Seeking suggestions on how I should modify load

[PaleoMan]

Hi,

 

I'm using Precision Bullets 125 gr coated 9mm bullets, CCI primers, and CFE Pistol primer in my reloading. The Hodgdon data for 125gr LCD 0.356" dia data showed an COL 1.125", a start load of 4.4gr (v=1041) and max load of 5.0 (v=1156fps) with a 4" barrel. Originally, I was using COL 1.125", and had worked up a load and everything was OK with 4.6gr.

 

Recently, though, I had made some changes to my Dillon press setup and currently have COL 1.132". I made new loads and tested them with the goal of having a load that would work for minor PF. I was most accurate with the 4.6gr and was getting an average PF of ~128 and v=1060fps, but was a little concerned as the PF was close to 125, so I decided to use the 4.8gr, which was showing a PF of ~134.

 

I started making batches of cartridges using 4.8gr, but after 200, I ran out of CCI primers, and had to switch to Fiocchi primers, which I've used before, back with Berry's plated bullets. I created a small batch of cartridges at 4.8gr at the same COL 1.132" and chronoed them. I'm seeing a PF of ~121 and a v=974.8 (I had a second chrono test with v=969.74).

 

Is it expected that one could see a variance of 13 PF and ~85 fps with different primers and the same bullets and load?

 

How should I proceed? The Hodgdon data says 5.0 is the max, but clearly, I'm not getting the same velocity with CFE Pistol and Fiocchi primers.

 

Do I slowly move up to 5.0, 5.2,... until I get a better PF and keep velocity under the max?

 

Would decreasing the OAL back to 1.125" increase the velocity (I guess I'd go back to 4.4gr and work back up)?

 

I'm using a 4" barrel mostly for shooting these (I have a 3.5", but don't use it as much - focusing more on one gun in training right now).

 

Thanks in advance!

 

[Steve RA]

I'd stick to the 1.125 OAL with all the loads, when you change a lot of things at once it really leaves you in a quandary as to what to do next.  Then try to have a supply of one powder, one primer that works well and don't change that.

[PaleoMan]

I agree, and up to now, I've been changing only one variable at a time. Initially, it was going from Fiocchi to CCI primers, because I could not find Fiocchi primers, when my supply got low. Then, I changed from Berry's bullets to Precision Bullets due to the price advantage.

 

I was able to find Fiocchi primers again, at a good price for a large quantity, so I bought them again.  It just happened to be a perfect storm, where I had made adjustments to my toolhead and was lazy (in hindsight it would have simplified things), so had a different OAL, and then ran out of the remaining CCI primers, while adjusting load for the new OAL.

 

In any case, this is where I am today... 1.132" OAL, 125gr coated Precision Bullets, CFE Pistol powder, and Fiocchi primers. My PF is too low for minor to use in USPSA, so I need to do something. Right now there are two variables that I can practically change; OAL, and/or load level. It is impractical to toss the Fiocchi primers (12K), or Precision Bullets (6K+).

 

I'm just not sure if lowering the OAL will help the situation, and hence am looking for suggestions on which way to proceed...

 

 

[Steve RA]

If you are going to keep the same OAL, bullets, powder and primers,  then up the powder charge until you hit whatever PF you are looking for.  You should not have any pressure signs if you are just looking for minor power factor.

[PaleoMan]

Would reducing the OAL to 1.125" help the situation?

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Thought you started at 1.125" ?

 

If it feeds and is accurate, I would NOT change the OAL.  Just me.

 

You could reduce it, but could end up with feeding or accuracy problems.

 

I wonder about your chrono technique ?   Chrono about 10-15 feet from the muzzle?

 

How many rounds are you testing ?   I like to test 20 rounds once I've honed in on

a load I like.   And, I like all 20 of them to meet PF (125).

 

I'm seriously mystified by that difference by changing primers - I've NEVER seen

that variance based on the primer alone.

 

It's possible that you may need to clean the wax deposit from your seating die -

that might alter your OAL.   And, check that you've secured the die so it doesn't

move.

 

Good luck  

[PaleoMan]

When I first started using Precision Bullets, I checked the Hodgdon data, and it referenced using 1.125". I worked up loads and that is what I used for a while. After working on my press setup, recently. I ended up with an OAL of 1.132", so I tested a small batch, and it fed fine (just like 1.125") and had fine PF. I started to create cartridges at that (had about 200), when I realized I ran out of primers (thought I had another 1000, but it was LPP).

