take the time to refine my index on entering the box I did not have the index as a backup...

In retrospect I am thinking that rather than worry about speeding up that shot call (to recover from a miss) I should speed up my index setup..kinda like how TJ does it..and not have a miss for the blaze stage..

[benos]

Inside of 5 yards, I call my shots using the holes on the targets.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's slower than reading the gun.

Because it takes time for your eye to find the hole.

Looking for the holes is natural and easy to do. But I proved it to myself, time and time again, that you'll advance to the next shot quicker if you know where the bullet went before it arrives.

be

[Flexmoney]

I agree with Brian (once again, go figure...).

It seems so easy to just hose away at those close targets. Blasting ought to be fast...and accurate enough. But...

In practice, I am so much less tense (tension kills speed) when I can call the shot and I am reading what is going on with the gun.

Now, I think an aware shooter can call the shot by reading their index and such...they might not need a rock solid sight focus. But, reading the sights doesn't seem to take much time. The sights are there, your eyes are fast enough, and the sights give very accurate feedback.

I like having that level of feedback.

Any time lost reading the sights is likely gained back by allowing your body to move on...

[XRe]

I started noticing on fast steel challenge stages that I would call shots somewhat after I'd fired them.  ...  My suspicion is that's around when the ding gets through my brain.  Anybody else notice this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Recently, I've noticed this on fast up-close hosing arrays - those conducive to Type 1-2 focus. I've always recalled seeing what I need to see on those targets, but it's always somewhat later - in past tense. I've made up shots on those types of arrays, too, and not realized that I'd called a miss until after I made up the shot and had moved on.

I've always figured this was a great example of how slow the conscious mind acts vs. the subconscious mind, and why it's important to let the subconscious do the important stuff. I experience it as the "watching myself shoot" phenomenon. It's pretty cool

[Flyin40]

Paladin,

I just went through this very thing. Check out this thread Here

This is one of those things that everyone can tell you what to do or how to do it but you have to figure this one out for yourself. Couple of things that was recommended to me, first bench shooting. Get to know what your sights look like off a bench. Secondly just worrying about what your seeing.

You can shoot as fast as you can or as slow as you can stand it but just worry about the sights. Really try to see the sights. I have a huge problem with visual patience, something I really knew nothing about until I started the above thread. If your focused on speed you won't see the entire sight picture, you'll rush to get to the next target. You won't see how the shot finished. You'll be moving to the next target and guess what, your gun will follow. That little bit of movement will pull your gun off enough to miss. Also you can see the sight on the target and pull the trigger but by the time gun goes off your eyes are already gone. This is what I really struggled with. I would see the dot on the target but I didn't wait around long enough to make sure it stayed on target until the shot broke. Thats where that (this is exactly what I went through) "the shot was called...but by that time the eye/gun is on its way to the next target.. their is a lag between see sights lift (pure observation) and call the shot (feedback to you). What I would get in my mind was I called the shot and pulled the trigger, I knew that dot was on target. I thought this was calling the shot. It wasn't. I would be on the next target thinking to myself, Man did I just have miss or was it a hit. This process takes a long time to work. You have to think about it. Its like looking at a letter on the wall. If you fly by it you think that it might be the letter A, maybe, but if you fly by it but focus right on it you'll know exactly what letter it was.

I'm like you, I push myself at matches. Due to family( 2 girls under 2) and work I can't really live fire practice. It really hurt me this yr so I have to use matches for practice. Nothing wrong with it at all as long as your ok with the outcome. Just understand your going to have some bad stages doing it that way. I just did it at Area 5. Biggest match I have ever shot. I haven't really shot on the move, moving fast that is. If it could be shot moving, I shot it moving. I had more fun at that match than all the matches combined this yr. I learned more about my shooting at that match than I have learned in the last 3 months. It was well worth it.

When shooting fast you want to get to the next target. You focus on speed and lose vision. When it finally hit me I realized though it seems like its taking forever to see the sight and call the shot I realized its an extremely fast process. Now its a matter of trusting that process and the mental discpline to make it happen every shot.

Try this, you sound like you want to shoot fast while trying how to learn to call your shots. Physically move fast but mentally focus on seeing. Just shoot without thinking about it. You know how to move and pull the trigger without thinking about it, just do that. Just try to see as your doing it. Don't tell yourself speed, go fast or anything. You already know how to do that.

