Calling A Miss And Making It Up

[Flyin40]

I wondering how everyone makes a shot up after you call a miss. I found I'm not very good at this. I can call the miss easily but I can't make it up very well without losing alot of time. Does anyone practice this at all or just do it in a match.

I haven't live fired except for once this past week and maybe once the week prior since June other than matches. I was wondering if that has more to do with it than anything.

I'm assuming because I haven't been doing it in dryfiring its been transferring directly over to live fire at matches. I was thinking about it after talking with a fellow shooter this weekend. I'm not sure why I don't make them up in dryfire because its just common sense to. I realized it after thinking about it the last couple of days.

Whats some things I can do to improve on this???

Thks

Flyin40

[short_round]

... from what I can understand, first you have to be committed to making the shot. Whether you are committed to hitting the highest scoring zone or just any scoring zone is up to you. If you are committed to this and apply your shot calling skills then ...

When you know, at the instant the shot broke, that it missed the target, the make up comes automatically.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you can read more here, here, and here ...

dig a little bit and you'll find much more

[Nate]

I left one I knew was low on a partial this last weekend. Usually I just "know" and add the shot I need right away but there is no getting away from the time you loose. I guess you have to know before the timer goes off about the time points trade off 'factor wise'.

[XRe]

In theory, if you're calling your shots well, and you happen to get sloppy on a shot (ie, you call it a miss, or maybe a D), your followup should be about the same time as the second shot on the target - one more split. If you're standing there deciding whether or not to do it, you're not committed (or maybe you *should* be...) If you've gone on to the next target and are having to come back, or something, that's a different issue - you're not aware of what's going on, and you're shooting consciously... or something...

[Flexmoney]

Flyin40,

This is similar to your other thread.

Both sure sound like a visual patience issue. You seem to have a desire to get on to the next target...a desire for speed...a focus on speed.

It can be tough. I battled some of this early in the year. Anderson fought it some when he was playing in Production this year.

For me, the answer is to focus on seeing. To see what I need to see to ensure a called hit...in the middle of the target zone.

[Jake Di Vita]

Don't practice making shots up...you shouldn't have to anyway ....

There really is no way to practice it....just read the dot...if the shot looked bad pull the trigger again.

It is absolutely no more complex than that.

[jnshapiro]

I make it part of practice. If I'm practicing and call a miss, I'll make it up. That way I go through the same procedure at a match.

What you do in practice is what you do at a match.

[zhunter]

That must be like fantasizing about pre-mature ejaculation

Sorry, but how do you dry-Fire a miss?

[j1b]

One thing you've got to be is mentally prepared to make up a shot should you call a miss. So all of the things mentioned are relevant right? Visual patience. Seeing the sight/dot. Tracking. paying attention etc. etc.

But look at it like learning how to handle an icy road. Noone really practices this. What most of us do is learn how to handle it through listening, reading, studying etc. etc. After that, when the situation comes where you are sliding on ice, you apply what you've learned. Almost instantly you will begin to understand the difference in what your impressions of what you needed to do are versus what you need to do in reality.

I wouldn't make practicing a make up shot part of your routine. I would make calling a miss, and making up that shot a critical component of your routine. And personally I extend that to all practice sessions - live or dry. Is it difficult to call a dry fire miss? Certainly - but I know I do it. I know when I've seen something that didn't look right - and sometimes I've thought "I should have made that up" - I'd rather think that in practice then wish it in a match. Being prepared to do it is the key.

It is well known that the human mind retains low percentages of what we've read or have been told but we remember nearly 100% of what we feel! Be prepared to call misses and make them up. Only then will you begin to feel and see what needs to happen to execute those make up shots quickly. At that point you will improve and it will become a none issue.

Just my $.02

J

[mcoliver]

..I can call the miss easily but I can't make it up very well without losing alot of time.  ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you lose time making it up? What makes the recovery shot any different than any other that you think you need to "refine" something?

Try shooting paper plates. Recover every shot you saw that you think didn't hit then examine the plates after each run. Work back what you saw and did on the plates that got two hits or none at all. HTH.