 

That's when I made some using Fiocchi. I literally loaded up the primers, and made more cartridges on the same setup (load unchanged). I spot measured the OAL of 10 or so of the CCI ones and 10 or so of the Fiocchi ones and they are the same.

 

I'm seeing a PF 13 less, and about 85 fps slower, when testing 20. I use a Lab Radar and have target at 30', with measurements made every 5'. I have my muzzle on a rest, so it is about 3" to the right of the chrono. Used that method for both primers. After seeing the difference, I did try freehand with the Fiocchi primers, holding the muzzle within an inch or two of the chrono. Numbers were very similar.

 

I'm surprised at the difference in PF. Anyone try different primers (with everything else the same)? 

 

Should I get a box of CCI and re-verify the PF/velocity compared to Fiocchi? If it is that wide a variance, should I contact Fiocchi?

Should I lower the OAL and then check with Fiocchi to see if this works better? Will decreasing the OAL, increase the PF/velocity?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by PaleoMan

[IDescribe]

A few things:

1 -- Try to stick to one measurement when reporting chrono data.  You should probably stick with velocity.  In your first post, you state your 4.6gr load was ~128PFwith a velocity of 1060 and wanted to go up to get higher off the power factor floor, which is a good idea at 128PF, EXCEPT that a velocity of 1060 with a 125gr bullet is actually 132.5 PF, not 128.  Sticking with velocity where you're just transposing that reading from the chrono is probably safest.

 

2 -- You're not getting an 85 feet/sec difference from changing primers with CFE pistol and small pistol primers in 9mm Luger.  Something else is different that you're not seeing, possibly as simple as poor record keeping.  

 

3 --  CFE Pistol is slow for 9mm minor.  Choose a powder more appropriate to your application.  Look for a powder that gets you to the velocity you want in the upper half of the charge window, that not right at max.  When you operate slower powders like CFE at light loads, you get inefficient, inconsistent, dirty burns.

 

4 -- A difference of .007 in OAL is likely to produce an average velocity change that's smaller that your SD, making it more or less negligible.

 

5 -- Load data is a field report, not a recipe.  Unless you're loading the exact same manufacture and model of bullet in the load data, there's no point in trying to match the OAL.  Your working OAL should be determined by you for every bullet you use in every pistol you use.  

 

 

In your shoes, I would assume I'd messed up somewhere and had an inaccurate data point or two.  Assuming I still had some CCI primers laying around, I would try to replicate my original data and see if I can find an error, and if I didn't find an error, I'd try to reproduce my Fiocchi data and look for the error there.  I just can't imagine a change in primers resulting in that sort of change in velocity.     If you have no more CCI primers, I'd recommend either buying yet another brand to see what they do, or forgetting about it and working up a new load with what you have, forgetting the old one.  AND I'd go ahead get a different powder.  CFE Pistol is used for 9mm major.  Powders that are good for 9mm major are too slow for 9mm minor.  Use a powder more appropriate to the application at hand.

[PaleoMan]

1 hour ago, IDescribe said:

A few things:

1 -- Try to stick to one measurement when reporting chrono data.  You should probably stick with velocity.  In your first post, you state your 4.6gr load was ~128PFwith a velocity of 1060 and wanted to go up to get higher off the power factor floor, which is a good idea at 128PF, EXCEPT that a velocity of 1060 with a 125gr bullet is actually 132.5 PF, not 128.  Sticking with velocity where you're just transposing that reading from the chrono is probably safest.

 

Ah, that was my mistake in record keeping and processing the data and transcribing it to paper. First, on that batch, the OAL was 1.125" according to my notes. Second, it turns out that for the CCI, the last round's V0 was 1060. The average of all 20 V0's in the spreadsheet from the chrono is 1026.3. In that spreadsheet, the PF is reported on each shot, but it is at 5'.  The average I calculated there for PF, was 127.97. The V5 average is 1023.75. So those do match out.

 

So I had the wrong batch reported and was using the last measured V0, instead of taking the average from the spreadsheet, and I was using V0, instead of V5.

 

Using the average V5 and average PF5 here is what I see...