Put your focus on your sights as your doing those things.

After going through this whole process of learning how to call shots I can see how bench shooting as a tool to learn how to call your shots can be invaulable.

I would recommend this before anything. You read your sights the same whether going fast or slow for a single shot. To call your shot you have to know exactly where your sights are at the instant your pulling the trigger and the shot goes off. Bench shooting can accomplish this the same as shooting at matches or practice.

I think this is one of those life long learning processes. Theres not a shooter around who has this mastered.

I tried to put it in terms of how I finally understood it. All those times Flex was trying to beat it in my head finally paid off.

Hope it helps

Flyin40

[Flyin40]

Shooting close targets, inside of 4 yards, is a bit of an art in itself. Calling shots is more difficult because frankly you generally don't pay as much attention to the sights. Rightfully so I might add. Practice the close stuff and you'll learn how indexing can insure that you get your points without hurting speed.

I'm going to disagree with Jake on pushing. If you want to improve you push. If you want to win, you push. Nobody has ever won a national title by drafting. Make sure you need to see what you need to see, but make sure you're pushing YOUR envelop in order to improve.

J

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with this. Its proved over and over again and again in sports. Those who have already had alot of experience in sports already know this, those who just starting to complete will have to learn this, I learned the hard way. Were not just talking shooting here, sports period. Take two people one who has who has pushed themselves in a "competition" and one who hasn't. It comes down to the last "stage" for the win. The first guy gets up and just smoked it. To win the "match" you would have to perform at level beyond your own ability. You can't win unless you do. If you have never prepared yourself for this what do you think the outcome will be. You can't simulate this type of pressure in practice.

The second guy if he has never prepared for it will get "lucky" 1 out of ten times. The same guy if he prepared for it might be able to do it 5 or 6 times. I don't call that luck.

Most of the time constistency will win, not always, if you tell yourself otherwise your just fooling yourself. You have to be prepared for whatever comes your way. Those most prepared will most likely prevail.

Flyin40

Edited October 4, 2005 by Flyin40

[Jake Di Vita]

Perform at a level beyond your ability???

You can't perform at a level beyond your ability....that's why it is called your ability. You will never miraculously get faster the day of a match. It just won't happen. Pushing during the match to beat someone who's s skill is more developed than you is really not a good idea.

Put it this way.....how many M's or GM's do you see beating TGO? I guarantee a lot of people think the same way and push during matches. If that was the way to do it, why aren't their more upsets.

You cannot go above and beyond your ability....if you think you can you are fooling yourself into "look cool mode".

(and if someone can do it 5 or 6 times it isn't luck.....it is his ability.)

I notice you saying you have a huge problem with visual patience, then I see sentences saying "beyond your ability" and "I push myself at matches." You ever think that happens because you might be going into matches with the wrong goal in the first place?

[Paladin]

Range feedback..

Okay went to the range on Sunday and setup the speed shoot stage.

1st run: Here I locked on the first target and then use index to sweep the other targets.. Actually felt uncomfortable as I felt that visual input was not the best..shot the stage dropping 2 points.

2nd/3rd run: Using a hard target focus and sight look through I called the shot at the top of the sight lift and started to move then..Then I noticed something strange..after about the 6th target you start to get a throw-off in where the gun is pointed at the target, it is almost like the errors in sight alignment are adding up until it reaches this level where the error is now material to really throw you off..

I dropped a point but corrected this error for the next target.. Repeated and noted the same thing only now because I am more conscious of it, I started to check sight alignment so I ran it slower..

Brian, can you comment/recall the error magnification happening to you or others??

4th run: Using a hard target focus and sight look through I called the shot when the sight is on its way back down.. this gave me a little extra time to get the feedback and I felt more confident when moving to the next target.. Quoting Flex "Any time lost reading the sights is likely gained back by allowing your body to move on..." . For this one I dropped no points.. The index gave the fastest time this gave the highest hit factor.

Okay I will have to experiment some more. I see this as especially important given the increase in blaze stages in matches..My learning from this is that VISUAL TIMING is a critical factor in blazing and staying in control..because you can still see all you need to see but at what stage of the cycle you are picking this up is important..

Also because intermediate targets and the focus type used you tend to feel almost like the gun is shooting itself but for the blaze stage, your attention has to be peaked (guess it can be likened to driving at 50mph vs. 100 mph.)

