Sideways Or Edgeon Plates

[Religious Shooter]

Sorry if this has been discussed...

At the A1 3G match I shot at some heavy plates on a pedestal. The shot caught the edge and spun the plates. The plates did not fall but turned pretty much "edgeon" (maybe a couple of degrees off). I took a couple of extra shots to put them down (add the shot time and the extra reload it took about 1+ sec per plate).

There probably has been a couple of revisions to the rule. But I remember at one time if they spun like that they were considered as being down.

Now...

IPSC Shotgun Competition Rules

USPSA Version

January 2004

US4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Scoring metal targets which accidentally turn edgeon or sideways or which fail to fall or overturn when hit, or which a Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them or for any other reason, will be treated as range equipment failure. (see Rule 4.6.1).

If I had left them, would I have gotten a reshoot? Would they have been counted as down?

Is there a definition or what does "accidentally turn edgeon or sideways or which fail to fall or overturn when hit"? I hit them on the edge and spun them. I think that I would have gotten a punk-azz reshoot if you went by the rules.

[RogerT]

Hi all.

I think you're right, that's REF.

If hit so they spin, they should fall.

[GuildSF4]

If I had left them, would I have gotten a reshoot?  Would they have been counted as down?

Is there a definition or what does "accidentally turn edgeon or sideways or which fail to fall or overturn when hit"?  I hit them on the edge and spun them.  I think that I would have gotten a punk-azz reshoot if you went by the rules.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you had not re-engaged the targets you get a re-shoot. They are supposed to fall even on an edge hit. (Basicly same as pistol rules on this.)

(I think the accidently is from chaos theory rules where hit in the same area doesn't always cause the same reaction on the target. )

Edit: PS- also note this part of the rule "which fail to fall or overturn when hit", they didn't fall or overturn = REF = re-shoot.

Edited September 24, 2005 by GuildSF4

[George]

Automatic re-shoot, even if you did not ask for it if you leave it sideways. A sideways plate is a range equipment failure every single time.

We had one person in our squad who was unable to put a sideways one down even with a second shot. He got an automatic re-shoot.

BTW, what squad did ya shoot on? I was on 3.

--

Regards,

[Religious Shooter]

BTW, what squad did ya shoot on? I was on 3.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was on 2 with SmkShwn. I was the cheater using remington low recoil out of an 1100.

[George]

And I was the one running real lite shot that makes 520 PF by a rats a$$ (see SG chrono post) ;-)

[D.Hayden]

I had that happen to, I wasn't sure about a 3Gun match, so I shot it again.. worst part was, it was the last plate, last shot, and I had to reload to take it..

btw: Squad 5 for me

[mactiger]

George has it right. Automatic reshoot when the plate doesn't fall if hit, whether you knock it down or not on a subsequent shot.

Troy

[Religious Shooter]

George has it right.  Automatic reshoot when the plate doesn't fall if hit, whether you knock it down or not on a subsequent shot.

Troy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK to rehash what happened... I shot the plates, a couple turned sideways, I shot them again and went on and finished the stage.

So even though I continued on I could have asked for a reshoot?

Or is that reshoot only available after the shots that turned the plates and the subsequent shots (that knocked them down) erased the reshoot opportunity?

I don't think the RO was saavy to the rule and I was not immediately stopped. I'm sure I'm gonna experience more stages like this. So I'm thinking of a strategy or the proper response when this happens.

In the case the RO doesn't stop you I could have:

1. Leave them up and continue the stage. (And after you have expended all those rounds and unloaded and showed clear you can tell the RO you want a reshoot... and now your squadmates can patch up and pick up all those extra targets. And of course you run the risk that the RO/MD won't agree with you and you get those mikes. )

2. Take the extra shots and go. (In this case it was shotgun and I had to reload afterwards. So those shots, for me, added ~1+ seconds each shot to my time. )

3. Stop yourself immediately and explain to the RO the rules.

What do you guys do?

[mactiger]

If you hit the plate, and it turns edge on, or sideways, or just doesn't fall, it's an automatic reshoot per rule US 4.3.1.5, 4.6.1 and 4.6.2 (range equipment failure). The problem must be corrected and you get a reshoot. You can stop at the point when the plate doesn't fall when you hit it. If you have to explain the rule to the RO, then do so. You should not have to ask for the reshoot, nor do you get a choice--it's automatic.

Troy

[RickB]

If you hit the plate, and it turns edge on, or sideways, or just doesn't fall, it's an automatic reshoot per rule US 4.3.1.5, 4.6.1 and 4.6.2 (range equipment failure).  The problem must be corrected and you get a reshoot.  You can stop at the point when the plate doesn't fall when you hit it.  If you have to explain the rule to the RO, then do so. You should not have to ask for the reshoot, nor do you get a choice--it's automatic.

Troy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since a Texas Star isn't an approved target, how would that rule apply? If a plate is hit, and dislodged from its mount, but doesn't fall to the ground, what's the call?

[GuildSF4]

Since a Texas Star isn't an approved target, how would that rule apply?  If a plate is hit, and dislodged from its mount, but doesn't fall to the ground, what's the call?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Range Equipment failure, same as if plate fell without being shot...

[Flexmoney]

Since a Texas Star isn't an approved target, how would that rule apply?  If a plate is hit, and dislodged from its mount, but doesn't fall to the ground, what's the call?

The star isn't the target, the plates are. Works just the same a a rack of plates.

[mactiger]

Since a Texas Star isn't an approved target, how would that rule apply?  If a plate is hit, and dislodged from its mount, but doesn't fall to the ground, what's the call?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who says it's not an approved target? As Flex stated, the plates are the targets. The holder or stand they're on is immaterial. And, if what you say happens, it's still REF and a reshoot.

Troy

Edited October 7, 2005 by mactiger

[RickB]

Since a Texas Star isn't an approved target, how would that rule apply?  If a plate is hit, and dislodged from its mount, but doesn't fall to the ground, what's the call?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who says it's not an approved target? As Flex stated, the plates are the targets. The holder or stand their on is immaterial. And, if what you say happens, it's still REF and a reshoot.

Troy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting. We've had a number of instances of t-star stages being thrown out, because the holder or stand was determined to present an unequal test of skill.

A lot of the grumbling included, "It's not approved, anyway . . ."

Thanks

Edited October 7, 2005 by RickB

[Nik Habicht]

Interesting.  We've had a number of instances of t-star stages being thrown out, because the holder or stand was determined to present an unequal test of skill. 

A lot of the grumbling included, "It's not approved, anyway . . ."

Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rick,

Yup, that could happen, unless certain precautions are taken. Whenever I set up a star, I spray the arm that will go on top of the activator stick a different color, to ensure a consistent presentation. Likewise, the position on the ground is marked, or a board is spiked there. The star doesn't need to create any more issues than a drop turner, swinger, or bobbler....

[Jim Norman]

The Texas Star is a fantastic skill test. You are shooting at a moving target that reverses course, speeds up and slows down as you pick off the individual plates.

Yes, it is true that once you start it and shoot the first plate it is a different challenge than it might be for some one that shoots a different plate first or lets the Star slow down before shooting it. SO WHAT? So is a swinger. I can stand there and wait till a swinger or bobbler stops and shoot it, or I cna shot it at what ever speed it is moving, I can decide to shoot a Drop-turner before ar after a static depending on whether or not I feel good abount my current skill level.

Just shoot it. THe more you do, the better you'll be at it.

Oh, and if you are in charge of setting it up, follow Nik's suggestion as to marking the arm and the positions of the supports. THis is good practice for any mover.

Jim Norman