 

CCI, 1.125", 4.6gr => V5 average 1023.75 (PF5 average 127.97) [chrono data 24]

 

CCI, 1.132", 4.6gr => V5 average 1003.78 (PF5 average 125.48) [chrono data 28]   <<< this is when I wanted to increase load.

 

Fiocchi, 1.132", 4.8gr => V5 average 972.34 (PF5 average 121.55) [chrono data 33] << This is trying the new primers.

 

The last trip I did three sets of measurements, but not sure if one of the first two were CCI (because I knew I had to switch to Fiocchi). I know the last one, 33, was Fiocchi. I think I still have some of the CCI ones at 1.132" and 4.8 gr so I can test those.

 

So, looks like a drop of 20fps going from 1.125" to 1.132" OAL with same CCI primer. Does that seem reasonable?

 

I need to see what the CCI at 1.132" and 4.8gr comes out to, but it is already 30 fps faster comparing 4.6gr CCI to 4.8gr Fiocchi.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, IDescribe said:

 

2 -- You're not getting an 85 feet/sec difference from changing primers with CFE pistol and small pistol primers in 9mm Luger.  Something else is different that you're not seeing, possibly as simple as poor record keeping.  

 

Appears to be the case with some of this. I've been recording the load making in one place, and the testing in another. Trying to keep the two matched up. Need a single place.

 

 

1 hour ago, IDescribe said:

 

3 --  CFE Pistol is slow for 9mm minor.  Choose a powder more appropriate to your application.  Look for a powder that gets you to the velocity you want in the upper half of the charge window, that not right at max.  When you operate slower powders like CFE at light loads, you get inefficient, inconsistent, dirty burns.

Good to know. I'll seek out opinions for powders to use and save the CFE for .45 cal loads.

 

 

1 hour ago, IDescribe said:

 

4 -- A difference of .007 in OAL is likely to produce an average velocity change that's smaller that your SD, making it more or less negligible.

 

5 -- Load data is a field report, not a recipe.  Unless you're loading the exact same manufacture and model of bullet in the load data, there's no point in trying to match the OAL.  Your working OAL should be determined by you for every bullet you use in every pistol you use.  

 

 

In your shoes, I would assume I'd messed up somewhere and had an inaccurate data point or two.  Assuming I still had some CCI primers laying around, I would try to replicate my original data and see if I can find an error, and if I didn't find an error, I'd try to reproduce my Fiocchi data and look for the error there.  I just can't imagine a change in primers resulting in that sort of change in velocity.     If you have no more CCI primers, I'd recommend either buying yet another brand to see what they do, or forgetting about it and working up a new load with what you have, forgetting the old one.  AND I'd go ahead get a different powder.  CFE Pistol is used for 9mm major.  Powders that are good for 9mm major are too slow for 9mm minor.  Use a powder more appropriate to the application at hand.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful suggestions.

 

I'll try to test the CCI @ 4.8gr to compare to the Fiocchi, and I can re-chrono the Fiocchi. Those were done on the same setup, so Ill have apples-to-apples check of primers.

 

Since I have a pile of Fiocchi primers, I'll stick with those for the 9mm. Will need to research into other powders, and in the meantime, could try working up a heavier load with the CFE Pistol.

 

Since 1.125" OAL and 1.132" OAL feed fine, and the 1.125" OAL has a higher velocity, I wonder if I should work up from there (given how I'm messed up already)?

 

 

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

I have to agree with everything IDescribe mentioned - good analysis of the problem.     

[4n2t0]

Here's an example of how the OAL might affect velocity:

 

 

The OAL published in manuals/data is completely useless, always find your own OAL:

How to determine a pistols max OAL

ALWAYS FIND YOUR OWN OAL!!! IGNORE THE OAL LISTED IN MANUALS AND DATA, IT'S USELESS!!!

Fit a new bullet into a fired case (just get it started and remember, no powder; fired primer). If you try 2 or 3 bullet/case combinations you'll find one where the bullet is a snug push fit. Working with your barrel removed from the gun slide this test cartridge into the chamber. Push the test cartridge until the mouth of the case comes to rest on the chamber stop. This will collapse the bullet into the fired case.







Slowly and carefully withdraw the test cartridge and measure its new length. Do this several times until you get a number that can be verified.