For my speed shoot training I am going to increase the number of targets I shoot from an average of 6 to 14 on some of the practice runs. This is to develop greater stamina on the visual timing control..

thanks all..

[LPatterson]

Paladin, increasing the number of targets may not be the way to go since in a match the maximum from 1 position is 8 rounds. Unless you set up a 2nd & 3rd box to shoot from, you are training for something you will never see. Or step out of the box with both feet & then step back in.

I keep seeing the statement that you fight the way you train so maybe the training should reflect how we can actually play.

[Flyin40]

Perform at a level beyond your ability???

You can't perform at a level beyond your ability....that's why it is called your ability. You will never miraculously get faster the day of a match. It just won't happen. Pushing during the match to beat someone who's s skill is more developed than you is really not a good idea.

I notice you saying you have a huge problem with visual patience, then I see sentences saying "beyond your ability" and "I push myself at matches." You ever think that happens because you might be going into matches with the wrong goal in the first place?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Performing beyond you abitily is done everyday in sports. This isn't just a shooting thing. It can be done, it is done and it will continue to be done. If you telling yourself you can't then you never will. Its that simple. I'm surprised to hear you say it can't be done.

I learned very early that this was true. This happened to me for the first time at an International College Track and Field meet in London, England. I have did it many times since. I have did it several times this yr shooting. You have to mentally prepared for it, as soon as you try to make it happen your done. Thats where pushing yourself in matches comes into play.

I remember you saying at the Ohio match you never competed in high school or anything until you started shooting. Noone has no doubt you want to win nationals, theres alot of people that can teach you alot about competing, not physically shooting but I'm talking about how to compete. You should try to learn everything you can. It can only make you better.

My goals have been right on. I'm hot on the heels of my M card. More importantly my field courses reflect my abitily as much as the classifiers.

Back to topic

Flyin40

[Flyin40]

Indexing is a funny thing. All you hear is see the sights, see the sights. Its kind of like shooting a bow instinctively. You base your sight picture not on sights but on the relationship of the bow and arrow to the targets. You can subconsiously learn this without even realizing it when working on indexing. The difference between indexing a bow compared to a gun is that your sight picture will be different with a gun. If your moving and shooting you will never have that stable non moving platform. I guess the key would knowing your index while standing, moving et etc to cover the different areas of shooting.

Great topic.

Flyin40

[XRe]

In my experience, you're both right and you're both wrong

We practice to push our maximal performance envelope further - our 100% mark, if you will. This also has the effect of pushing up the optimal performance level - sometimes referred to as the 80-90% level - and it's at this level that everything generally works most efficiently. You'd *like* to be able to win at your optimal level, because you're not expending a lot of effort to be there, and it's basically your comfort zone.

In some cases, you will plan for and perform at a maximum level for a specific match, or perhaps stage. This is something about what Flyin40 is getting at - you can perform to the maximum performance level on demand, though it requires more energy and focus than the optimal level, and is hard to maintain throughout a match without going into zones of "pushing" or "forcing", where mistakes happen. However - in the maximum performance zone, you're not exceeding anything you've achieved in practice, generally. This is the zone you tap into when you need that extra 10% to try to win the match, etc.

Then there's the third zone. The peak performance zone. You can't force it, you can't plan for it, you can't practice for it. It only happens when you're supremely confident, and you completely let go to your subconscious mind in your performance. Amazing things happen in this zone. This is the so-called "Zone", where everything works effortlessly, efficiently, and accurately, and is often characterized by feelings of having had a spiritual experience at some level. You can, in fact, turn in performances in this zone that far exceed what you've done in the past.

None of these things exceed your ability - the optimal zone is your comfortable performance zone, the maximal performance is the edge of the envelope you've found so far, the peak generally makes you aware that you're capable of more than you've been giving yourself credit for (and, for me, usually precedes the step up to the next performance "level").

Jake is spot on that you will not reliably be able to perform at a level above the edge of the envelope you've worked to in practice when you go into a match. To purposefully push that envelope can easily result in catastrophe. Flyin40 is somewhat getting at the peak performance phenomenon - but it doesn't happen when you're consciously pushing (in fact, in my experience, consciously pushing is the best way to keep it from happening in the first place) - ironically, it only seems to happen when you're most relaxed and confident. In a roundabout way, you guys are talking about the same thing, really....