[Flyin40]

That must be like fantasizing about pre-mature ejaculation

Sorry, but how do you dry-Fire a miss?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually quite easily, during dry fire I work a lot on calling the shot, knowing exactly where the dot is when I pull the trigger. If you use SA dryfire book he has some array of targets with par times. Some par times are quite fast based on your ability. You have a base par time then work on slower and faster pars times.

On some of the faster par times your goal is the same as the slower ones. Smoothness, see the dot, call your shot, shoot an A. While working on par faster than your base you can tend to start rushing trying to make the par time. When this happens different things can happen, getting sloppy, not seeing what you need to see. So when you go through the array during dry fire and working on the par time you might not have a A sight picture, maybe a D though your goal is always an A. If I had a D sight picture I wasn't making it up in dryfire. Basically saying to myself, that was a D hit, make the shot up. So in live fire I did as I practiced, not making up the shot.

I have no idea why I was doing this, just wasn't smart but I just realized it after putting some thought into it.

Flex,

I agree with the visual patience. On steel I'm only doing at certain times, mostly transitioning from Steel to paper. I can have a whole array of steel, really see what I need to see but then on the last one for some reason I don't see what I need to see or rush it and I leave it standing or worrying about transitioning to the next target before I finish the shot. I thinks its worrying about getting to the next target.

As far as making up the shot it I know it has to do with visual patience because if I had seen what I need to see to begin with I wouldn't have had to make the shot up. But the question is more about how to make the shot up.

You, Sa and Jake can make shots up quick, basically like its automatic, not a second thought, if you called the miss you just make it up, period. Thats my goal but right now I'm not there. I can call a miss but for some reason my minds takes to much time to process it and I can't make it up quick, I'm already on the next target. I have thought about it and I think it ties into dry firing or even live fire. Because in dry fire I dont' just make the shot up, I finish the array then go back through my mind a go over every shot and where it went. So basically I"m moving onto the next target without making up the shot. Could this be the problem???

Basically I'm trying to identify what I'm doing wrong that prevents me from just making the shot up instantly. It just as much a mental thing as it is how I practice I'm figuring.

Flyin40

[Flexmoney]

John,

If your goal isn't to see...and see the proper things, then you will continue to have trouble.

Blowing the last shot in an array is a common issue. It comes from wanting speed..from rushing. The lack of follow through (very much like the football reciever looking up-field before he completes the catch).

Having the patience/follow-thru to call the last shot before a transition is likely going to be the fastest way to get to the next target anyway. The knowing will release the tension and allow the speed to happen.

It's all about the vision/feedback...the knowing.

[Merlin Orr]

John,

If your goal isn't to see...and see the proper things, then you will continue to have trouble.

Blowing the last shot in an array is a common issue.  It comes from wanting speed..from rushing.  The lack of follow through (very much like the football reciever looking up-field before he completes the catch).

Having the patience/follow-thru to call the last shot before a transition is likely going to be the fastest way to get to the next target anyway.  The knowing will release the tension and allow the speed to happen.

It's all about the vision/feedback...the knowing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know - I understand - I read this thread and nodded sagely at least 3 times today. At the indoor match I attended tonight I forgot everthing I ever knew. Damn.....

[Flyin40]

John,

If your goal isn't to see...and see the proper things, then you will continue to have trouble.

Blowing the last shot in an array is a common issue.  It comes from wanting speed..from rushing.  The lack of follow through (very much like the football reciever looking up-field before he completes the catch).

Having the patience/follow-thru to call the last shot before a transition is likely going to be the fastest way to get to the next target anyway.  The knowing will release the tension and allow the speed to happen.

It's all about the vision/feedback...the knowing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Flex

I understand what your saying and agree with you but what I'm looking for has more to do with making up the shot. The thought process that allows you to just make it up. Things happen so fast you can't sit there and think I have to make the shot up. It has to come automatically. I'm finding my problem is it doesn't happen automactically, it more a "I missed I need to make that shot up".

I just spent an hr dryfiring and experimenting with this very topic. I found some things out.

I went through some drills at a fast speed on purpose.to do nothing more than cause me to rush and simulate a bad shot and a make-up. The goal of the this was 2 part. First, as always I want the dot centered on the A zone everytime. 2nd is when I squeezed the trigger and if I seen that I didn't see the dot on the A-zone I would make the shot up.