If your test cartridge gives you a number like 1.155", subtract .010" of setback (1.155"-.010"), which gives you a max OAL of 1.145" for that barrel/bullet combination.

Notes: 

- If you intend to use your ammo in multiple pistols make sure you load to the shortest OAL obtained. 

- Before making an armoury's worth of ammo make sure your rounds plunk and spin in the barrel(s) and that they function properly in the magazine(s).

- Every time you load a new bullet (e.g. Xtreme ---> Zero or Zero 124gr ---> Zero 147gr) you must perform this procedure. The max OAL will change from bullet to bullet because each bullet has its own unique profile.

Edited June 2, 2018 by 4n2t0

[IDescribe]

 

 

15 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

 

So, looks like a drop of 20fps going from 1.125" to 1.132" OAL with same CCI primer. Does that seem reasonable?

 

 

No, not reasonable. 

 

I once ran a test to measure the effects of OAL change on velocity.  I used N320 and a Montana Gold 124gr JHP, and loaded the same charge weight at 6 different OALs, each OAL changing by .02, from 1.04 to 1.14.   Velocity changes from one step of the ladder to the next ranged from 15 feet/sec to 19 feet/sec.  Oddly enough, that's about what I get with that powder adding a tenth of a grain of powder at the same OAL, so for that combo of bullet and powder, an OAL change of .02 was comparable to a change of .1gr of powder.

GIven that the faster the burn rate of the powder, the greater a change you will see in velocity when you change any of the variables that affect velocity -- given that, I would expect OAL change to produce smaller changes in velocity with CFE Pistol than with N320.  So I would expect less than 17 feet/sec in CFE Pistol for a change of .02 in OAL with a 125gr bullet.  For an OAL change of .007, roughly one third of that, I'd expect a velocity change somwhere below 6 feet/sec, which is to say -- negligible.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

 

16 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

IDescribe:

 

2 -- You're not getting an 85 feet/sec difference from changing primers with CFE pistol and small pistol primers in 9mm Luger.  Something else is different that you're not seeing, possibly as simple as poor record keeping. 

 

 

 

Appears to be the case with some of this.

 

 

You're talking about a change comparable to a change of five or six tenths of a grain of powder.  Changes between standard and magnum primers produce changes a fraction that size in 9mm Luger.  It's impossible to imagine a switch between standard primers doing anything close to that.  If that were the case, different primer brands would require entirely different sets of load data.  A swing of 85 feet/sec is HUGE.

 

 

15 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

 

Good to know. I'll seek out opinions for powders to use and save the CFE for .45 cal loads.

 

 

Common powders that fall into a nice burn rate rangefor 9mm minor:

Winchester 231, HP-38, VV N320, Titegroup, Alliant Sport Pistol

 

 

 

As far as using CFE Pistol for .45 -- .45 is a low pressure cartridge suited to the fastest of the pistol powders for most applications -- Nitro100, VV N310, Bullseye, Clays, Ramshot Comp... with powders like W231, HP-38, and TItegroup still being well suited, but on the slower side of well-suited.

CFE Pistol is super slow burning for .45 for most applications.

I can't stress enough how much you need to factor application into powder choice.

1. What application am I developing a load for?
2. What is the best caliber for that application?
3. What bullet type is best?  Jacketed?  Coated lead?
4. What bullet weight at what velocity is best for that application?
5. What other characteristics are of utmost importance?  Low flash?  Low recoil?  Utmost long range precision?
6. And then finally, what powder is best suited to get that type of bullet of that weight to the ideal velocity while meeting the other desirable characteristics?

CFE Pistol might be a fine powder choice for .45 if I wanted to drive a  200gr bullet 1100 feet/sec, but I'm not sure why I would want to drive a 200gr .45 bullet 1100 feet/sec.   
 

 

[Steve RA]

Probably if you wanted a 220 PF.

[IDescribe]

1 hour ago, Steve RA said:

Probably if you wanted a 220 PF.

 

Exactly.  It's for the new USPSA Extreme Division, where you get C-Zone credit for misses.   

[Joe4d]

Bowling Pins ?
Also did u say u were holding the gun Right up to the chrono ? Ive never seen one that calls for that. Usually you want at least 10 feet away.  Powder is probably screwing up your readings.
Also,  You are getting swings of 40 + fps ? Thats not gonna be an accurate load. Your velocity averages are probably just the result of high SD..
Alot of 9's wont chamber cast bullets that long,  With the right technique and proper powder for the job you should be down in single digit SD.
Tight group or Sport pistol.

