Iowa State Idpa Match Cancelled

[Carmoney]

Just received this forwarded email:

"Sorry to inform you, but I am cancelling the 2005 IA state match that was to be held in Lowell, IA on Oct 9th. Lack of interest and an extremely low number of applications makes this necessary. I do apologize sincerely for this but there is no alternative. Shooters that did pay will have their money refunded ASAP. See http://www.linncountyidpa.com/ if you need more details concerning the match cancellation.

Sincerely,

Joshua Kissling"

Meanwhile, participation in several other shooting discplines here in Iowa is better than ever!

[Keith]

Too bad, Mike. Even though I don't shoot IDPA much anymore, I hate to see that happen.

Minnesota hasn't had an IDPA state match in two years. Or more.

I think there would be enough interest, but, there is not a club that wants to put it on. The club up in Duluth always put on a great state match but then got a little burnt out on it. I don't blame them. It is a lot of work.

[ozzy1038]

That's too bad. It makes me wonder if it's because IDPA is losing members, therefor less people can actually participate in the match.

On a brighter note. Olofson range outside of Polk City will be having a match

this Sunday at 9:00am, registration at 8:30. And one in Boone the following Saturday at the same time. If anybody needs directions to the Boone match

let me know.

Happy Shooting!!!!!!!!!!

[Ben Stoeger]

I don't think that this match getting cancelled is really representative of IDPA as a whole.

Everything was very last minute. Its really hard to get the word out for a match in a short time frame like that. I hope it happens next year, and I hope to be there.

Later,

Ben

[Carmoney]

Well Ben, by way of contrast, 2005 was also the very first year for the sanctioned USPSA Iowa Sectional match. It was also sort of last minute, like any new match, and it attracted 77 paid members!

As another nice example, check out how many shooters participated in the the first annual Big Dawg steel match (the slots sold out almost instantly), held at the very same location which was to host the now-canceled IDPA state match (Lowell). People came from all around the country (including shooters from Pennsylvania, Colorado, and Massachusetts, to list a few) to shoot the very first year of the completely unknown Big Dawg match.....people here like to shoot!

However, as of this year, there are only a small handful of Iowa shooters who have renewed their IDPA memberships. The Olofson and Boone clubs mentioned by Ozzy1038 are not IDPA clubs. The "tactical" matches offered at those venues are run by good guys (both of whom happen to be friends of mine), but these are definitely NOT sanctioned IDPA matches.

In the whole state of Iowa, there are two IDPA affiliate clubs: Linn County IDPA (admittedly a new club), which has only been able to attract 7 or 8 shooters to their matches so far (2 or 3 being paid IDPA members), and Ames Ikes, which has only 4 or 5 IDPA members participating at any given match (along with a number of non-members). Suffice it to say that IDPA is in an extremely unhealthy condition in this area--I'd bet money that there are less than 15 current, paid, and active IDPA members in the whole state.

Mike

[Ben Stoeger]

Well Carmoney, thats just to bad. I hope to see things turn around next year. I really would like to see an Iowa state IDPA match down there.

Later,

Ben

[Anthony Lombardo]

there are 5 IDPA matches within 100 miles of me here in SC and they usually have 50-75 at each match. Our state match was sold out at 150 shooters for the past 2 years.

IDPA thrives in "right to carry" states.

Places where people cannot easily carry do not do as well as far as interest, IMO.

It is a regional thing, for sure.

IPSC isn't dead here at all, but it is not exactly thriving in this area like IDPA.

[Carmoney]

I agree it seems to be a regional thing. It may have something to do with the perception of exposure to crime. Iowa is a "sheriff's discretion" state, not a "right to carry" state (unfortunately). If our state law were amended to "right to carry" or "must issue", I doubt much would change! Most of us who want to carry have found legal means of obtaining a permit.

Lots of factors go into it, not the least of which is the relative health and popularity of other handgun shooting sports. Even with our low population density, I can find a USPSA or steel match to shoot most weekends within a 90-minute drive. That doesn't exist in many parts of the country.

I do enjoy the tactical matches being run here in this area, and plan to continue participating. For reasons that don't need to be rehashed, though, I will not send any more money to Berryville. And I know that many, many others feel the same way.