Its not surprising to me what I found out and what I have been trying to figure out.

Even though I knew I wanted to make the shot up I still couldn't.

It was nothing more than I was't mentally prepared to make the shot up, even if it was a bad shot. I could see the shot but mentally I trained myself to not make it up. I had been practicing just going to the next target even if I seen that dot on the D zone or a miss. Again I have no clue why I was doing this. Very dumb. After some time I was able to make up shots quickly. I can see that I have to retrain my thought process when it comes to this so it becomes 2nd nature.

Does this make sense???

Thks all for the feedback. Its very helpful.

Flyin40

[Flyin40]

One thing you've got to be is mentally prepared to make up a shot should you call a miss. So all of the things mentioned are relevant right? Visual patience. Seeing the sight/dot. Tracking. paying attention etc. etc.

But look at it like learning how to handle an icy road. Noone really practices this. What most of us do is learn how to handle it through listening, reading, studying etc. etc. After that, when the situation comes where you are sliding on ice, you apply what you've learned. Almost instantly you will begin to understand the difference in what your impressions of what you needed to do are versus what you need to do in reality.

I wouldn't make practicing a make up shot part of your routine. I would make calling a miss, and making up that shot a critical component of your routine. And personally I extend that to all practice sessions - live or dry. Is it difficult to call a dry fire miss? Certainly - but I know I do it. I know when I've seen something that didn't look right - and sometimes I've thought "I should have made that up" - I'd rather think that in practice then wish it in a match. Being prepared to do it is the key.

It is well known that the human mind retains low percentages of what we've read or have been told but we remember nearly 100% of what we feel! Be prepared to call misses and make them up. Only then will you begin to feel and see what needs to happen to execute those make up shots quickly. At that point you will improve and it will become a none issue.

Just my $.02

J

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just went back and reread the whole thread. I'm not sure how I missed this post but I did. This is exactly what I was talking about in my last post. Great input. I'm actually glad I missed the post and was able to figure it out myself. Your right on

j1b. Thks

Flyin40

[dajarrel]

Flyin40,

I had an experience with making up a miss this weekend at the GA state match. Usually I don't catch my misses. I'm trying to go too fast. But Saturday, I was having a normally mediocre day before my rear sight hinge pin broke... but thats another topic.

Anyway I was shooting stage 6 and on the right hand array, second target back I pulled the trigger and KNEW that the sights weren't lined up and immediatly made the shot up. I had shot one into the hard cover and made it up with an 'A'...15 point savings for about a quarter of a second.

It was a really neat feeling to have that visual clarity at that moment. If I hadn't had just one more target to shoot, I probably would have paused to enjoy the moment

FWIW

dj

[Shooter Grrl]

John,

Blowing the last shot in an array is a common issue.  It comes from wanting speed..from rushing.  The lack of follow through (very much like the football reciever looking up-field before he completes the catch).

Having the patience/follow-thru to call the last shot before a transition is likely going to be the fastest way to get to the next target anyway.  The knowing will release the tension and allow the speed to happen.

It's all about the vision/feedback...the knowing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ahem, John! Make sure you read this one a couple of times, kay

[Flexmoney]

  Things happen so fast you can't sit there and think ...

Well, that is entirely true. But, I think there is something a bit more fundamental going on here still.

I understand what your saying and agree with you but what I'm looking for has more to do with making up the shot.

Right. I think we still have the same fundamental issue that is preventing this.

The thought process that allows you to just make it up.  It has to come automatically.

I'm finding my problem is it doesn't happen automactically, it more a "I missed I need to make that shot up".

What I think you are looking for is the thing that allows this to happen (the right things).

I went through some drills at a fast speed on purpose.to do nothing more than cause me to rush and simulate a bad shot and a make-up.  The goal of the this was 2 part.  First, as always I want the dot centered on the A zone everytime.  2nd is when I squeezed the trigger and if I seen that I didn't see the dot on the A-zone I would make the shot up.

Its not surprising to me what I found out and what I have been trying to figure out.

Even though I knew I wanted to make the shot up I still couldn't.

Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy here. You went into the experiment with the idea to rush...then see what happens. Rushing is a hurdle that is keeping you from your goal in the first place.