[PaleoMan]

13 hours ago, IDescribe said:

 

 

 

No, not reasonable. 

 

I once ran a test to measure the effects of OAL change on velocity.  I used N320 and a Montana Gold 124gr JHP, and loaded the same charge weight at 6 different OALs, each OAL changing by .02, from 1.04 to 1.14.   Velocity changes from one step of the ladder to the next ranged from 15 feet/sec to 19 feet/sec.  Oddly enough, that's about what I get with that powder adding a tenth of a grain of powder at the same OAL, so for that combo of bullet and powder, an OAL change of .02 was comparable to a change of .1gr of powder.

GIven that the faster the burn rate of the powder, the greater a change you will see in velocity when you change any of the variables that affect velocity -- given that, I would expect OAL change to produce smaller changes in velocity with CFE Pistol than with N320.  So I would expect less than 17 feet/sec in CFE Pistol for a change of .02 in OAL with a 125gr bullet.  For an OAL change of .007, roughly one third of that, I'd expect a velocity change somwhere below 6 feet/sec, which is to say -- negligible.

 

 

 

 

You're talking about a change comparable to a change of five or six tenths of a grain of powder.  Changes between standard and magnum primers produce changes a fraction that size in 9mm Luger.  It's impossible to imagine a switch between standard primers doing anything close to that.  If that were the case, different primer brands would require entirely different sets of load data.  A swing of 85 feet/sec is HUGE.

 

 

 

Common powders that fall into a nice burn rate rangefor 9mm minor:

Winchester 231, HP-38, VV N320, Titegroup, Alliant Sport Pistol

 

 

 

As far as using CFE Pistol for .45 -- .45 is a low pressure cartridge suited to the fastest of the pistol powders for most applications -- Nitro100, VV N310, Bullseye, Clays, Ramshot Comp... with powders like W231, HP-38, and TItegroup still being well suited, but on the slower side of well-suited.

CFE Pistol is super slow burning for .45 for most applications.

I can't stress enough how much you need to factor application into powder choice.

1. What application am I developing a load for?
2. What is the best caliber for that application?
3. What bullet type is best?  Jacketed?  Coated lead?
4. What bullet weight at what velocity is best for that application?
5. What other characteristics are of utmost importance?  Low flash?  Low recoil?  Utmost long range precision?
6. And then finally, what powder is best suited to get that type of bullet of that weight to the ideal velocity while meeting the other desirable characteristics?

CFE Pistol might be a fine powder choice for .45 if I wanted to drive a  200gr bullet 1100 feet/sec, but I'm not sure why I would want to drive a 200gr .45 bullet 1100 feet/sec.   
 

 

Let me do a chrono of the CCI vs Fiocchi at 4.8gr CFE Pistol powder, as I have some of the CCI cartridges left, and I made more of the Fiocchi ones. Let's see how things measure out on Monday, when I give it a try.

 

For application, I know what I want to do, but have no ideas on what would be best. Have been going based on what gun shops and friends mention at the club. Would love to hear suggestions, especially on where I should go moving forward...

 

Application... I'm mostly training for defensive shooting. I do live firing practice to complement my dry firing. I've been starting to do USPSA and Steel Challenges as a way to gauge my accuracy and test my training under a stressful situation. I mostly use the 9mm Walther PPQ M2 4" for the competition. Sometimes I'm using the S&W 1911 E Series in 45 cal.

 

Supplies that I have...

- Both 125gn 9mm and 230gn 45 cal Precision bullets (large amount).

- Fiocchi SPP (large amount).

- CCI LPP (only 1000 left), and Winchester LPP (large amount).

- CFE Pistol powder (about 9 LBs left).

 

I know that both 1.125 and 1.132" OALs feed fine.

 

What would be your suggestions going forward, to meet this application, and try not to waste supplies that I have?