[Johnny Van Etta]

I personally am not a member of IDPA.  I was going to join but when I found out I don't need to to shoot at the matches I shoot.  I figured, why?

IDPA rules require the local match folks to allow you to participate once without joining, but you have to join IDPA to participate after that.

On a side note, when I sent them an e-mail 2 weeks ago asking whether my P14 was ESP legal they still have yet to respond.  Maybe they don't know themselves or maybe since I'm not a member they don't need to respond.

So, you're not a member, do not expect to become a member, but expect quick & expedient response? From folks who may not know the answer????

I'm not mad, I just figure that it wouldn't/shouldn't take that long to get a response from the HQ.  Yes, if I were going to shoot at a state match or what not I would join.  It's sad, but I really don't see IDPA doing anything to add members or keep members.

This would apply to adding members like....you?

Good luck,

JVE

Edited September 19, 2005 by Duane Thomas

[rmills]

The IDPA organization has a published set of rules just as IPSC, USPSA, ICORE, Bianchi, SASS, and other organizations do. If you wish to particpate in one of their competitions, you must follow their rules. IDPA is no different. Rather than bashing another sport, participate in one of the other organizations where the rules better fit your shooting preferences.

Here in Ohio, our local IDPA matches always have great attendance. The State Championship always fills up. Many clubs in Ohio offer IDPA, Rifle, Shotgun, and 3 gun matches, but yet don't offer USPSA matches.

Match attendance reflects the product that a range is selling. Well managed, fun matches, will always attract shooters regardless of the discipline.

"If you want to talk, talk. If you want to shoot, shoot".

Edited September 15, 2005 by rmills

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I don't care what shooting sport it is, I really hate to see a match canceled. Our local IDPA attendance has dropped off also. I do not feel is a the fault of IDPA but it is no new blood willing to take over set up and tear down and the other needed duties.

My participation is down due to other commitments. Example: This Saturday I will drive 2 hrs each way to shoot IDPA. Sunday I can not drive 15 minutes to a match due to other duties. (maybe even some much needed typing lessons) The close match is my local club and I would like to be there but it just isn't in the stars.

Regards,

Edited September 19, 2005 by Duane Thomas

[Keith]

My participation in IDPA is also down because of a busy shooting schedule. I believe I have made it to two matches this year. I shot an IDPA match last Sunday and shot in both revolver divisions.

For what it's worth, IDPA is well attended in MN still. And it grew a little more when we got shall issue. It's just that nobody wants to run a large state match it seems.

[freeidaho]

I personally am not a member of IDPA.  I was going to join but when I found out I don't need to to shoot at the matches I shoot.  I figured, why?  On a side note, when I sent them an e-mail 2 weeks ago asking whether my P14 was ESP legal they still have yet to respond.  Maybe they don't know themselves or maybe since I'm not a member they don't need to respond.  I'm not mad, I just figure that it wouldn't/shouldn't take that long to get a response from the HQ.  Yes, if I were going to shoot at a state match or what not I would join.  It's sad, but I really don't see IDPA doing anything to add members or keep members.  I think the rules are too exclusionary.  Why shouldn't someone be able to use a OWB kydex paddle holster?  Sure it "prints" more than IWB but some people may use them in real life as a carry holster.  I think that IDPA may take itself too seriously.  When it all boils down it is a game and should be treated as such.  A game based upon real life scenarios.  This is just my 2 cents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sir or Maam,

Let me see if I have this right. You are shooting at an unaffiliated club that steals the use of an IDPA rulebook, with some few modifications. These modifications aren't written down, and nobody is really sure what the rules are. The MD says your P14 is not allowed in this stolen ESP division.

To settle this debate, you write IDPA HQ, although you are not a member, and the club denying the use of your P14 is not affiliated.

And from all of this, you draw the conclusion that your problem is IDPA HQ, and IDPA rules.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you are on to something here. It must be IDPA HQ.

Ken Reed

"You are what you do, everything else is just talk."

Edited September 16, 2005 by freeidaho

[Jane]

IDPA thrives in "right to carry" states.

Places where people cannot easily carry do not do as well as far as interest, IMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That may be. But California certainly isn't a "right to carry", and we closed out registration for last year's state championship at 175 shooters almost 3 months before the match.