It was nothing more than I was't mentally prepared to make the shot up...

Ask yourself why?

I could see the shot but mentally I trained myself to not make it up.

I had been practicing just going to the next target...

Again I have no clue why I was doing this.

Does this make sense??? 

Makes pretty good sense. You were training for speed (rushing), not training to hit the target and call the shot.

[j1b]

John,

If your goal isn't to see...and see the proper things,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personally, I'd be cautious in thinking about shooting this way. Not the "seeing" part, but the seeing the "proper" things part.

Seeing is seeing. By assigning "proper" to the statement then it could be interpreted as "looking" which is not what I personally do.

IMO the trick isn't to see the proper things, it's to see as much as I possibly can and to understand what I'm seeing in terms of what it means to the shot I'm executing.

John - thanks for the comments!

J

[Jake Di Vita]

I think what he was saying is that seeing the proper things means seeing the sight lift out of the notch (or otherwise being able to accurately call the shot). If you can't see that....nothing else that you see really matters all that much.

[j1b]

That's fair Jake. I'm sure that's what Kyle meant.

I'm not going to go into thread drift here, and what is in my mind is best saved for a later day. A different thread perhaps. I'll only say that the constants that we all want to believe exist in shooting IPSC are not in fact constants. At speed the world is different and like it or not that involves understanding the dynamics of what is being seen with what in reality will happen.

Look, ideals are great and I agree with having them. But I worry about stating facts as if they are factual when they are not. Like what I read in the "wobble zone" post - hitting the targets is not tough. Seeing what you need to see to execute a shot? Not tough . . . unless you're at speed. At speed the world is different, the definitions of what that looks like are not constant. Learning to interpret what you see by seeing as much as you possibly can, from sight lift to ejecting brass, is the only way to enjoy success, IMO.

I know that one will hack some folks off - I apologize up front. I also apologize to John for drifting when I said I wouldn't.

J

[Flexmoney]

That's fair Jake. I'm sure that's what Kyle meant.

I was talk toward a specific, but you are right [Jack]. I'd hate to see anything I typed move somebody toward narrowing their awareness, as opposed to opening it up.

And, really, it goes beyond vision...to the other senses. The more feedback we can get, the better we seem to be able to deal with the reality that surrounds us. We are, however, pretty visually orientated. Vision seems to give me the most honest feedback from my shooting. But, it can lie to us when we let it. Nothing seems to trump the power of the mind. It will often see/feel what it wants to.

When I talked of 'seeing the proper things' my mind was thinking of getting the bullet on the scoring surface A-zone (if that is the proper goal) as opposed to hanging some hits on brown, for example. Or, staying with the gun/vision/target long enough to call the hit. Or...whatever it takes.

Our game is about getting a ratio of the most points per unit of time. Points per second. For me, the path toward that is efficiency. Knowing seems to allow that efficiency to happen. And, we know from being as aware as we can be in the moment...whatever our level may be.

All too often, we get caught up in the speed. Which, with the tension it brings, subtracts from the knowing.

Anyway...that's my ramblings for the moment.

[Flyin40]

Flex,

First let me say any constuctive critism is more than welcomed from anyone.

The purpose of posting for me is to find out information. I look at things differently than most. Do I think my way is the right way, no. I constantly change my outlook on my shooting goals based on what I learn. My learning is based on that level of understanding of that particular thing(calling shots). Which I have very little understanding of the whole thing.

BTW Flex I got it about 10 post ago that you think I rush. I have to disagree with you and let me explain why. I started shooting pistols in 1999, I shot maybe 7 ispc matches and I shot for a total of 6 months. I shot my first match I think In March of this yr, so its been 51/2 months and under a yr total.

I hadn't shot a pistol inbetween that time except the weekend prior to the match.

Most that see me shoot think I try to go fast. There are times when I do rush or try to go fast but its from a mental error. Trying to do the wrong thing. I can look back at this yr and only think of a handful of times that I was focused on speed.