 

What adjustments do you think I should make to supplies?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

[PaleoMan]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Bowling Pins ?
Also did u say u were holding the gun Right up to the chrono ? Ive never seen one that calls for that. Usually you want at least 10 feet away.  Powder is probably screwing up your readings.
Also,  You are getting swings of 40 + fps ? Thats not gonna be an accurate load. Your velocity averages are probably just the result of high SD..
Alot of 9's wont chamber cast bullets that long,  With the right technique and proper powder for the job you should be down in single digit SD.
Tight group or Sport pistol.

Using a LabRadar, which is used right next to the gun being shot.

 

I don't have any issues chambering 1.125" up to as high as 1.138". Don't think I've tried longer.

 

I seem to get SD of 15-20 so far. Haven't gotten lower than that. Not really sure why. Try to use the press consistently with speed of pull on the handle.

 

Regards,

 

[wrench459]

10 minutes ago, PaleoMan said:

Application... I'm mostly training for defensive shooting. I do live firing practice to complement my dry firing. I've been starting to do USPSA and Steel Challenges as a way to gauge my accuracy and test my training under a stressful situation. I mostly use the 9mm Walther PPQ M2 4" for the competition. Sometimes I'm using the S&W 1911 E Series in 45 cal.

 

 

-

 

Use the best boolit for self defensive  with a short bbl gun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IDescribe]

13 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

 

I know that both 1.125 and 1.132" OALs feed fine.

 

What would be your suggestions going forward, to meet this application, and try not to waste supplies that I have?

 

What adjustments do you think I should make to supplies?

 

 

You should use the technique someone described in an earlier post to determine maximum OAL with that 125gr Precision bullet in your PPQ's chamber.  You should determine max OAL for every bullet you ever buy in every pistol you own in that caliber, and keep records.  It may well be that 1.125 or 1.132 is the perfect OAL in that pistol with that bullet, and I'm not even recommending you change it at this point, but you should still know the max OAL for that bullet in that chamber.  It's a data point worth having. 

 

As to application: plenty of people use USPSA, IDPA, IPSC, Steel Challenge, etc. to practice for defense.   But YOU need to decide whether or not you're going to try to duplicate defense loads for your sport loads.  Personally, I'd recommend against it.  The skills and confidence you develop in the shooting sports will carry over to self defense as well as they can, regardless of how closely matched the ammo is.   

 

I'd recommend you go ahead and develop loads for the sports, which is to say, one of the faster powders I mentioned in the earlier post, and 124/125gr bullet, which you already have.

 

Use the bullets you have until they're gone so long as they are satisfying your personal accuracy requirements.  When they are gone, replace them with the same, or try another brand, whichever you like.   

 

 

[PaleoMan]

10 hours ago, IDescribe said:

 

You should use the technique someone described in an earlier post to determine maximum OAL with that 125gr Precision bullet in your PPQ's chamber.  You should determine max OAL for every bullet you ever buy in every pistol you own in that caliber, and keep records.  It may well be that 1.125 or 1.132 is the perfect OAL in that pistol with that bullet, and I'm not even recommending you change it at this point, but you should still know the max OAL for that bullet in that chamber.  It's a data point worth having. 

 

As to application: plenty of people use USPSA, IDPA, IPSC, Steel Challenge, etc. to practice for defense.   But YOU need to decide whether or not you're going to try to duplicate defense loads for your sport loads.  Personally, I'd recommend against it.  The skills and confidence you develop in the shooting sports will carry over to self defense as well as they can, regardless of how closely matched the ammo is.   

 

I'd recommend you go ahead and develop loads for the sports, which is to say, one of the faster powders I mentioned in the earlier post, and 124/125gr bullet, which you already have.

 

Use the bullets you have until they're gone so long as they are satisfying your personal accuracy requirements.  When they are gone, replace them with the same, or try another brand, whichever you like.   

 

 

Sounds like a good plan. I'll do the chrono tomorrow, just to compare the CCI and Fiocchi for my sanity.

 

Will try the OAL measurement in the two 9mms that I have and look at getting 1lb of powder to try out with that OAL and see how it does.

 

I'll need to figure out what to do with the CFE PIstol, either use up on the 9mm or see if I can use it on 45 cal (I need to look at the chrono data I did on that a while back).

 

Thanks for the advice!

 

[IDescribe]

2 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

Sounds like a good plan. I'll do the chrono tomorrow, just to compare the CCI and Fiocchi for my sanity.