[Anthony Lombardo]

IDPA thrives in "right to carry" states.

Places where people cannot easily carry do not do as well as far as interest, IMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That may be. But California certainly isn't a "right to carry", and we closed out registration for last year's state championship at 175 shooters almost 3 months before the match.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

CA has 33 Million inhabitants.

SC has 3.5 million inhabitants.

With those numbers, you should have had 1000 registrants at your state match!

[Jane]

CA has 33 Million inhabitants.

SC has 3.5 million inhabitants.

With those numbers, you should have had 1000 registrants at your state match!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But SC doesn't seem a state where many have a mindset to elect people like Boxer and Feinstein

[JayC]

Carmoney has nailed it on the head with all of his posts. Great Job Mike. I run the the "tactical" matches at the Olofson range here in Iowa. I am also 1 of only 2 IDPA certified RO's here in Iowa, doesn't mean much. If you've been through the class, you know what I mean.

Iowa doesn't have a core group or core groups of IDPA shooters. There are maybe 7 or 8 people that will travel to the clubs to shoot matches, myself included when possible. None of the places that have matches (IDPA or not) just don't have a return group month after month. They seem to always be new shooters. I have fought this in the past even when I had sanctioned IDPA clubs. There isn't much of a solution. Shooters won't even travel 30 miles to shoot at another club, lol. If you were to total up all the places here that shoot host a match, you may have 20 regulars total, and most are not members.

Clubs here in Iowa and I know there are others in other states, don't require shooters to be members. Unless you plan on going to state or national matches, there's no reason to be. The tactical journal is not worth the price of admission. As a member you don't get to vote on rules, you don't get to vote for who's on the board, etc. Why make a shooter become a member to get a rule book, sticker, membership card, and a classification card if they are not going to big matches.

The major draw back to the Iowa match was a lack of interest by shooters. There are not enough IDPA members here in Iowa to fill a squad, not to mention not enough certified people to do one. Not to mention, if they won't drive 30 miles to go shoot a club match, why drive 3 hours to the SE corner of Iowa to shoot a state match. I commend Josh for attempting to put something together. I was even asked to help with it. There were other issues besides this though. Most of the RO's, assistant match directors, stats people, everybody needed for the match were from out of the state. They consisted of people from WI, IL, and I believe MO. That's not an Iowa match. Props and other items were going to be pulled from other clubs in other states.

I don't believe Iowa not being a right to carry state has anything to do with it. Polk County is for the most part a right to carry county (if you want it, you got it). What's the population of Polk County? A lot more than I'd even like to guess, and there still isn't a turn out at matches.

To freeidaho. I know the rules. I recieved a letter from the area director (as did every certified RO) for input to the new rules when the new rules were being written. The only reason the club isn't affiliated is due to how HQ handled the new rule book along with some of the new rules. I don't care for how it took a stand in the original (new) book against some manufacturers. I also don't believe some of the new rules are fair to the shooters and are not driving the sport in the direction it needs to go. I had my club check and my membership reaffiliation check at HQ, but canceled both upon the new rule book coming out. You are speaking about items that you know nothing about. There is nothing wrong with writing HQ when you're not a member. When I started shooting IDPA back in 1998 I wrote and called them with questions about equipment and rules, so I could get set up to shoot the game in the spirit and within the rules. They never had a problem answering questions except that emails were and still are very slow to respond. When I became a member in 98, none of that changed and is still true today.

Also the new rule book just as it was in the old rule book, just isn't clear on all of the rules. It leaves some open to interpretation of the RO or match director. Well, unless you have the same RO or match director everywhere at the same time, some things are not going to be the same. I know the rule Ozzy is questioning. In the new rule book in ESP it is stated as 9mm and up, where in CDP it is .45ACP. The last time I checked a Para P14 is a .45ACP, and the last time I looked at mine it still had a .45 caliber hole at the chamber. So this leaves it open to is the P14 allowed in ESP or not. There's no need to knock him as he is a new shooter (has shot 2 matches) and he is just trying to get an equipment issue answered so he knows what division to shoot in.