One was recent, at the Michigan match. Our first 2 stages, Mine and Jakes time were the same but boy did I have penalties. I have no doubt I'm capable of the same speed but with all A's This was a mental error. We got to the match late, my normal routine was non exsistant, no dryfire warmup, no mental preparation. I just tried to hose the stage. I was tense and forcing things and everyone knows what happens then. I wasn't trying to "see".

When I shoot I shoot based on what I see. I still have several more notches of speed I can kick up but it results in bad performances because I'm shooting faster than I see. I'm probably shooting at 80-85%what I can shoot. I take it down in matches though it doesn't appear that way to most. I'm comfortable at this speed, I feel relax, not rushed though I will rush shot from time to time.

I think its more of an inexperienced shooter learning how to see faster and lack of disipline when pulling the trigger. I could slow down even futher, but I'M TRYING TO LEARN TO SEE FASTER, its capitalized because I believe at the upper levels of shooting this is key, its not shouting. My dry fire is alot faster than my live fire and during dry fire I really concentrate on getting that dot in the center of the target. I have found that while dryfiring I'm really seeing well, really getting the dot on the A. I'm trying to get it transferred to live fire.

If in talking about rushing your referring to visual patience I'll agree, I do rush. I believe the more understanding I have of calling the shot and visual patience the better I will be at understanding what I'm seeing. Once I make this connection completely I believe my level of shooting is going to jump up.

So I guess my question should be do you think I'm going too fast(flat trying to shoot to fast) or rushing(visual patience). I'm not sure how you define rushing or what type of rushing your talking about.

If your referring to me trying to rush from target to target to get through the course as fast as possible I'll have to disagree. Though you do want to get through the course you still need to see what your shooting.

Flyin40

[Flyin40]

I did a bunch of on reading on "Calling the Shot", Visual Patience" after work tonight. A couple things that made sense to me that I read. First let me get some definition out of the way. I think that is some of my problems, I'm calling something one thing but everyone else is referring to it with another name.

Sight alignment-this has to do with the gun back to you.

Sight picture- this has to do with focus on the sight in relation to the target.

Visual patience-allowing yourself to wait and see the right thing, not firing to soon

Rushing-focusing on getting to the next target as fast as possible, focused on speed.

Feel free to add to the definitions.

I have a little better grasp of this now. Far from understanding it completely but a step in the right direction. With my new awareness and understanding I went straight to dryfire to try on apply and understand it more. After doing all the drills in SA dryfire book and really working on seeing I set up a small course in the living room and kitchen. I'm working on shooting bigger course better and I practice visualizing shooting the course 4-5 times before shooting it. It has helped quite a bit. On this particular course I set up I had about 9 ispc targets and 5 paper plates. Basically I attempted to do this the same way as I do in a match. Take a look at the course, figure it out then visually go through every target and reload in the course. I did this 5 times on this course. I then stepped up and calmly said "SEE" to myself(with more understanding of visual patience this made mroe sense than " SEE THE DOT" I engaged the target exactly how I rehearsed it in my head until............ I came to the second paper plate. It slid down the couch(range malfunction ) but because I had it in my head where it was I was heading right where I thought it was ready to pull the trigger, at that point everything seemed to slow down and I waited until I moved the gun down to the plate and the dot was centered and then pulled the trigger. Though I don't think its a great example it has to do becasue its all I have.

Am I heading in the right direction???

Also BE talking about bench shooting made sense, read about it on the forums and while dryfiring tonight I had in MBurketts video with BE talking about that exact thing. This approach to learn how to call shots makes sense to me

Flyin40

[Steve Anderson]

John,

When I have trouble in this area, I turn the par times OFF.

The timer can become judgemental if we let it, and assign good/bad judgements to our dryfire. There are realms of quality in between.

Once you have reached XX% of your body's potential to do something, shifting your focus can be a good thing.

I used to be the stand and shoot king of Ohio...now I am getting much better at field courses and my (I hate this term) "speed shoots" are suffering a little.

That's OK, cause I can fix it, and the field courses are worth more match points anyway. It just reflects my shifting of focus to movement skills...

(BTW, didja ever notice that the big dogs don't always/usually win the little speed stages... HHHHMMMMMMMMMM. )

Anyhow...since my drills got you into this mess, let them get you out. Use the timer to start the run, and don't use a par time. You don't need them right now.

SA