 

Keep in mind that if these cartridges were already loaded from the same batch that you would still be subject to the possibility that they were loaded differently than you think.  Maybe your charge weight was wrong.  Maybe you labeled them wrong.. 

 

When  I talked about seeing if you could duplicate data. I was talking about building new cartridges from scratch. 

[PaleoMan]

7 hours ago, IDescribe said:

 

Keep in mind that if these cartridges were already loaded from the same batch that you would still be subject to the possibility that they were loaded differently than you think.  Maybe your charge weight was wrong.  Maybe you labeled them wrong.. 

 

When  I talked about seeing if you could duplicate data. I was talking about building new cartridges from scratch. 

Yeah, I don't have any more CCI primers so I can't do new samples of both CCI and Fiocchi primers with everything else the same, which would be a perfect retest. 

 

I have found the last batch with CCI primers (I'm positive). I thought I'd re-chrono those to see if the measurements are the same as before (that I did a correct measurement).

 

I made 20 of the cartridges with Fiocchi primers, knowing they'll have the same bullet and OAL, but potentially different load (I had to set the drop, so it could potentially be different, if the drop before was incorrect/different). In any case, I'm curious as to what they chrono as and what the rough comparison is to the CCI set.

 

I guess I could clean out the bullet puller, and pull one of the CCI primer ones, and try to collect all the powder and see what the drop is, but not sure it would be worth it, given I may not get all the powder collected.

 

Most of this is water under the dam, at this point...and more of a curiosity.

 

Forward going though, I'll measure the OAL, and adjust the press to that setting, and then work up a load with the new powder and see how it works out for a minor load.

 

Regards,

[PaleoMan]

On 6/2/2018 at 5:21 AM, IDescribe said:

 

Common powders that fall into a nice burn rate rangefor 9mm minor:

Winchester 231, HP-38, VV N320, Titegroup, Alliant Sport Pistol

 

 

 

As far as using CFE Pistol for .45 -- .45 is a low pressure cartridge suited to the fastest of the pistol powders for most applications -- Nitro100, VV N310, Bullseye, Clays, Ramshot Comp... with powders like W231, HP-38, and TItegroup still being well suited, but on the slower side of well-suited.

CFE Pistol is super slow burning for .45 for most applications.

 

Curious, do you know what CFE Pistol is targeting for an application?

 

When I first started reloading, I was going to try Power Pistol powder (because I saw it in a lot of data books), but they didn't have it locally and said that CFE Pistol was similar. 

I've since heard that it is a "medium" burning powder, and it sounds like it's used for both 9mm and .45 cal pistols.

 

Is Power Pistol also a medium burn?

 

Is the idea hear that a faster burn will be better for getting the desired velocity for minor?

 

Trying to learn a bit more...

 

 

 

[PaleoMan]

I did the OAL measurement. With the 4" Walther PPQ, it looks like 1.144" would be what I use (accounting for the 0.01" reduction).  For the Sig P938 3", it looks like 1.152" (this one had more variation, and I ended up checking about 10 bullet/case combos, before getting several consistent.

 

Since I shoot the most with the Walther, I'll try the 1.144" OAL.

 

Wondering if I should try it with CFE Pistol, or move to a new powder and try it with that (thinking W 231, HP-38, or Tightgroup)?

 

Later, I'll need to sort out what to use with the .45 cal 230gr Precision Bullets.

[4n2t0]

1) Load to the shortest OAL, that way it will/should work in either pistol.

 

2) Don't take this the wrong way but you're all over the place, this isn't all that difficult. Since you have an OAL (1.14) that works in all your pistols (for that specific bullet) you should make three sets of 20 test rounds using CFE Pistol. Start with 20 rounds at 4.6gr, then 20 rounds at 4.8gr, lastly 20 rounds at 5.0gr. Don't mix and match components or change the OAL half way through the process, make them all the same. Chrono the loads, see what works and run with it.

 

3) Much is made about powder selection but the truth is that many powders from slow(er) to fast(er) can work well in 9mm. I load WSF which is considered fairly slow for 9mm minor but it's what I like and very accurate. I guess what I'm saying is that there's no reason to abruptly abandon CFE pistol, you have it so you might as well use it! If you want to move to something faster next time (Titegroup, HP-38/231 [they're the same powder], N320 etc.) then start the process all over again.

Edited June 4, 2018 by 4n2t0