Things at HQ have always been a little unorganized, but that is to be expected since it is a small business. It also doesn't help when members don't have a say or vote in the organization. When you think of their size and all of the clubs and people that send them questions or call them, it's to be expected.

Jay

[freeidaho]

I know the rule Ozzy is questioning. In the new rule book in ESP it is stated as 9mm and up, where in CDP it is .45ACP. The last time I checked a Para P14 is a .45ACP, and the last time I looked at mine it still had a .45 caliber hole at the chamber. So this leaves it open to is the P14 allowed in ESP or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jay, et. al.;

The IDPA rulebook is clear on ESP, I don't know what the problem is, unless it is unclear if .45 inch is bigger than 9mm.

But of course y'all are not shooting IDPA.

Other clubs and groups of shooters have also left IDPA because of the direction it took, either in 2001 or 2005. People voting with their feet can be a good thing. Organizations like TSA and IDSA, wrote their own rulebook and published it for all to see.... as it should be. Admirable sports both, and good shooting by all accounts.

Thus I think the solution to this problem is still simple. Have Ozzy write to whomever in the outlaw club wrote the rulebook that replaced the IDPA rulebook when affiliation was dropped.

Personally, I think it is questionable to denounce IDPA but use almost all of the rulebook and go to HQ for support. Basically all that has been denounced is the paying.

Ken Reed

"You are what you do, everything else is just talk."

[diehli]

I think it is questionable to denounce IDPA but use almost all of the rulebook

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Pot, this is Kettle. Come in. Over."

[JayC]

To the IDPA purist, anybody not an IDPA member or clubs not affiliated will be in the wrong. But you know history is a good learning tool. Hitler thought he was right in what he was doing and in his thoughts. Sadaam thought he was right in what he did and his thoughts. The terrorist that we are currently fighting feel they are correct in their thoughts and actions. The list goes on and on.

Some people will look down upon what our club and other clubs do (there are more than you probably think), does it matter, not really to me. I put on some of the best matches around here. I challenge my shooters. I know my shooters will walk away from a match having had fun and knowing what they need to work on, and they will have also learned some about their shooting ability. That's what is important to me. Not having the Bill Wilson seal of approval, at $30.00. Not paying a $50.00 a year club reaffiliation fee and getting some rules books and a wooden box (that I have many of already). Putting the club on the website and in the tactical journal is also not worth it in my opinion. There is nothing for a club or shooter to benefit from by joining IDPA. If the tactical journal had good articles in it, it would be worth the membership fee. There are no real articles on improving skills, on the top shooters, on equipment issues, on reloading, on shooter improvement, drills, etc. It contains very little useful information.

[ozzy1038]

Watch out Jay, you might write something that some people don't want to hear and stir up a hornets nest! I have discovered that it does no good to try to explain to those that do not want to hear.

You DO put on GREAT matches and so does Jim even if they are "stolen" from IDPA.

Happy shooting to everyone no matter what you shoot, sanctioned or not!!

As a great American once said, "Can't we all get along"?

[jkelly]

FreeIdaho,

If you really think they are "stealing" perhaps you need to "rat" on them. Yeah that's what you need to do, the rest is just talk!

jkelly

Edited September 22, 2005 by jkelly

[Sestock]

Here in Ohio, our local IDPA matches always have great attendance. The State Championship always fills up. Many clubs in Ohio offer IDPA, Rifle, Shotgun, and 3 gun matches, but yet don't offer USPSA matches.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are many USPSA clubs in OH, just ask Flex.

In western PA we are seeing more and more IDPA shooters trying out USPSA matches.

[rmills]

Here in Ohio, our local IDPA matches always have great attendance. The State Championship always fills up. Many clubs in Ohio offer IDPA, Rifle, Shotgun, and 3 gun matches, but yet don't offer USPSA matches.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are many USPSA clubs in OH, just ask Flex.

In western PA we are seeing more and more IDPA shooters trying out USPSA matches.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm very familiar with the USPSA matches here in Ohio as I particpated in them for many years. As far as IDPA ----> USPSA crossovers, we see many USPSA---->IDPA crossovers. Both sports are fun and offer different challenges. Shoot what you want and let others do the same.

Edited September 23, 2005 by rmills

[ima45dv8]

Shoot what you want and let others do the same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Words we can all live by.